Egyptian Stone Vases-The Smoking Gun In The Advanced Technology Debate?

reply to post by tri-lobe-1


Agreed....

2nd

reply to post by tri-lobe-1

actually.....i think i'm the only person on ATS to even bother making a model/copy ....modern day and materials...of an item from the old kingdom........to put my money where my mouth is ...to practice what i preach...

Thank you for keeping an interest in this thread friend, I really hope someone with real world knowledge about stone working would post something on here.

I would love to have actual master craftsman post their ideas about these ancient vases. I am absolutely fascinated with how these vases(circa 2,800 or older) were actually made. We had a few people give some links on how mainstream history claims they were made but they are still just theories.

I feel that these small, easily overlooked vases may hold the key to unlocking the mysteries behind the Ancient Egyptians. There is still so much unknown about the real truths behind Egypt's timeline, I feel it is a great disservice to their legacy to not have the story completely correct.

Hi tri-lobe-1 and ATS.

I have been a lurker for quite a while now and have followed this thread with interest since it first started, your posts have finally made me sign up to become a member, so i'm blaming you

Anyway for what it's worth my ol' man was a stone mason all his working life from the age of 15-65 so that's 50 years of hands on experience of working with the stuff, he is now in his mid 70's but still lives and breathes the craft.

I showed him the vases and other 'works' about 3 years ago now and asked about how he thought they made them with their supposed limited tooling, needless to say he has always been in awe of their work and the small and perfectly balanced pot has confused him ever since I showed him it. Anyway it got his interest up again and put him in touch with old stone mason friends to ask their opinion on the subject. As far as I'm aware they were just as in awe and confused as him with the use of the so called tools they where only supposed to have only had.

I have asked him to comment before on other forums, but he wasn't interested leaving me trying to relay the best I could on his thoughts. Anyway needless to say most of the bookworm armchair experts seemed to think they knew everything, linking to all sorts of sites here there and everywhere, without even laying a hand on a chisel, stone pounder or piece of flint themselves. So he couldn't be bothered with it all in the end, when said and done he has nothing to prove.

Trying to convey an opinion to those that can talk a good job rather than actually do one can prove a fruitless task at times with everybody trying to argue their point, thus he really has no interests in forums. As I already said he has nothing to prove but is always willing to learn and take on new ideas if relevant.......linking to sites where the rims of pots are said to have been stuck on with glue, yes they is one and it's supposed to be serious, ain't gonna cut the mustard I'm afraid unless there is a clear visible join that proves the point.

Saying all that, if your interested and I'm making no promises here, I while try to get him to sign up later when I next see him in a few weeks time to give him that spark of interest again if no other professional stone crafters come out of the woodwork in the meantime.

Originally posted by tri-lobe-1
reply to post by tri-lobe-1

 

Happy festivist to all members....

3yrs ago i joined ats to talk about the.....tri-lobe schist bowl.....i've learnt alot...

The main thing that i have learnt is that .........there are no stone working experts in this area.....even in the world of the whinges....

The hall of maat.....no stone working professionals there..
ATS..........................no stone working professionals here..
UEM........................no stone working professionals there..

as a member i have looked at the earlier posts than my joining......say 3yrs back.....in the old kingdom context..

In 6 yrs ......nothing new or innovative.....or practical.......from a member.......of any of the above in the area of old kingdom stone-works......

most stuff that is given as methods to us is middle/new kingdom....that might satisfy a uni-student that need pass an exam......to me it does not cut the mustard...from a practical point of view......

I cant use any of the above opinions....from any of these web sites.......and go out and carve stone vases as per old kingdom........not one of the experts has practiced what they have preached.......no modern day replica from stone.....hell not even a timber replica......cad drawings dont count,lazy mans tool...

god.....i wish some one would replicate an old kingdom vase out of .....timber....as per the standard explaination...

Hey there, if your avatar pic is the bowl you talk about I am perplexed by looking at it. The geometry is amazing! I am also trying to copy this technique using a copper rod but still have to find the copper rod (I have been busy and that is a bit of a specialty item where I'm at, but I will put some time into buying one today as it's the holidays.)

Like you, I am determined to replicate this as well, using the current theory of a copper pipe (which no known artifact exists, understandably) on the end of a stick, weighted down with 2 stones, some lubricant/abrasive -- and lots of time.

I am skeptical on all of this, but do believe that given lots of time, anything is possible. Maybe 1 vase took 2 lifetimes to complete, I do not know of any time reference given for an average stone vessel. I plan on starting on limestone since that is soft and easy to find here. I don't know about wood with the fibers being there, but it technically should be easier than rock, depending on the wood.

Let me know how your progress is going please!

reply to post by BanksyBoy


Hello BanksyBoy.....

welcome to ATS......hope you enjoy your stay....there's alot of interesting things in this forum.....

these Old Kingdom stone vases are one of the interesting areas......check out SLAYERS posts....more great stone stuff ......civil engineering sizes......

im sure that your dad and his mates with their lifelong practical skills could throw a few interesting suggestions into the ring.....out of the box types perhaps????

reply to post by Philippines

Hello PI....

i made a fiberglass model....9"diameter......it was the only way that i could have one to play with.....
i'll get some pics up soon..

reply to post by tri-lobe-1


......

I made this to mount on a shaft and spin in water.......for fun....

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by VeritasAequitas

 

The day we replicate the things they did with the technology we said they used will be the day I finally acquiesce on this subject. I have not seen any publicized accounts of people creating the same artifacts in today's time, or replicating the sphinx and pyramids, etc. it's one thig to hypothesize how it was done, and an entirely other thing to actually do it yourself.

I feel the same way about flint arrowheads.

Nobody makes arrows with flint heads these days. Ergo - aliens.

Harte

edit on 11/30/2012 by Harte because: (no reason given)

so you have never seen an Indian make an arrow in his traditional way?

either you are purposely being stupid..

or your ego can not handle the valid truth of what the poster said...

The day we replicate the things they did with the technology we said they used will be the day I finally acquiesce on this subject.

People have been trying to figure out how AE built there works for hundreds of years now..

seems if, as you say, its all figured out..

that they would have continued to create various masterful works in these primitive methods for Religious or financial gain.. at least tourism or export.. up until our current time.

but no has. ever.

Yet, apparently you understand exactly how the indigenous Egyptian people long ago created their wonders halfway across the globe..

but have never taken the time to see a traditional Bow & Arrow being made or shot one.

funny how the ego works.

Originally posted by reeferman

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by VeritasAequitas

 

The day we replicate the things they did with the technology we said they used will be the day I finally acquiesce on this subject. I have not seen any publicized accounts of people creating the same artifacts in today's time, or replicating the sphinx and pyramids, etc. it's one thig to hypothesize how it was done, and an entirely other thing to actually do it yourself.

I feel the same way about flint arrowheads.

Nobody makes arrows with flint heads these days. Ergo - aliens.

Harte

edit on 11/30/2012 by Harte because: (no reason given)

so you have never seen an Indian make an arrow in his traditional way?

either you are purposely being stupid..

or your ego can not handle the valid truth of what the poster said...

The day we replicate the things they did with the technology we said they used will be the day I finally acquiesce on this subject.

People have been trying to figure out how AE built there works for hundreds of years now..

seems if, as you say, its all figured out..

that they would have continued to create various masterful works in these primitive methods for Religious or financial gain.. at least tourism or export.. up until our current time.

but no has. ever.

Yet, apparently you understand exactly how the indigenous Egyptian people long ago created their wonders halfway across the globe..

but have never taken the time to see a traditional Bow & Arrow being made or shot one.

funny how the ego works.

Yes, and you've put yours on display for our enjoyment.

Maybe arrowheads was a bad example.

How about cathedrals? Good enough for you?

Nobody makes cathedrals like they used to - ergo aliens.

I thought the motto was "Deny Ignorance" not "Proffer Ignorance."

Harte

Originally posted by Harte


How about cathedrals? Good enough for you?

Nobody makes cathedrals like they used to - ergo aliens.

I thought the motto was "Deny Ignorance" not "Proffer Ignorance."

Harte

Been to a onsite stonemasons workshop at a Cathedral then have you where they are constantly renovating ? I take it that that as a no then, otherwise you wouldn't have used the comparison and made the ergo alien comment..

Can you explain why you think anybody would say a Cathedral would have had to have been made by aliens, when the tools used, then and now, are perfectly capable and the sizes of stones used manageable. I'm confused with your analogy.

Originally posted by BanksyBoy
Can you explain why you think anybody would say a Cathedral would have had to have been made by aliens, when the tools used, then and now, are perfectly capable and the sizes of stones used manageable. I'm confused with your analogy.

The bolded portion above is true for every edifice ever constructed - including any ancient one.

You are not confused - you are putting up a pretense in order to maintain a skewed and sparkly worldview that is utterly invalid.

Harte

hey members.....

How did we go from delicate Old Kingdom stone vases to .........flint knapping/bashing arrow heads plus medieval cathedrals...add to the mix......mongrel aliens...............jesus wept.......???????

Are the above.....diversion things.????.....semantic things.????

I'm lost......the Greeks could easily make a Gothic Cathedral......they used the humand powered hamster-cage lifting device to build athens one and two......the cathedral builders just coppied.......

The Greeks just had a different artistic.....fashion ????.......which is different to Gothic cathedrals.....the human powered hamster cage lifting device.........lifts all weights for both fashions......

I can't find a knapped vase as per the OP's photo's in this whole thread......why are we comparing knapped with somethig different.?????

What has any of the above got to do with delicate Old Kingdom stone vases.??????

ATS....whats going on????........

hunting tools....
cathedrals....
delicate stone vases.....

3 different stone things requirering different approaches.......i'm lost..

Am i lost because of verbal cobbledy-gook.?????

The latest diversion from the OP's topic was due to the post by VeritasAequitas' in which he commented that he can't believe humans created anything in the past if we are not creating the same things - using the same methods - today.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

really harte what is your problem? you keep taking peoples words out of context and adding to them.
and why do you keep throwing in comments about aliens? do you think using this little strawman will make your argument more effective or are you just trying to be rude?

the fact is that we do not know how these were created. we have theories but until proven a theory is just a theory. which means, of course, that there is still room for speculation.

advanced technology does not neccasarily mean computers and electron lasers! to me a supurbly crafted balancing vase is pretty damn advanced.

and no i do not have any pet theories about how these things were done or why; but seriously demeaning anything which does not agree with commonly accepted theory is not productive at all.

i respect you alot which is why if makes me upset when you seem to always stoop to poke in the mud all the time.
it is great to have people like you around to keep a little sanity in the mix, but please remember this site is all about specutation.

Originally posted by The Benevolent Adversary
reply to post by Harte

 

really harte what is your problem? you keep taking peoples words out of context and adding to them.
and why do you keep throwing in comments about aliens? do you think using this little strawman will make your argument more effective or are you just trying to be rude?

The latter, of course. And I've taken nothing out of context. Have you read the hooey in this thread? Many posters here completely ignore the known contexts of the artifacts they wax ignorant on (speaking of context.)

Originally posted by The Benevolent Adversarythe fact is that we do not know how these were created. we have theories but until proven a theory is just a theory. which means, of course, that there is still room for speculation.

The Egyptians left artwork showing how they did it, but I suppose they were in on the conspiracy of secrecy, as if the people can't handle the actual truth?

Originally posted by The Benevolent Adversaryadvanced technology does not neccasarily mean computers and electron lasers! to me a supurbly crafted balancing vase is pretty damn advanced.

Yes, I agree with you and can flatly state that the Ancient Egyptians were more than enough advanced to do everything they did - the stonework, the pyramids, the statues, the medicine, etc.

While it might be considered amazing, it's not exactly mysterious.

Originally posted by The Benevolent Adversaryand no i do not have any pet theories about how these things were done or why; but seriously demeaning anything which does not agree with commonly accepted theory is not productive at all.

And stating that until we build a pyramid to match the Egyptians, then there's no evidence that the Egyptians constucted their own is "productive?"

Exactly how "productive" was your post?

Harte

Remember, there are many Egyptian Vases from many time periods. The ones is this thread are from a time when Egypt did not posses the tools needed. History tells us that, I am not making it up. Look it up yourself if you do not believe me and the links I have provided. These vases are from 2,800 BC or earlier. We are not talking about the newer vases that were made when the tools needed were known to be in Egypt. None of the tools needed were not in use in 2,800 BC(according to main stream history). The only one close was the pottery wheel, dated to 2,700 BC. Even then if the pottery wheel was used, they would of needed a lathe. The lathe was not in Egypt until 1,300 BC.

Not once did I ever mention Aliens or Alien technology. I am asking how is history so wrong, when clearly the Egyptians in 2,800 BC used the lathe. This is not some sparkly fantasy, this is fact. The tools needed were not in use according to mainstream history for when the Petrie vases are from. I do not see why this has to be some debate. It is very clear when the tools were made and when these vases are dated from. That is why these vases(again, not all vases) are an anomolie from the time period they are from.

If I am wrong about the dates of the pottery wheel, lathe, or wheel. Please let me know. Because from what I can find, my dates on the origins of these tools in Egypt as well as the Petrie 2,800BC vases are correct.

originally posted by mcx1942

Put very simply(according to mainstream history):

Petrie's Stone Vases: Dated to be from the Early Dynastic Period before 2,800 B.C or older. source

Lathes: Approximately 1,300 B.C source

Pottery Wheel: Old Kingdom Period approximately 2,700 B.C. source

Wheel: Not introduced into Egypt untill approximately 2,000 B.C.source

So this means that the mainstream timeline is incorrect if these vases were made using the Lathe, Wheel and or Pottery Wheel. Which by the evidence, looks like they were made using these tools. In a time we are told they did not use these tools.

That was my question from the very first post. The arguments have been essentially meaningless, not proving why mainstream history has their timelines wrong. If they have one part wrong, that would mean many parts would probably be wrong as well. Stop arguing with yourselves about how they were made and start asking why mainstream history/archaeology tells us, at the time the vases were made the tools needed to make them were not in Egypt yet?

The only tool even close to the vases time frame would be the pottery wheel. Even then these vases were probably made long before the advent. Also, if the Egyptians used the pottery wheel at around 2,700 B.C why did it take them 700 years to start using the actual wheel(2,000 B.C)?

Please, prove me wrong about the 2,800 BC vases. It can not be proven wrong, that is why these Petrie vases are fascinating. I am not saying the Egyptians did not make these or that they used Alien tech. I am saying these vases were made, we can see that. The tools needed to makes these were not in Eqypt at 2,800 BC. But it seems they were in Egypt at 2,800 BC. Why is this not blatantly obvious?

Even Petrie proposed they used the Lathe in 2,800 BC but it was shot down because it does not fit in with mainstream history.

Originally posted by mcx1942

Originally posted by Hanslune
So if you refuse to believe that the AE could do this work - where is the infrastructure and development of the advanced machinery you feel is needed to do this type of designs? You'll need to find that technology to be believed.

Thank you for your reply friend.

I am not saying that the AEs did not posses the technology. I am asking why mainstream archaeology says they did not. The workmanship needed would require materials we are told they did not use or have.

This was my first response post way back on page one. This was never answered. Pointless arguments, some good debates and all around interesting thread. Yet this simple question was never truly answered.

Originally posted by mcx1942
Remember, there are many Egyptian Vases from many time periods. The ones is this thread are from a time when Egypt did not posses the tools needed. History tells us that, I am not making it up. Look it up yourself if you do not believe me and the links I have provided. These vases are from 2,800 BC or earlier. We are not talking about the newer vases that were made when the tools needed were known to be in Egypt. None of the tools needed were not in use in 2,800 BC(according to main stream history). The only one close was the pottery wheel, dated to 2,700 BC. Even then if the pottery wheel was used, they would of needed a lathe. The lathe was not in Egypt until 1,300 BC.

It's an open question exactly how they got them so thin-walled, but a wheel or a lathe are not technically necessary. They would certainly make it easier, but it's possible to rub and polish down to those thicknesses as well.
I think you'll find that the further back you go, the thicker the walls of the vase/container are.

BTW, some of these date to Predynastic Egypt. The Egyptians were using copper tube drills to make these things from diorite before the first pyramid was erected.

Harte

I just do not see why it is not possible the lathe was actually used in Egypt at 2,800. Petrie thought so as well. It makes sense and it would explain these, because quite frankly some of these are too perfect to be done by hand. I understand the generations of craftsmanship being passed down but come on, why is it not possible that the lathe was actually being used at 2,800.

Because that disrupts the paradigm.

I do not discredit the Egyptians and if these were done by hand the good on them. I just understand that we can not truly prove how they were crafted, yet. We still have so much to discover, only the smallest fraction of what the truth actually is has be uncovered.

I think we can agree on that.

Originally posted by samuel1990
I've recently been to an exhibit where they had 100's of these on display. The pictures in this thread do the vases no justice- they are 1000 x more spectacular and beautiful in real life.

In my opinion there is ZERO possibility that these were made with rocks rolling on or inside them- they're way too smooth and I just cannot fathom how, nor why, anyone could speculate that. The lips of the vases are so thin and fine on some I find it impossible that it was crafted using simple rocks.

Some of the vases I saw were thin- thin enough that the lights behind them illuminated the insides and made them look almost like lamps. The hue they gave off was warm and glowing.

I'd like to see someone try and re-create these vases in different, varying methods and see if the end result is as spectacular as what the AE created (if it were them.... but, I won't get into my views on that)

I wanted to bump this member's post because he is the only one that has claimed to actually witness the Petrie 2,800 BC vases in real life and I feel this is a very important point of view.

I really hope one day I will have the pleasure of examining these myself in person.