Information supports Intelligent Design

Short answer: no it does not.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: surfer_soul

It matters a lot, because they are two seperate things, computer is a machine, AI is software. These are not the same.

If information exists without intelligence what then would be no point to it? I can’t think of any information that isn’t used or applied in some way, either by nature or by us in our endeavours.

the application of information without intelligence is existence.

Do you think I don’t know the difference between software and the machine it runs on? Your not even answering my point just sidetracking the issue.

The last statement you made about the application of information without intelligence is existence is nonsensical.

We are in Beta testing still, the devs will sort it in a few million years relax ....

All the best

a reply to: Romeopsi

Do you think the universe is like a computer?

They more science learns about the human body, how complex it is and how it functions with all parts totally dependent on perfect synchronization the harder it becomes to ignore the similarities to the workings of a very complex computer.

The question for me has become "who is the creator and why?".

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
If anyone thinks that the human body has been intelligently designed (internally draining lungs due to current upright posture, potentially lethal vestigial organs like the appendix), then I can only point and laugh hysterically at them.
The need to create a god or gods to explain how the world was born out of a pile of dung or something (insert creation myth here) is understandable for hunter-gatherers in the Bronze Age. However, it's time for humanity to leave such childish things behind us.

In a universe so vast, where almost anything is possible, you might do well to reconsider your position. Add in the fact that there are strong indications of a multiverse, and such dismissive arrogance would seem foolish at best. There are questions that we are very unlikely to answer, but just because we can’t it doesn’t mean there is no answer.

originally posted by: stosh64
RIP Pastor Missler, I really miss his teachings.

S&F

When I look at the world design is blatantly apparent, yet others are blind to it and believe this is all some accident and happened by random chance. smh

John 1:5

The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Exactly! and I still go to Missler's website to read the articles and watch his videos. There's just so much information.
www.khouse.org...

originally posted by: Romeopsi
a reply to: neoholographic

Starred&Flagged!

This post was full of information (no pun intended).

Do you think the universe is like a computer? There’s a lot of information as you say, how did it get there?

In many ways yes. It's Designed by Intelligence to process vasts amounts of data. It takes intelligence to find correlations in the data and reduce the uncertainty. This is what AI does. As humans, we can't find correlations in these growing data sets because they're becoming so large. You now have AI to mimick intelligence and it can find correlations in vast data sets in ways that are similar to our intelligence.

Science is now saying spacetime could be a quantum error correcting code like the ones used in quantum computers. Your web browser and search engine also use error correcting codes. These codes are used to protect information that's encoded as it's being copied.

How Space and Time Could Be a Quantum Error-Correcting Code
www.quantamagazine.org...

Scientist are saying that an advanced civilization might be using black holes as quantum computers.

It's Logical That Aliens Are Using Black Holes As Computers, Scientists Say

If you want to find an alien, you need to think like an alien—preferably a smart one. That’s the advice of a new study that suggests scientists searching for extraterrestrials (a.k.a. organizations like SETI) might want to focus their attention on emissions from black holes. Why? Because according to these scientists, any respectable super-advanced civilization wouldn’t be caught dead without a black hole quantum computer.

However, physicists Gia Dvali from the Max Planck Institute and Zaza Osmanov from the Free University of Tbilisi think it’s worth considering the possibility that advanced civilizations would use black holes as quantum computers.

“Black holes are the most efficient capacitors of quantum information. It is thereby expected that all sufficiently advanced civilizations ultimately employ black holes in their quantum computers,” the authors write in the paper, which was posted on arXiv and hasn’t been peer reviewed. “The alien quantum computers will radiate in ordinary particles such as neutrinos and photons within the range of potential sensitivity of our detectors.”

“Up until now, we have completely overlooked a natural direction for SETI in form of high energy neutrinos and other particles produced by the Hawking radiation of artificial black holes,” the study authors told Universe Today.

So maybe the universe is filled with the buzzing signals of black hole quantum computers storing data with technology unfathomable to our simple Type-0.75 minds—and we’ve just been tuned in to the wrong channel.

www.popularmechanics.com...

Black holes are like these information hard drives. When something falls into a black hole, the information or distinctions between things becomes spread out and encoded onto the 2D event horizon of the black hole. This information becomes hidden and unknown within entropy. With a powerful quantum computer, you could decode this information or create small artificial black holes in a collider and use them.

The point is, there's all of this known information in the universe. This is why you have science. Scientist discover this known information. How did this information become known naturally without intelligence to find correlations in the data and reduce the uncertainty? Here's an example.

Let's say you have a data set of women with breast cancer from 1950 to 2023. You have AI look through this data set and it finds a correlation in the data. There's 5% of women that get prescribed a certain medication for nausea. You see that the women in this 5% have overall better health than women that's not taking this medication. Humans will see this and then conduct larger trials to see if it's a statistical fluke or is there a large enough effect size for this medication to become useful for treating the overall health of breast cancer patients not just for nausea. You do the trials and the effect size is enough for this medication to become more widely used among women with breast cancer for better overall health.

This information that was hidden in the data and unknown becomes known because intelligence can find correlations in the data and reduce uncertainty.

This is why the universe has to be designed by intelligence. How can nature make all of this hidden and unknown information known? You have fully formed galaxies forming 600 million years after the big bang. Information about the universe has been becoming known since the cosmic microwave background.

The Bible tells us this in Genesis.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The earth was without form and void, then God said Let there be Light and brought order to the chaos. This is why Jesus is called the Word and He said, I'm the Light of the world.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

a reply to: surfer_soul


lol
This is what you said.

It doesn’t matter wether computers are AI or not, intelligence is needed to program them and they can in turn produce intelligent results.

doesn't sound like you know the difference between computer and software.

Information is existence means that before something is information it is potential/possibility, once you got sthg that gives you real information, be it spin, mass, direction, etc you have something that isn't just possibility anymore but actually really exists.
makes perfect ssense

originally posted by: neoholographic
There can't be any information without an intelligent mind.

Yeah there is.

If a Cat gets chased by a Dog, it remembers and can even reason that it shouldn't go near the Dog again. That is Information and Knowledge. And that's an Animal thinking.

_____

Knowledge and Information are learned.

Either learned from Experience, Explanation, or Reading.

If a ancient human knocks two rocks together and makes a spark, it can remember that Experience.

If that ancient human then tells another ancient human what they did, that's Explanation.

If that ancient human puts the Experience on a clay tablet, and another ancient human sees and understands it, that's Reading.

It is memory that stores Knowledge and Information.

It's more likely that Life was created on a Saturday Night in the backseat of the Planet.

The fact that Abortions exist tells me that there's no Intelligent Design.

Have you met some of the people your are crediting with Intelligence?

a reply to: neoholographic

Mine is not a "blind faith." It is based in part on observation and deduction. A person who denies intelligent design in the cosmos is really placing blind faith in the power of nothingness to create the ordered chaos out of the void.

I do not have that much "faith."

a reply to: neoholographic

Solipsism kills.

But I'll reduce this to your dilemma proposed.

If you're going to say the universe happened without Intelligent Design, then you have to explain how there's so much known information. How did nature reduce the uncertainty where we have discovered fully formed galaxies 600 million years after the Big Bang.

No I don't. Information must be preserved, right? And I don't even need to touch the nebulous fallacy-crafted entropy thing you are propping up as "the thing that can't be bypassed".

It's not an absolute apologetic "gotcha!" argument people think it is.

Kinda half-assing this one.

* For the abridged answer, skip to D now.

You can't talk about entropy in the universe without talking black holes. They are the epitome of increased disorder in this closed system that is the universe.

What about the black hole information paradox? Information can't be destroyed, because that violates quantum physics.

And Hawking radiation is thermal and can't carry information. But, if quantum gravity is thrown into the mix Hawking Radiation effectively becomes non-thermal and carries information.

So paradox solved.

Now the same paradox has to apply in reverse to the singularity at the big bang. Like information can't be destroyed, it can't be created.

But the big bang postulates information came from nothing.

And before you think that agrees with you, here's where it doesn't.

It's not the only possibility. Not the only way for information to spring forth from the singularity.

Nowhere near it.

It postulates a single closed system universe came into existence... that's it.

You can make option A "God". But myopic arrogance asserts it's the only possible option.

Other options include.

B) Our universe started from the black hole of another and transferred information from the previous universe.

C) Field Theories. Particularly with the speed of light in a scalar "primordial" vacuum.

And finally the big one.

D) STRING THEORY & M-THEORY

Both the 10 and 11 dimension varieties absolutely destroy all information problems of the Big bang, singularity.

In a calibri yau manifold existence all information related questions are answered by the implications of the theory itself.

Why are the laws of physics the way they are?

With infinite variations of all possible laws of physics, our universe has to exist as is. Temperature limits for phase change and decoupling. Everything. In another universe the recombination happens differently. Maybe 6 fundimental laws. Not that special, this is just the "world" we have access too.

And on that, you should see the information in higher dimension compactification, it makes even the crazy odds apologists come up with look like a lotto scratcher.

In summary, the irrefutable information dilemma is false. It fails to consider the scope the information and other vectors for information to enter our universe, including one's that require no intelligence whatsoever.

You and I have an answer, not the answer.

a reply to: Degradation33

Oh I forgot, I am suppose to back up the theory of the multiverse with some religious text in bold:

Bhagavad Gita 11:5-12 - My dear Arjuna, O son of Prtha, behold now My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine forms, multicolored like the sea.

O best of the Bharatas, see here the different manifestations of Adityas, Rudras, and all the demigods. Behold the many things which no one has ever seen or heard before.

Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely

But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence.

Sanjaya said: O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna.

Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes. It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed in many garbs. He was garlanded gloriously, and there were many scents smeared over His body. All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna.

If hundreds of thousands of suns rose up at once into the sky, they might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.

Could be that with or without the divinity. Or both. God is the infinite multiverse.

And toss on neverending cyclical information transfer to that list of other answers since the Hindu have been brought up.

a reply to: cooperton

You said:

Intelligent minds created computers though, thereby maintaining the requirement of intelligence.

Exactly, you can't have information without intelligence!

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: surfer_soul


lol
This is what you said.

It doesn’t matter wether computers are AI or not, intelligence is needed to program them and they can in turn produce intelligent results.

doesn't sound like you know the difference between computer and software.

Information is existence means that before something is information it is potential/possibility, once you got sthg that gives you real information, be it spin, mass, direction, etc you have something that isn't just possibility anymore but actually really exists.
makes perfect ssense

That’s because software needs hardware to run on and the combination is called a computer, nobody referring to a computer is referring to hardware alone.

It sounds like you’re referring to the quantum world with spin, mass, direction etc.. it sounds like what you’re saying is nothing actually exists it is just potential until you have some info about it. Something along the lines of the observer effect, is that what you’re getting at?

I

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Ahhh, such a childish view. Afterall, if our bodies in their fallen state are imperfect that's definitely evidence that there's no God. Lmao. Imagine thinking that's a winning argument.

a reply to: surfer_soul

weird that huh?
I mean all the information is physically stored on the computer and yet it needs software to run.
If we want to take that as allegory for information stored in the universe I think it is pretty obvious:
Information can exist without intelligence but it doesn't get interpreted or processed it just is.

along the lines of the observer effect

no observer no. Interaction with other units that store information.

originally posted by: Peeple

weird that huh?
I mean all the information is physically stored on the computer and yet it needs software to run.
If we want to take that as allegory for information stored in the universe I think it is pretty obvious:
Information can exist without intelligence but it doesn't get interpreted or processed it just is.

I've never known any computer hardware or software to come to be without intelligence.

originally posted by: Sucellus
Short answer: information does not support intelligent design

Well it certainly doesn't support unintelligent design.

a reply to: cooperton

You said:

Well it certainly doesn't support unintelligent design.

Great response!

a reply to: cooperton

what's your definition of 'intelligence'?

Cosmology is very different than biological earth based evolution.
It's a good topic to consider.
I just want to say the young earth, young universe is a Strawman Argument, nobody that studies this topic in depth can believe this anymore. A universe created just over 6000 years ago, defies every bit of science we know today, especially how long light take to travel from distant stars in far away galaxies, the light could have left millions or even billions of years ago and we are just seeing it now.

The big bang theory of energy transforming into matter is very feasible, E=MC2. I have no reason to question God using his never ending energy to create matter, billions of years ago.

I was watching a video about different classes of civilizations that could exist in the universe and it basically described a type 6 as one that God would inhabit outside our physical universe in a 4th dimension, that physical forms could not enter. So interesting that theory in science is actual talking about something that is true.