Possible rationales for DHS mega purchases of ammunition (esp .40 sw):

reply to post by Grimpachi

Yes I said that (under the rationale that hollow points prevent overpenetration which puts innocent bystanders at risk....even tho they are much more lethal to the subject being shot). At the time of the Geneva Convention they were referred to as "dum dum" bullets.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

 

I would be very surprised to find that Diane Feinstein has an investment interest in ATK or Winchester.

I wouldn't, considering the level of her hypocrisy....But, Janet Napolitano would be the one to vet, as to any interests in the MIC...

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


Regarding B)
As far as the market angle goes I wonder if anyone has looked into who owns the major ammunition manufacturing companies...obviously they are getting payed with government cheddar (taxes) so I would imagine they would be loyal to their largest customer...the government.

Its interesting to think about once you realize how the whole thing works...

the PEOPLE can't afford the ammo (privately) because the GOVERNMENT pushes the price/demand up out of their reach...which is ironic because they are doing it with the PEOPLE's money they stole via taxes. Same goes with supply...the PEOPLE are having shortages because the GOVERNMENT is buying it all up...using again...the PEOPLE's money...

its pretty perverse once you step back and see how this whole system we have functions...

reply to post by CosmicCitizen

The ammo shortage (b) is already starting to affect the inventory of police departments. Many are cutting out live fire shooting practice or cops are having to buy their own ammo and inventory levels are very low nationwide. If there was a national crisis the police departments would find themselves ill equipped to handle chaos long term unless they merged (forced?) with the federal authorities (ie DHS).....(c). If that happened any sheriff who refused to follow federal orders for gun confiscations (like we have seen in the news recently) would be removed and probably sent off to a detention camp.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
Hollow points are illegal Per the Geneva convention for soldiers and in war. They are not illegal for law enforcement.

Kinda sucks that enemies of the State is better protected than citizens of the State, doesn't it?

Just saying..

reply to post by Sly1one

Yes your tax dollars at work....same goes for the Camps (Fema and army civilian relocation and labor camps as well as proposed reeducation facilities) and the Deep Underground Bunkers (2012 was a predictable dud so maybe they are expecting ww3).

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by CosmicCitizen

 

Answer: F for none of the above.

F is also the grade I would give if this was an assignment.

This subject has been talked to death about. The purchase was nothing out of the ordinary. You should also do the math on how many rounds that breaks down as for each employee factor in training time and also look up regulations on what they are required to have in stock at any given time.

You should also take notice that every governmental agency tries to spend their budget because the way the government is set up if they don’t then the next budget would be significantly less than the last for them.

Seriously there are at least 8 other threads that have already addressed this with factual information instead of pure unfounded opinion.

Todays letter is F

Like the premise of the thread it is a

FAIL

Or it could be described as F for FEARMONGER

edit on 21-1-2013 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)

Your point seems pretty reasonable and straight forward, but you kinda seem like you're talking down to the OP.

Why?

Also calling someone a "fear monger" is a bit rude and tactless.. How do you KNOW this person has an agenda? Maybe they truly believe what they're saying. If you want someone to "see the light", so to speak, this is not the way to do it.

I think others mentioned part of this, but the ammo being ordered isn't that unusual. This is the Federal Government after all and they always order too much of everything. DHS is comprised of 2 dozen agencies including such big groups as the U.S. Secret Service, the Coast Guard and what was U.S. Customs and Border Patrol to name a few.

Department of Homeland Security

In terms of what type? I'd be upset if they were NOT buying Hollow Points. Despite the media really going ape over "evil cop killer bullets" and all kinds of other ignorant crap about ammo to confuse everyone....Hollow Points are GOOD. The best thing short of Frangible ammunition and that has too many limitations for general use.

Hollow Points are good for TWO reasons. First and most importantly, they tend to stop inside the target far more than ball ammo that goes right on through ..and through the wall behind..the room behind that..and probably out the wall on the other side. HP's expand and the target absorbs the energy.

Second. They Expand. That means more than stopping over shoots right out the building it's fired in, for instance. It means the body being shot gets ALL the foot pounds of impact and kinetic energy. Nothing wasted....real heavy damage.

Now that's a bad thing for the people who just get sick over the idea of *ANYONE* being shot for any reason. However, if there is a DHS agent assisting a citizen by shooting a bad guy trying to commit a crime? I want them to KILL, not hurt the guy and as QUICKLY as physically possible. I want them shooting hollow points.


(Hollow Point Performance by Caliber as fired into ballistic gel which simulates a body for mass and density)

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

DF seems too passionate (irrationally so) for gun control and she is a smart lady....so while she could see the investment potential she would realize that her investments as a senator are not transparent and if found out that her hypocrisy would "shoot" down her bill on gun control. Nancy Pelosi on the other hand....who has been an insider trader (ie Visa IPO)....I can see her doing that.

reply to post by DupontDeux

Ironic.....copper jacketed irony.

reply to post by Generator85

Thank you, I think that the respondent is probably a "Complacency Monger" (LOL). First of all most shooters (except maybe those spending the taxpayers money) dont use hollow point ammo for target practice - they use the same weight in a full jacketed bullet (which is cheaper) and then carry the HPs. Secondly, I heard that the cumulative order was 8x larger than any previous order (which was for 200 million rounds in 2009). The respondent should consider the answers "a thru d" in light of ancillary developments as well (ie, Patriot Acts, NDAA, TSA Viper Rollout, DHS anti-patriot rhetoric, etc)..........and try to connect the dots.

OP I'd S and F you because when we heard about the DHS making this move, I was scratching my head and thinking mass purchases of ammo, civil war of the possibility why? Well I think it has something to do with this gun control issue and other things in the near coming months or year.

Has we being saying for over couple years..something is coming and a lot of people are going to be angry about it.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I would rather have hollow points in a gun if in a fire fight also. The key to the designation of the "hollow points" for me however is that they are only for domestic deployment (not the military abroad). It is like they are planning for a (domestic or civil) war,,,,,literally.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by Generator85

 

Thank you, I think that the respondent is probably a "Complacency Monger" (LOL). First of all most shooters (except maybe those spending the taxpayers money) dont use hollow point ammo for target practice - they use the same weight in a full jacketed bullet (which is cheaper) and then carry the HPs. Secondly, I heard that the cumulative order was 8x larger than any previous order (which was for 200 million rounds in 2009). The respondent should consider the answers "a thru d" in light of ancillary developments as well (ie, Patriot Acts, NDAA, TSA Viper Rollout, DHS anti-patriot rhetoric, etc)..........and try to connect the dots.

HPs are used in target and competition, they are more accurate and HPs dont have the lead, so you dont have the issues that causes when target/competition shooting.

reply to post by sylent6

They started buying quietly in March of last year....well before the election but it is hard to keep something that large hidden even if they are using an accrual instead of cash based accounting system (govt accting) where they dont have to allocate the funds until they are ready to take delivery (at which point the purchases would show up in the budget line items). It all seems like it was a part of a plan to buy up ammo before the gun control agenda was unveiled so when the demand jumped the supply would not be there and prices "would necessarily skyrocket" (hmmmm, where have I heard that before.....oh that's right, BHO talking about his energy plan 4+ years ago).

reply to post by Generator85


I probably did come off bad. I read the OP and reacted poorly probably. Thing is there is quite a bit of information which has been put out about this subject. Anyone who really wants to get to the bottom of such a purchase should be able to find the information fairly easy. I get a bit upset when I see something I believe to be outright fear mongering. There are a great many issues that deserve attention that our government is in the wrong about but this should not be one of them. There seem to be an abundance of individuals that would buy into what the OP is putting forth that unfortunately will not take the time to investigate further.

The information provided in the OP does not provide substance to back up the assertions that have been made. Look at all the bullets it seems like a lot oh my god they are going to kill us because ?????. It was written better than that but the message is the same. I don’t mind theory’s I welcome them but this issue has been thoroughly discussed on ATS which can be easily found using the search function and the same mindset has been expressed by a fair amount of people already to which it has been logically addressed with evidence that should dispel such fears but it seems that there are those who are not interested in what is logical or factual instead they would rather spread fear.

I am no fan of the government but if we can’t address issues with evidence and facts then this mindset does not serve us in any constructive way.

reply to post by Advantage

There are lead free bullets that are not designed to break paper instead of do the most damage to human tissue or ballistic gelatin....but I have heard that some people like to shoot (practice) the exact same round that they carry. But the JHP rounds can be up to twice as expensive....and not all of the rounds ordered were HPs (some were written as "hollow points or less" (or words to that effect meaning that they didnt have to supply HPs unless they wanted to substitute up at the same price).

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I would rather have hollow points in a gun if in a fire fight also. The key to the designation of the "hollow points" for me however is that they are only for domestic deployment (not the military abroad). It is like they are planning for a (domestic or civil) war,,,,,literally.

I'd generally agree with the alarm here...if it wasn't an umbrella organization like the DHS making the order for it. A smaller agency? Yeah...I'd wonder hard. Even the FBI has nothing like the manpower to need anything like that. 20+ FBI's all together though? Well... DHS has more than that, actually. DOD ought to have hollow point for the same reason as LEOs, except perhaps the military figures they want to be able to penetrate doors, walls and heavy clothing as the point of things where law enforcement would have some VERY heavy explaining to do if they were firing through blind walls and doors, right?

I got this to add a bit and it's the stats as of a couple years ago:



(Source: Gun Policy.org)

They'll probably have half that stuff wasted, stolen, lost or outright embezzled by their own agents anyway. They're as interested as we are in stocking gun safes and closets at home whenever it's possible to 'liberate' a few extra boxes. I'll bet they figure in that "shrinkage". lol

The Department of Homeland Security has redacted information relating to the quantity of bullets it is buying following a controversy concerning the agency’s purchase of over a billion rounds of ammo, which many fear is a sign the federal government is preparing for civil unrest in the United States.

www.shtfplan.com...

newenglandgunjournal.com...

oathkeepers.org...

**shrug**
who knows whats really going on. Im sure you and I will be the last to know the truth though. There is a lot of this out there.. many discussions and etc on this redaction, but the request of the blacked out form/memo whatever is interesting.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Most of the theories circulated previously (ie 10 months ago) centered on the "us civil war" theory. Has anyone addressed the issue about creating a shortage which would also affect the police and give the federal authorities leverage in federalizing ("fusion" or merging as in Operations Garden Plot and Cable Splicer) local police units? I was not trying to rehash old theories as much as introduce some new ideas that are relevant to the current situation and relate to the older theories and then put them together and see what other members thought. It all seems to be coming together in the news (shootings, shortages, price spikes, gun control legislation) and it all started in this cycle with the large DHS purchases so I wanted to review and tie those rationales together also. I am not a fear monger per se....but there are situations when one's fear instinct is meant to be respected.