Possible rationales for DHS mega purchases of ammunition (esp .40 sw):

reply to post by Advantage

Sounds like the media is complicit in a disinfo campaign there....there were actual orders for over a billion bullets (loaded cartridges)...and that does not include the order by the FBI for 20mm sniper rifles and ammo to go with it. A 20mm is an anti tank or anti aircraft round....definitely anti material and they are ordering sniper rifles in this calibre....that is over 50% wider (much bigger in terms of mathematical mass) than the .50bmg (12.7mm) round.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by Advantage

 

There are lead free bullets that are not designed to break paper instead of do the most damage to human tissue or ballistic gelatin....but I have heard that some people like to shoot (practice) the exact same round that they carry. But the JHP rounds can be up to twice as expensive....and not all of the rounds ordered were HPs (some were written as "hollow points or less" (or words to that effect meaning that they didnt have to supply HPs unless they wanted to substitute up at the same price).

I quoted you as saying that HPs arent used in target... and they are. NRA precision and bullseye shooters even use SWC Hollow Points. I use HPs in my S&W 357 and DE when target shooting myself. Im giving you accurate information to base your theory on as you apparently arent getting accuracy from google.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by Generator85

 

I probably did come off bad. I read the OP and reacted poorly probably. Thing is there is quite a bit of information which has been put out about this subject. Anyone who really wants to get to the bottom of such a purchase should be able to find the information fairly easy. I get a bit upset when I see something I believe to be outright fear mongering. There are a great many issues that deserve attention that our government is in the wrong about but this should not be one of them. There seem to be an abundance of individuals that would buy into what the OP is putting forth that unfortunately will not take the time to investigate further.

The information provided in the OP does not provide substance to back up the assertions that have been made. Look at all the bullets it seems like a lot oh my god they are going to kill us because ?????. It was written better than that but the message is the same. I don’t mind theory’s I welcome them but this issue has been thoroughly discussed on ATS which can be easily found using the search function and the same mindset has been expressed by a fair amount of people already to which it has been logically addressed with evidence that should dispel such fears but it seems that there are those who are not interested in what is logical or factual instead they would rather spread fear.

I am no fan of the government but if we can’t address issues with evidence and facts then this mindset does not serve us in any constructive way.

Some people do, for whatever the reason/s may be, have a hard time breaking things down logically. Not trying to imply anything about the OP, to be clear. Critical thinking doesn't come easy to all, I'm living proof!

It can be a daunting task to read through long-ass threads just to see how a topic has been hashed out and rationalized.. can you really blame folks for not wanting to wade through countless, often unrelated, comments? Not always is there a counter argument posted that summarizes all the points for all to see.

Gee, I'm not sure that B, C, & D make much sense. While the ammo shelves are empty, there's still a fair amount of .40S&W on the shelves. Not all LE departments use .40S&W, locally it's .357SIG. It wouldn't make much sense to create a shortage that only affects LEOs & Feds - IMO.

As to the use of HP rounds: on an airplane a frangible round makes much better sense than HP rounds both from a safety perspective and from a wound channel perspective.

ganjoa

reply to post by ganjoa

True that most of the shortage is in the AR-15 calibre (5.56 nato or .223 rem) but it is also true that police departments are short of inventory and most carry 9mm, .357 sig, .40 s&w and .45 acp with the greatest I am sure in the .40. The DHS order also calls for some .357sig ammo to be purchased. I agree on the frangible rounds for planes but how many times in the last 11+ years (post 911) have we heard of an Air Marshall shooting someone on an airplane? Back to the police shortage; if there is a plan to merge local law enforcement (look up Operation Cable Splicer, etc) and the police are recalcitrant when it comes to obeying federal gun confiscation directives and there is future chaos (economic/food riots or actual insurrection) then the police could be forced to merge under the duress of not having sufficient ammo to discharge their duties. Also if events were going to unfold (and you were partly responsible for commencing that process) and it involved serious ammunition shortages and price spikes then it would make since to "lock in" future deliveries (supply and price), would it not? If they didnt anticipate this then why not just order 50 million rounds a year like the government does on other annual budget items (especially when they are trying to cut the budget)?

From what i remember previously the mega purchases are options so they do not need to purchase the full amount but they have locked in the supplier(s) for 5 years at a fixed price so if the ammo went to $10 a shell then everyone would be cursing the DHS for being able to get ammo at such a good price

But give it a few months and once everyone has had a play with their new toys and they start to get bored the supply of ammo will return to its normal level

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


All good well thought out points.
You're right - 9mm is getting pretty hard to find as well.
There's a shortage of 22LR as well - at least at the last 3 gun shows I've attended (capitalizing on the stupid money being paid these days for about-to-be-banned weapons).
It seems that AK rounds are not in short supply and still "affordable" for those that want to stock up.

In my local area, duty weapons aren't issued so it's up to personal choice - one department specifies their officers carry Sigs, but don't mandate caliber (at least for off duty). My local LEOs carry everything from .38 Special, 9mm, .40S&W and 45ACP - it's a hodge-podge.

ganjoa

I realize people like to burn ammo at the range, or whatever.

However, I am confused why people actually need so much ammo?
Sure I realize more is better.

But really if all you had was 100 rounds left, you actually should be good. At least for one incident assuming it will be low intensity and short duration.

I just think about it, and think, one bullet is all it really takes to end my existence.

One bullet.

And skilled machinists/metallurgist can make these in their basement if they have the tools and knowledge.
Why doesn't anyone really get into this hobby anyways?

Just a few questions if anyone cares to answer.
Don't take my comments too seriously I am just thinking out loud here since it's obviously an important subject.

Originally posted by Maxatoria
From what i remember previously the mega purchases are options so they do not need to purchase the full amount but they have locked in the supplier(s) for 5 years at a fixed price so if the ammo went to $10 a shell then everyone would be cursing the DHS for being able to get ammo at such a good price

But give it a few months and once everyone has had a play with their new toys and they start to get bored the supply of ammo will return to its normal level

That actually sounds like a reasonable and balanced post.

Although it is speculative, it's a type of speculation that seeks to balance opposing forces and find a middle ground.
Also that is actually how large orders are made typically within corporate or govt contracts.
(Recent examples include the orders and options AA has w/Boeing)

Thanks for the insights.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I agree. It's like if your dept. has $500 extra dollars at the end of the fiscal year. If you don't somehow spend it, TPTB will allocate your budget for $500 less the next year.

The problem with that is, what if you end up needing that extra $500 the following year? I know, it's a dumb way of doing business and it seems to create waste -- but it's what the government does.

This is why at the end of each fiscal year, office supply places get crazy busy. Government offices will go and order $200 worth of Bic pens and cases and cases of paper; things they know they will use that don't go bad.

The same argument and case can be made for the DHS. They know bullets will only go up in price regardless of gun control legislation. Some commodities simply never go *down* in price. Copy paper is a prime example. If you're a purchasing agent for a company, you always want to lock in your price on paper as soon as you can and do a large order.

Bullets have a long shelf life if kept in the right conditions. They'll eventually be used up, and they'll cost more next year anyway. I don't think this is anything to get overly excited about.

Now if they were buying up tons of riot gear ...

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


an irrelevant question , as the govt hasnt bought anything - they have secured a promise to be supplied , on demand upto that number , at an agreed price , over the next 5 years

they are not obliged to buy any - but are assured that that amount - will be availiable at the fixed price

IF they buy the full amount - any extra they require will have to be negotiated at a new price and delivery commitment

reply to post by Advantage

HPs are used in target and competition, they are more accurate and HPs dont have the lead, so you dont have the issues that causes when target/competition shooting.

I would have to differ with you statement that hollowpoint bullets 'don't have the lead' .

I believe that most hollowpoint bullets do contain lead.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Advantage

 

HPs are used in target and competition, they are more accurate and HPs dont have the lead, so you dont have the issues that causes when target/competition shooting.

I would have to differ with you statement that hollowpoint bullets 'don't have the lead' .

I believe that most hollowpoint bullets do contain lead.

I should have said dont have the lead amount. They dont have the lead exposure that other bullets have. Im talking about why they are preferred by certain folks as we were talking about in this thread, There is less lead vapor and some smoke reduction.hose were the issues I was speaking of.
Ive seen your posts.. you should already know that HPs have an enclosed base where traditionals have exposed lead in the base. Id think you knew the difference, hence exactly what I meant in the post you quoted... I just wonder why youd choose to either act like you didnt know or couldnt look up the difference between a traditional and a HP.



Yep, google still works :
www.wisegeek.com...

Everything has been planned in advance and the groundwork laid years ago. Stay alert and vigilant. I have always thought gun control was going to be approached in an extremely sneaky way and that the UN is behind the pressure on our country to disarm or incapacitate our 2A in some way.

The ammunition purchases last year, imo, were suspicious then, and now, even more so.

He said this in 2008.

reply to post by queenofswords


He is definitely in favor of expanding the MIC domestically huh?

As far as getting answers lets just contact our respective US Reps, report back here, and compare findings and go from there. I just contacted mine. Will you please contact yours?

We were talking about this elsewhere last year.. and Id been told that there were "urban warfare" drills in Minnesota and Chicago... but really couldnt find a good source myself when I searched. This one said Minneapolis and Miami..
pandaunite.org...
But who knows if its a good enough source for the ever changing "whats a truthful source" crowd.
and this www.newswithviews.com...

As far as why was all of this bought, I do believe part of it is definitely using every penny allocated. Id dealt with this in my previous career... the city will spend every dime even if its on BS projects so the money in whatever amt is available next time. I think we have all seen it with govt and mil.

As far as the HP discussion.. to me, as I was trying to get across.. that it would fit in OPs theory. Even if or "practice" or training, using hollow points in an urban setting is IMO very relevant. You you take down what you hit and have less issue with barrel fouling with the jacketed HPs ( as I was speaking about with the lead) so there would be less field maintenance in "urban combat".. plus, we cant use hp overeas in combat per the GC ( which is a hot topic on firearm enthusiast boards ATM concerning the interpretation of the allowance of hps on the battlefield) we sure can domestically. WIth the hps opening up, they tend to stay in the target.. so that also makes sense with urban combat.
Here on ATS it was reported when it happened and also clues you into the insanity which is spending what they give you so its given next time.. the issue with Social Security and their 174K bullets. The agents carry the same cal I use.. and for some of the same reasons.

Agents carry .357 caliber pistols, Lasher said. The bullets, which add up to about 590 per agent, are for the upcoming fiscal year. Most will be expended on the firing range.

www.msnbc.msn.com...-GfMLIU

The Ready Reserve Corp. is directly linked to The Affordable Health Care Act (ObamaCare).

Do you see now, why Obama wants to directly link the gun violence issue to the CDC (Center for Disease Control)?

He can link it to a "health emergency" and implement this faux army of constitution usurpers.

America....stay vigilant. Yes...by all means contact your Reps! THIS is an emergency.

reply to post by Advantage

I should have said dont have the lead amount. They dont have the lead exposure that other bullets have. Im talking about why they are preferred by certain folks as we were talking about in this thread, There is less lead vapor and some smoke reduction.hose were the issues I was speaking of.

You could have just left it at that.

Ive seen your posts.. you should already know that HPs have an enclosed base where traditionals have exposed lead in the base. Id think you knew the difference, hence exactly what I meant in the post you quoted... I just wonder why youd choose to either act like you didnt know or couldnt look up the difference between a traditional and a HP.

Of course I did know. I've seen more than a few bullets of many designs after they have left the muzzle.
I just wanted to point it out for someone that may not know that the base of FMJ's are open. And to head off any novices from fostering some belief that hollowpoints don't contain lead. That's all I was doing.

Exxellent and very plausable think peak oil only...
Peak ammo
Yet more profit for the industrial military complex indeed