3 good questions for christians/creationists

reply to post by wildtimes


Im not too concerned. U act like i tell you to # off every other sentence. Lol why am i so bad? Because i dont agree with u? Then this other kid acts like im the only one forcing my opinion on people. What are you guystrying to accomplish here again? btw dont you people have work? Sorry i can't answer quick.er

Originally posted by MikeHawke
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

The huge difference between then and Jesus is THEY NEVER CLAIMED TO BE GODS SON. So they are not at all like Jesus. So if someone said im the Son if God tomorrow, youd think hes crazy. Now why did someone like that mean so much back then? if he wasn't looked at as you would view a man saying that same thing in the street tomorrow theni have to believe he was more than just "some guy who was a great teacher"

A lot of people have claimed a lot of things over the years. Claiming something does not make it true.

Here is a list of a LOT of people who claimed similar things like jesus did.

en.wikipedia.org...

A lot of other religions offer a variety of other entities including gods and half gods. I do not see any reason why the claim of jesus is superior to those religions.

IF he really claimed to be the son of god then maybe your professor was right about the lunacy after all?

In the end I only care about his message, and as I said most of that was really good!

Still doesn´t change the fact that a lot of other religions deliver the same messages and I still can´t see why especially the bible should be the one.

reply to post by MikeHawke


Jesus pbuh never claimed to be son of God as you imagine.
The term Father was used for God and because of that humans can be called as children(sons & daughters)
Jesus pbuh addressed himself as 'son of man' all the time.

You accuse him of claiming something he never did and then say either he is god or liar etc.

Interestingly Paul does the same, he said, (paraphrasing) "if Christ din't die for our sins then christianity is false and my teaching is waste"

he hoped people will say,"no, no, we believe you O truthful one"

reply to post by MikeHawke

Im not too concerned. U act like i tell you to # off every other sentence. Lol why am i so bad? Because i dont agree with u? Then this other kid acts like im the only one forcing my opinion on people. What are you guystrying to accomplish here again? btw dont you people have work? Sorry i can't answer quick.er

I have kids your age, based on those photos, and I am retired. So, no. I don't have "work."

What s "wrong" with your behavior is that you are being extreme - extremely rude, and extremely off-base and sound, actually as if it is you who is suffering from lunacy. And you are assuming the other member is a "kid" - I don't know how old Nightaudit is, but he at least speaks like an adult and is reasonable and respectful. You sound like a poorly-educated, brainwashed/indoctrinated, bigoted bully with a big mouth. I only just first ran across both of you in this thread, and I can tell you that he is delightful to speak with. So is logical7, and I've known him for some time...we are of different beliefs on many things, but all 3 of us are willing to discuss things and listen.

That's why you are so "bad." You are browbeating people with your skewed version of this topic, calling people names, and you are NOT LISTENING. Yes, you are FORCING your opinion on others, and if you really think that verbal abuse and mockery will convert anyone worthwhile to "your side", you are mistaken - on the contrary, you may find yourself with a fabulous support system of others JUST LIKE YOU. And the lot of you are living miserable spritual lives and making others miserable while you're at it. This is how "preachers" work on poor souls like yours...I actually pity you, Mike, and hope that one day you'll manage to free yourself of this dismal thinking and unpleasant style that you were taught.

If you were taught it as a child, it's certainly not your fault, and it was sinful for adults to do this to you.
If you learned it or adopted it later in your life, then I fear you were suffering and damaged to begin with, and found this the only way to cope with your dis-ease and self-loathing.

Think about it. We are trying to accomplish the spreading of common sense, disabuse people of their warped interpretations and fear of an imagined "hell" and other religious myths, and present a much wider, more peaceful world-view.

The point is actually love, not fear. Please wake up. You seem to have a very touchy trigger (I know I sometimes tend to overreact myself - but at 54 I'm learning to control it better)....and are sending mixed signals. Those pics of you with those animals showed a handsome, apparently caring young man, but your WORDS, Mike, show ugliness, fear, shame, and very shaky confidence, for all your bluster and condemnation.

You said animals are "empty vessels". THAT ALONE made me instantly offended. I had hoped you might see things differently if we 'talked' about it, but you have not shown the slightest real effort to LISTEN and THINK OUTSIDE YOUR UGLY BOX.

I hope you manage to heal somehow. There are people who want to help. Spitting on them is, well, self-defeating, and "lunatic" behavior.

Hope that answers your questions. I suspect your heart rate is up, and you are already too pissed and defensive to let it soak in. But there it is. When you are calm, maybe in a day or two if that's what it takes, I hope you will reread this answer to your question.

I wish you all the best for your future...please find some peace and explore some other ideas before you implode.

Here's the deal. If you met me in real life i highly doubt u would think that of me. All the doctors wherei work seem to think im oneof the most polite,kindhearted, and smart people they know. my argumentitive personality was made by my upbringing. I apologize. I try to stop myself sometines but what makes it so difficult is the one-way-street mentality of people. For instance gay rights. I have no problem with it. Its when that person defending gay rights wants you to respect their view like it should also be yours, but then that same person thinks nothing of putting down someone's religion by trying to show u the holes in it. How bout this for a hole if being gay wad the "correct" way, we would have no more generations of people coming into this world. Now, if what i just said upset u. You can see why i get so defensive and offensive with this subject. I appreciate your respect though. Ill try to tone it down. I apologize for my words i used.

Btw im 24 so i don't even want to act completely adult yet. I got plenty of time for that later

And btw nighaudit that's not My professor. That's C.S. Lewis. The chronicles of narnia dude


P.p.s. this is all being done on my phone now so excuse my grammar errors plz.

Originally posted by Nightaudit
Hi guys,


I just wanted to get your take on a few points that always made me kind of doubt in the bible and it´s validity as THE holy book.

My intention here is not to step on anyone´s toes, but to try to understand how believers view certain things. Maybe I can learn something from you or at the very least I can understand your position better.

I would like to focus this thread on the following three points that kinda sum my doubts up.

1: If you were born in a non christian country with a different main religion, would you still somehow end up a christian?

2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

3: I personally would detest the god who pulled that stunt with Abraham and Isaac. Or the god who completely wipes out whole ecosystems including innocent animals, just because he doesn´t like the ways of men. I wouldn´t WANT that to be true.


Those are the three big ones that made me leave church. I know that the religion you choose is mainly dependent on what country you grow up in and what your parents believe in. And as not believing in another god is one of the 10 commandments, that means that the majority of the worlds population will go to hell without even a chance.

The second one is obvious. Most christians cherry pick, and the ones that don´t are in the westboro baptist church. What I would like to know is how you justify the selection for yourself.

And lastly, I regard the christian god as a pretty selfish and ego driven deity. I am sorry to be so harsh, but who in his right mind would want to follow a god who does atrocious things like that?


That´s it I guess. I just wanted to get that out there and see what you guys think about it. Again, no disrespect to anyone, but things are there to be discussed.

Oh, and if you have any questions for me (I believe in god and know science to be correct as well) feel free to ask anything you want. That road has to go both ways of course.

I see where you are going with this and don't know if I have any of the answers you are looking for but will try.
Your first question is irrelevant because I live here and though I was born a catholic I migrated away from the catholic doctrine at an early age. I only started to believe in God again over the past several years after a long
intense struggle with addiction but did not take up any of the popular faiths! My faith today is more ingrained into
the ideology of Gnostic Christianity ! Which is a belief in questioning my beliefs!

This was not something that happened overnight but happened because of the disgust I feel with traditional religious hierarchy! I believe many of us today are only punishing ourselves because of the sins of those in religious power whom hide the truth! We allow our emotions to dismantle our beliefs in God! We choose to think that God should take a more hands on approach in our well being but we forget it's our spirit that God is choosing to develop and not our lives!

This brings us to your second question of how do I cope with the wrongs and contradictions in the bible?
This is a question many of us have great difficulty in dealing with but because the bible was written by men
we can assume that it has been used like all great things of power to advance an agenda! I am sure that parts of the bible are true and parts of it have been made up by men to maintain an advantage! We can assume that what is truly evil is made up by man! I realize you are thinking now how do I know that the whole bible wasn't fiction? I don't know. At least not for sure but I have faith that there is something more to what we can perceive
with our limited senses! There is an intellectual being beyond what we know or anything we can understand
whom is helping us to evolve into a peace loving society! I don't believe that God would want us to enslave others, beat woman, hate gays or any of the other hateful text that appears in the bible! I choose to exclude those things from my beliefs because if I know they are wrong then God sure as hell does!

As for the third question and Gods choice to exterminate ecosystems because of his detest for humanity! If God truly is our creator then we have no right to question or judge God for what he deems necessary for our behalf!
It seems arrogant and presumptuous for us to even question God.

As for God being selfish or ego driven. This is pure nonsense! Ego and selfishness are human traits.

reply to post by MikeHawke


hey mike,
if you are planning to stay in this section or any forum here for that matter, you should learn to tolerate. You may get offended but you can't respond debasingly. Your faith will be challenged, maybe even ridiculed but its you who is choosing to come and debate/discuss. Right?

Originally posted by Nightaudit

Originally posted by NorthBlizzard
reply to post by Nightaudit

 

1. Technically, yes. Because it is all you've known. It's like if you had a child that grew up as an orphan, then found you later and wanted you as their parent. You wouldn't deny you're child just because they had other parents for most of their life, would you? Churches are man made, I'm not saying they're bad or wrong at all, but they aren't perfect. I've always felt the way to Heaven is to just be kind to everyone, no matter the religion.

2. The bible is the word of God but again, since made by humans it cannot be perfect. Most of the message in the bible is about peace and respect.

3. Satan is a fallen angel so he's not pure evil, just a confused soul. He is used to test us, but that doesn't mean he is all evil. He does do bad, and he wants us to work against Jesus out of jealously though.

1: Churches are man made. They indeed are, and I too felt that the right way is to be as kind to everyone as possible. It still contradicts the teachings of the roman-catholic church and the pope, doesn´t it?

2: I am sorry, but either the bible is the word of god (and therefore perfect) or it´s not. There is no middle ground.

3: I am sort of aware of the supposed history as a fallen angel. Do you think of him as an entity that exists today and is actively trying to harm people?

How can the word of God be written by men?
Nothing is perfect!
I somehow doubt God to even be a perfect being!
In being perfect there would be nowhere to go, nothing to learn, sounds to me like a depressing existence!

reply to post by MikeHawke


Thank you very much, apology accepted and appreciated. I would like to discuss these things more.

No, your words did not offend me this time - I am indifferent to homosexuality, but I do believe that persons of that persuasion should have the same 'legal' next-of-kin rights as heterosexuals, and the same respect given to other adults. You see, people should be treated with dignity, and their views at least HEARD. Every person has a story to tell.

I see my 'job' as member of this society to listen to those stories, to validate that the PERSON is the best expert on themselves, that they are entitled to make their OWN decisions and life the way they CHOOSE to. It's not the job of others to "tell them their lives," or "fix" them based on value systems imposed from without.

I suppose it would be fair for people to accuse me of trying to push MY values onto others - honestly, the most I can hope to do is be HEARD, and to speak up about what I see going on, based on my own education and experience, and to ASK QUESTIONS to try to determine how the person sees the world, why they see it that way. It is when I see actions that would cause damage to a person's dignity and good health, I speak up.

My main concerns are the protection of children, who - as you stated - are profoundly influenced by their upbringings. As they grow into maturity, they can either BUY INTO everything that their upbringing put onto them, OR they can REBEL and refuse to live or think in that manner. Or a combination of both.

That is the job of youths - from adolescence through about age 25-30 (depending on the individual). The thing is, the human brain is NOT fully developed until well into a person's 20s - and the developmental job of adolescence is to find out "who I am", "how I want to live," "who I want as my friends.", etc. Its imperative for parents to allow their children to reach their OWN conclusions - and yes, I get furious when I see kids brainwashed (see Jesus Camp) and molded into people who are afraid, hateful, believe they are unworthy sinners, and proceed to condemn anyone who doesn't see things that way.

I fight for the rights of children to be reared with a well-rounded, sound understanding of their options, for them to determine for THEMSELVES what they believe, and not be ridiculed into silence or make decisions based on fear of hell or being shunned. Jesus taught LOVE - whoever he was, he was NOT the product of that tyrannical, awful, psychopathic, punitive God that the extreme fundamentalists seem to think was the real-deal.

It's been established scientifically that belief in a punitive, angry God causes mental health issues: general and social anxiety, obsession, compulsion, low self-esteem - stunted development, actually.

Belief in an indifferent God does not produce any such symptoms (nor does it send people to 'hell'), and belief in a loving God can actually REDUCE those very symptoms PRODUCED by the belief in an angry tyrannical God. If people are miserable, it helps them to figure out why and to learn new strategies. Coping strategies are formed in childhood, based on the family system into which they are born. Those coping strategies may be self-destructve or counter-productive, however, and when they eventually STOP WORKING, the person finds themselves floundering.

I actually believe everyone is doing their VERY BEST to survive, but that some coping strategies for life's difficulties cause even more problems eventually than they seemed to alleviate when they first developed.

That's my point of view, my agenda, and my 'work' - even retired, I'm still doing it, just happen to be doing it here instead of in an office making appointments.

So, Mike, next, I would ask you three things:

how old are you?,
do you really mean to tell me that when you look your dogs in the eye, when they are happy to see you at the end of the day (if they are), or cower under a table (if they do), when they try to please you and want to be near you, or fear you, that they are EMPTY VESSELS? ReallY?

And third, what do you think about your 'upbringing' now that you are no longer a child, but a youth?

Originally posted by Nightaudit
Hi guys,


I just wanted to get your take on a few points that always made me kind of doubt in the bible and it´s validity as THE holy book.

My intention here is not to step on anyone´s toes, but to try to understand how believers view certain things. Maybe I can learn something from you or at the very least I can understand your position better.

I would like to focus this thread on the following three points that kinda sum my doubts up.

The problem here is that you're thinking the way man thinks, not as God thinks. And you can't hope to think like God thinks. You can however understand that what we consider to be oh so horrible, is not necessarily so horrible to God.


Or, you know, you can choose to not believe in God. Believe that we're not special, that we're chance, and that nothing just magically sprang into existence and called the universe. Man may not understand the grand scheme of things, and will always search for some origin truth. But we are man, and no one in their right mind, that's not retarded or desperate to find scientific answers, would deny the truth of the matter. That truth is that things just don't simply burst into existence on their own accord because a trillion billion years had passed and it was just time to happen. Life is so wonderfully complex that I am offended at the very suggestion that time and chance gave birth to it.

Men whom deny God are men whom fear a greater power than themselves. To accept God is to accept that YOU are not the master. YOU are the children. And YOU have rules you must follow. YOUR fate is in his hands. For many people that is impossible to accept. If God is not here with us then perhaps he doesn't exist. Perhaps he is just a myth to make people feel better. Perhaps science is right. Blah blah blah. Whatever makes it easier for them to sleep at night after a long day of doing whatever the hell they want.


So, you know, it's your call. God gave you free will. That is why he left us to let faith rule the land. IMHO, of course, since I don't dare presume to know what God thinks. Those that choose to discard the truth staring them in the face shall perish as they believe they will after they die. What do they care? After all, they weren't around for all those thousands of years before, they won't have the slightest clue once they die, either. So get laid often, drink as much as possible, keep stuffing food in your face, keep fighting over material objects, and keep making that money til the day you die. You choose to live without God then you choose to spend eternity without God. Plain and simple.

But of course, some people choose to believe that it is okay to live however they please and there will still be paradise waiting for them on the other side. You know, just 'cause it's the way of things. Like I said, believe whatever makes you sleep easier at night. I believe that we think juuuust enough like God to have an opinion on what's good and what's bad and God will judge us accordingly. But there is one sure fire way to eternal paradise, and that's through Jesus.

Jesus said he hadn't come to condem the Law but to fulfull it and that the only way to the Father was through him. At that point Humans were given opportunity to receive forgivenes and acceptance into the body of Christ through grace. It's Christianity your refering to the moment youu bring his name into it, meaning we are to govern our lives by the New Testament not the OLD. Christ was about Love and Peace, never condonning or encouraging acts of violence against fellow humans. It was his unwillingness to be a Temporal leader of the movement to depose Rome from Judea that got him crucified. Had he simply been flesh and blood and had done as the masses demanded he would likely not have been crucified as he was, a lonely broken/beaten and humiliated mass of a human, hung to slowly die and to be defiled and riduculed by the very ones he came to save from eternal torment. The 10 commandments really have little to do with Christianity and are from the Old Test which covers the lives and conduct of persons of the Jewish faith, not that they have no validity and/or power over the Christian but are the tennants and roots of Law serving an anchor for civilized society. Regarding the reading of the word by others as a precursor to his return, it only says he wouldn't return until "all" had heard the gospel of his truth. As hard as it may be for many to accept, if the creator was/is displeased with it's creation and/or actions of such, it has the authority/right to do as it wishes with it. Sorry, it doesn't need anyones permission and I don't think it's ever really cared what we Humans thought about it's choices and their consequences. Hard as it is to accept, GOD does not have to abide by our commands, thoughts, or even Laws, wether physical or social! That's what I find so humorous, people actually ascribe to the prime mover, the laws of nature as they understand them, when in fact the prime mover created all that is seen and is known, as it pleased it, not in concern as to how it pleases or concerns it's creation. Just like the parenting of the human child, the child regularly feels the parent is wrong, has no right and/or cruel and callous in their actions or pronouncements relative to the childs wants etc... when infact we as parents find it our duty and responsibility to tell our children no and to attempt to control them as a way to protect them from selves and others. Over time God is seen as such a figure and it's nearly imossible for MOST human life forms to accept their powerlessness and relegation to secondary (status) creation to prime mover and it's other spiritual creation (Angles and Heavanly Beings). As a species we humans (in general) are a spoiled, selfish, self centered, self seeking blight on the rest of creation and we will pay for just that. Those who acknwoledge and accept the gift of grace through a profession in the life, power and glory of the Christ have the opportunity to one day trade in this temporal vessel for release from the bounds which hold us to the physical.
For the true believer it's not about the condemnation of others but the removal of the vail which seperates us from him. I only wish that humans humble themselves to see their lives and the lives of so many around them will be profoundly changed (for the better) if they would accept the gift that is offered on Christs behalf. [Theres a whole lot of power in just being powerless.]

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by MikeHawke

 

how old are you?,
do you really mean to tell me that when you look your dogs in the eye, when they are happy to see you at the end of the day (if they are), or cower under a table (if they do), when they try to please you and want to be near you, or fear you, that they are EMPTY VESSELS? ReallY?

And third, what do you think about your 'upbringing' now that you are no longer a child, but a youth?

edit on 19-4-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

ok its break time so i can use the computer in my office..

1. Im only 24, so i still got growing up to do. however, at the same time, my older friends look up to me so i guess im mature for my age, i just dont always act it.

2. you have me incorrectly profiled as an animal hater from my "empty vessels" line. i actually have this crazy affinity for animals. i dotn know why but they always seem to act different with me than anyone. like all those monkeys. they reach out to hold my hand and id stay there for 10 minutes holding his hand and talking to him. do i think my words are understood by him? hell no. do i understand him? again no. but as you stated before animals interact with body language so clearly they have a personality of some sort. everything has to have one to be alive or else it would be a vegtable of a creature that just kinda sits there with a blank stare.

but say an ant moves faster than another ant. does that ant have an athletic personality? no. he just does what hes learned to do over time. maybe move faster to get more # done.. same with a dog.. my last dog that i just had to put down cause she was dieng :'(, was a lot more obedient than my new dog cinder
img]https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/422976_10151505251543294_232537521_n.jpg[/img]



i can call it personality but its really their upbringing. pepper was abused as a dog when we got her. hence the obedience. and she couldnever shake that attitude like we were going to do it too. which (to be crystal clear) i have never done. animal abuse is the one thing that sickens me the most. i could kill a guy no problem if i saw him beat a dog. killing him goes against my religions rules, but that man really sucks to do something like that. I know what your saying where they have personalitys but i do not think that the soul part is there. the soul is crucial. like i stated way earlier. its that voice of reasoning in everyones head. what the hell is that? why do we have it? like i gave an example for earlier. forced sex to humans is called rape and its a crime. whereas in dog land its considered "just being a dog". now why is that? because us as humans know that crucial thing telling them wright and wrong is missing. they just know because of memory/upbringing. like if you spank your dog if she begs. you do it enough and she probably wont come around begging. does she do this because she knows its right? not to me, to me she does it because of her learning.

this is what makes me also have very little faith that we somehow came from apes. i know deep in a jungle somwhere there should be an acient civilization of many generations of apes that have been constanly having more generations and have been around for a while. by scientific theory, shouldnt they be man? did they just miss the bus for that changing? which brings me to my next point and questions. the point is. we are very differnt from any species here. why is that? its that thing that tells us what right and wrong is.

then i guess my closing question is. how do you think mankind god here? please feel free to disect my logic on the animal thing on compare it with your view. i swear i wont get offended. i just talk to everyone on here like im never going to see them again. i should be more respectful on here cause your all people. and everyone should be treated with respect. again i apologize for not doing that before.

and lastly, as for my upbringing. im glad i was raised this way. it was my moms doing. she argues even when shes wrong which in turn made me a argumentive person. but it let em get a clear view on bull#ters by teaching me how they act and what they do. whih is why i work at a good job cause people seem to like my realistic views. a conversation on this would do me way more justice than paragraphs because im a very animated and quick talker. its hard for me to slow my speed down to typing form

reply to post by Nightaudit


Jesus of Nazareth (c. 5 BCE – 30 CE), leader of a small Jewish sect who was crucified; Jews who believed him to be the Messiah were the first Christians, also known as Jewish Christians. Christians and Messianic Jews believe him to be the real Messiah.
Simon of Peraea (c. 4 BCE), a former slave of Herod the Great who rebelled and was killed by the Romans.[3]
Athronges (c. 3 CE),[4] a shepherd turned rebel leader.
Menahem ben Judah (?), allegedly son of Judas of Galilee, partook in a revolt against Agrippa II before being slain by a rival Zealot leader.
Vespasian, c. 70, according to Josephus[5]
Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War.
Moses of Crete (?), who in about 440–470 convinced the Jews of Crete to attempt to walk into the sea to return to Israel; he disappeared after that disaster.
Ishak ben Ya'kub Obadiah Abu 'Isa al-Isfahani (684–705), who led a revolt in Persia against the Umayyad Caliph 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan.
Yudghan (?), a disciple of Abu 'Isa who continued the faith after Isa was slain.[6][7]
Serene (?), who around 720 claimed to be the Messiah and advocated expulsion of Muslims and relaxing various rabbinic laws before being arrested; he then recanted.
David Alroy (?), born in Kurdistan, who around 1160 agitated against the caliph before being assassinated.
Nissim ben Abraham (?), active around 1295.[8]
Moses Botarel of Cisneros (?), active around 1413; claimed to be a sorcerer able to combine the names of God.
Asher Lämmlein (?), a German near Venice who proclaimed himself a forerunner of the Messiah in 1502.
David Reubeni (1490–1541?) and Solomon Molcho (1500–1532), adventurers who travelled in Portugal, Italy and Turkey; Molcho was eventually burned at the stake by the Pope.
A mostly unknown Czech Jew from around the 1650s.[9]
Sabbatai Zevi (1626–1676), an Ottoman Jew who claimed to be the Messiah, but then converted to Islam; still has followers today in the Donmeh.
Barukhia Russo (Osman Baba), successor of Sabbatai Zevi.
Jacob Querido (?–1690), claimed to be the new incarnation of Sabbatai; later converted to Islam and led the Donmeh.
Miguel Cardoso (1630–1706), another successor of Sabbatai who claimed to be the "Messiah ben Ephraim."
Mordecai Mokia (1650–1729), "the Rebuker," another person who proclaimed himself Messiah after Sabbatai's death.
Löbele Prossnitz (?–1750), attained some following amongst former followers of Sabbatai, calling himself the "Messiah ben Joseph."
Jacob Joseph Frank (1726–1791), who claimed to be the reincarnation of King David and preached a synthesis of Christianity and Judaism.
Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902–1994), the seventh Chabad Rabbi who tried to "prepare the way" for the Messiah. An unidentifiable number of his followers believe him to be the Messiah, though he himself never said this and actually scoffed at such claims which were made during his lifetime.[10][11]


again. the only "son of God" claim is from Jesus. i appreciate the list to back up my point. do any of them say that? "im the son of God". thats a very heavy claim. i cant even recognize any of those names. but we all know jesus (even though he was just "some guy" to you). but i can tell you ive never heard any other of those names till i read the list. now again. he clearly had some importance. and with a heavy claim like that hes either nuts (like you would view someone saying that on the news today) or he was what he claimed to be. btw all those guys could still be right about claiming to be a messiah. the definition of it is a saviour or liberator of a group of people, sooo whats the problem? its the Son of God part im not seeing in your "suppsed other people just like jesus"

let me just ask everyone. say jesus was a big imposter and not the son of god. can someone just give me his angle? what was in it for him? what was in it for the christianity religion to follow? clearly its not money. its hard to spend money when youre dead. someone answer this.

Text2: How do you cope with the obviously wrong and horrible laws and statements in the bible? (How to treat your slaves and that it´s ok to beat them, women´s "right´s", that we have to stone people that wear two different fabrics and all that jazz). In other words, do you pick the nice points out of the bible and ignore the bad ones? Or do you accept everything in it?

reply to post by Nightaudit


@Nightaudit

I picked this question as a start and with no malice intended. Firstly you have valid questions which should be addressed by any person who claims to be a Christian.

The very first thing that I should like to explain is that, in my opinion, one does not have to be a practicing organized cultured Christian to be given life everlasting. There have and are still many people who have never seen a bible or heard of Christ Jesus. The bible is not a requirement for a man or woman to be loved by the Creator. It is the nature of an individual or what is in the heart of the individual that saves a person. Not organized religions or any liturgy or great knowledge which gives a person the integrity that should be in all creation.

A true Christ follower is a person who accepts the individual covenant of the biblical Jesus. This biblical Jesus gave His life to reveal God’s true love for His creation and to establish His kingdom of Heaven. There are two distinct covenants in the Adamic creation. The first Hebrew covenant was a national or collective covenant and the reason it was is simply because it was this group of people who accepted this particular God. Under this covenant, which started with Abraham and was renewed and enlarged with Moses, was a covenant of strict harsh laws which was needed to bring order and education to barbaric people.

The Hebrew tribes were actually no better in God’s eyes than any other people till their leaders accepted the laws of God. Mankind was actually on the brink of destruction and was virtually in the death throws of extinction. They were as barbaric as most other people and God accepted them as a start in His reformation of our civilization. This start was an agreement between God and this group of tribes of Hebrew people. God set the requirements into a code of ethics which we call a covenant and the people agreed to that set of requirements by an overwhelming yes vote.

I agree that the covenant was harsh and to our minds the laws were unreasonable. That is actually good because it shows that we today have progressed in a more intelligent mind set than of the ancient days. Maybe one day this world will be a first class civilization and the laws will be written in the hearts of people. Meanwhile the first covenant had to be control first. That is what law is all about. You have to control the bad in order to educate the civilization as a collective civilization.

Here is a typical example. The Hebrew people were practicing the drinking of fresh blood. God gave the Levitical tribe the authority to form the tabernacle and the authority of all sacrifice. No one could sacrifice as an individual. All sacrifice must be through the priesthood at the altar of God and the blood of that sacrifice must be sprinkled on the altar to be burned. In time the drinking of blood was resolved as unhealthy and barbaric.

Another example is that of death. At one time the Hebrews believed that the nation collectively entered the abode of Sheol at death. Regardless of who you were your spirit entered the abode of Sheol when you died. Then came the idea that if they had laws to govern the wicked on this earth, why not in Sheol? This developed into Sheol having several places for interment of the spirit and ushered in individual punishment for the dead. You can see that very slowly the people started to awaken to God’s covenant.

Then one day a man named Jesus came upon the scene. He preached a loving and forgiving individual doctrine. As He was put to death He offered a second covenant. This covenant was offered to all people and not just to a nation collectively. This covenant would embrace the entire civilization on individual acceptance. This contract that Jesus offered was unwritten and valid with His God. His God was the same God that Moses had and yet the covenants were vastly as different as were the cultures of the Hebrews. The people were finally growing up and as we die and our new cultures are born, I hope that the world will continue to advance.

Continued as part two ---

reply to post by MikeHawke

i can call it personality but its really their upbringing. pepper was abused as a dog when we got her. hence the obedience. and she couldnever shake that attitude like we were going to do it too. which (to be crystal clear) i have never done. animal abuse is the one thing that sickens me the most. i could kill a guy no problem if i saw him beat a dog. killing him goes against my religions rules, but that man really sucks to do something like that. I know what your saying where they have personalitys but i do not think that the soul part is there. the soul is crucial. like i stated way earlier. its that voice of reasoning in everyones head. what the hell is that? why do we have it?

See? Now I see someone completely different than the person you "introduced" to the thread. Don't worry about it, you've more than made up for it, and I see now a thoughtful, sensitive young person my daughter's age. She will be 25 in December.

I'm also very envious of your job - I would love NOTHING MORE than to be working with animals (actually - I have done just that for my whole life - living with them, training them, and learning FROM THEM. What you say about animal abuse is EXACTLY how I feel about it - it makes me absolutely furious, and yes, violently so...

Can that monkey understand you? I'd say he doesn't necessarily recognize the words, but he CERTAINLY DOES understand your manner, your tone of voice, your approachability, your concern, and your kindness. I think the thing I see as their soul is their capacity for genuine love, altruism, patience, grief, anger, etc. Not 'spoken language' - although they all have their OWN languages and certainly do respond to verbal cues, including their names.

It is that capacity for love and other emotions that to me makes a soul. As far as do they know they will die? We don't know if they think about it daily - like we sometimes do - but yes, I've recently lost two elderly animals, a dog and a cat, both in their teens - and they knew the time had come. But those are stories for another thread.

And ants don't have personalities - they are machines. Same with reptiles, fish. Both reptiles and fish can learn behaviors to prompt being fed, but they don' care about their handlers or their offspring. Insects don't have personalities - even though they can get angry or frightened, instinctively.

I don't know how mankind got here. Yes, we are different from other primates, and seem to have qualities that even the great apes lack - but since the apes can't talk to us, we can't really know what they are thinking. However, they DO cherish and nurture their young - there was a great article in Smithsonian Mag a few months ago about Gorillas - the whole issue was about animals, I think you'd really enjoy it...
I think the soul is seen in the eyes. You know what I'm talking about.

I tend to think that we were "seeded" somehow - by either celestial processes like supernovae or collisions, and I certainly don't think we are the only intelligent species in the universe - or if we are, then there are other planets with humans on them. Were we colonized by more advanced civilizations who were light-years away in both distance AND science and psychological abilities? Maybe.

Were Adam and Eve created 6,000 years ago - him of clay, her of his rib? NO. NO WAY.

I think we are a blip in the process of the living universe. I think the Earth herself is a living thing, and that the circumstances here are part of a grander plan on a cosmic scale that we will not understand until, possibly, we die - or perhaps not even then.

I'm enjoying talking with you, thank you SO MUCH for engaging in a real dialogue.

reply to post by MikeHawke


No problem, Mike.

A lot of us (me included) tend to be a little more "aggressive" in discussions on the web, simply because we can kind of "hide" in our anonymity.

I want to underline that I didn´t want to step on anyone´s toes here. I am just looking for truth.

I am simply very interested in the view of believers, as I personally can´t think my way around the issues we have discussed here.

Originally posted by undo
the god of the old testament is more than one god. and i suspect, sometimes the usage of the word for god/lord/divinity/divine one, etc, was interchanged with pharaoh. so sometimes you are reading pharaonic edicts and the texts claims they are from "god" because the translators had a translational bias.

Jehovah = "the existing One". Even the Hebews say the nondualic reality that really exists in one singe word.

I do not understand why people cannot see thru duality yet and understand that "the existing One" have put spiritual people on this planet on all corner of the world to make itself known so that souls will be guided and find their way home. All religion is just the writing down of what occured when a spiritual one started to teach on a larger scale. It is like kids fighting over the color of what all balls should be. I like the color red so color blue will not be tolerated. I like yellow so red and blue will not be tolerated. The childishness is becoming so boring.

Thank you Undo you gave me some information that was new to me with that link and will help me on my traveling.

reply to post by MikeHawke


I don't believe he ever claimed to be the son of God - but some of his followers thought he might be.
I don't think he was an "imposter" either - like others have said here, he was a messenger. So were Krishna, Buddha, etc. There have been great thinkers and teachers forever, and there still are today.

I also don't believe in the "resurrection" story, or that believing he was God or is the only way to Heaven is correct.

He was teaching love, compassion, acceptance, altruism, and tolerance. He was teaching that everyone has dignity, and everyone makes mistakes, and no person is "superior" to another or has the right to enslave, oppress, or use people. THAT IS THE ONLY message that matters. He was right about those things, undeniably right, but he was NOT a judgmental hater who would fling people into hell.

Question for you on our other subject of animals - would you be willing to try asking THEM if they have souls, using eye contact and an open mind, and see what you find? You're around them every day. Really 'ask' them - by your presence, and your attention. Undivided attention, eye contact, and an effort to understand what you see. Will you try it?