Pre-Columbian exploration of America

Aztlan - the mythical homeland of the Aztecs/Mayans - was in Africa. Does that count as 'Pre-Columbian exploration of America?'

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originally posted by: Osciver
Aztlan - the mythical homeland of the Aztecs/Mayans - was in Africa. Does that count as 'Pre-Columbian exploration of America?'

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The likeliest location of Aztlan is in the southwestern United States.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Osciver
Aztlan - the mythical homeland of the Aztecs/Mayans - was in Africa. Does that count as 'Pre-Columbian exploration of America?'

imgur.com...
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The likeliest location of Aztlan is in the southwestern United States.

Harte

Yeah it would have been a tough walk from Africa. They showed up in central Mexico around the 13th century AD

originally posted by: Osciver
Aztlan - the mythical homeland of the Aztecs/Mayans - was in Africa. Does that count as 'Pre-Columbian exploration of America?'

The legend may be contrived in order to explain the resemblance of Central Americans to people from Northern Africa.

Suppose they had been making a move on the place in or around the time of Columbus.

Suppose they had been trading opium for gold between Central America and the Ottoman empire. Like I already said, when Spain took the New World's gold sources, the Ottoman invasion of Europe stopped expanding.

originally posted by: seagull
The anchor stones found on the west coast may point to Chinese presence in America around the time of Columbus or slightly before...

I would say more than slightly before.

originally posted by: Solvedit

Suppose they had been trading opium for gold between Central America and the Ottoman empire. Like I already said, when Spain took the New World's gold sources, the Ottoman invasion of Europe stopped expanding.

Suposely

Had such a trade system been in place there would have been an earlier version of the Columbian exchange - no such thing happened. Ottoman records don't record any such trade either.

There economy was fairly well known and they were not importing Gold. How do we know that?

books.google.com...=onepage& q=ottoman%20economics&f=false

The financial/trade experts of that time were the Venetian, Genoans and Italian banks - they seemed to have been unaware of this also.

In 2020, archaeologists discovered the shipwreck of a massive Ottoman merchant ship in the Mediterranean thought to have sunk in 1630 CE en route from Egypt to Constantinople. The ship was 43 meters in length and had burden of 1,000 tons, and was transporting wares including Ming-dynasty Chinese porcelain, painted ceramics from Italy, Indian peppercorns, coffee pots, clay tobacco pipes and Arabian incense. The nature of this cargo and the vast size of the vessel are indicative of the activity of Red Sea-Indian Ocean-Mediterranean trade routes during the Ottoman period

those were the important trade routes for the Ottoman.

The Spanish and Portuguese would have noted such a trade also - they didn't. You might want to look up Prince Henry the Navigator - he decided the way to get to trade in India was by going around Africa....

We must not forget “The Travels of Pedro de Cieza De Leon AD 1532-50.”
He writes :

“But what I noted most particularly, when I wandered about over these ruins writing down what I saw, was that from these great doorways there came out other still larger stones, upon which the doorways were formed, some of them thirty feet broad, fifteen or more long, and six in thickness. The whole of this, with the doorway and its jambs and lintel, was all one single stone. The work is one of grandeur and magnificence, when well considered. For myself I fail to understand with what instruments or tools it can have been done; for it is very certain that before these great stones could be brought to perfection and left as we see them, the tools must have been much better than those now used by the Indians. It is to be noted, from what now appears of these edifices, that they were not completed, for there is nothing but these portals, and other stones of strange bigness which I saw, some of them shaped and dressed ready to be placed on the edifice, which was a little on one side. Here there was a great idol of stone, which must have been placed there to be worshipped. It is rumoured that some gold was found near this idol; and all round there are more stones, large and small, all dressed and fitted like those already described.

I asked the natives, in presence of Juan de Varagas (who holds them in encomienda), whether these edifices were built in the time of the Yncas, and they laughed at the question, affirming that they were made before the Yncas ever reigned, but that they could not say who made them. They added that they had heard from their fathers that all we saw was done in one night.

From this, and from the fact that they also speak of bearded men on the island of Titicaca, and of others who built the edifice of Vinaque, it may, perhaps, be inferred that, before the Yncas reigned, there was an intelligent race who came from some unknown part, and who did these things. Being few, and the natives many, they may all have been killed in the wars. “

The “Ynca” laughed at him when asked how they built such gigantic architecture .
They said it was all there when they arrived .
Straight from the horses mouth, as they say.

originally posted by: Hanslune
Had such a trade system been in place there would have been an earlier version of the Columbian exchange - no such thing happened. Ottoman records don't record any such trade either.

They used secrecy to preserve security so they wouldn't have to spend much of what they gained on a large naval force to protect their findings. They also didn't want to educate the natives on the worth of what they were trading away.

Had they given away the existence of the New World to Europe, then Europeans could have sailed there and gotten gold themselves and offset the Ottoman advantage. The North and South American continents are so large they would have had to spend tremendous amounts or never sight the enemy fleet.

originally posted by: bluesfreak
The “Ynca” laughed at him when asked how they built such gigantic architecture .
They said it was all there when they arrived .
Straight from the horses mouth, as they say.

There could have been castaways instead of an exchange. A few survivors of a shipwreck could have elevated the pre-Inca society for a while until their descendants were killed or became too inbred to go on. The natives there do look somewhat North African rather than from Siberia via the land bridge, though that could be post-Columbian.

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: Hanslune
Had such a trade system been in place there would have been an earlier version of the Columbian exchange - no such thing happened. Ottoman records don't record any such trade either.

They used secrecy to preserve security so they wouldn't have to spend much of what they gained on a large naval force to protect their findings. They also didn't want to educate the natives on the worth of what they were trading away.

Had they given away the existence of the New World to Europe, then Europeans could have sailed there and gotten gold themselves and offset the Ottoman advantage. The North and South American continents are so large they would have had to spend tremendous amounts or never sight the enemy fleet.

So, basically you are hand waving away any evidence that they weren't doing it even if that evidence is well known and has a strong basis.

Sorry I am dismissing your evidence as 'made up' and 'self-serving'. Now can you explain - not just pretend it doesn't exist - why you are rejecting the evidence I provided?

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: bluesfreak
The “Ynca” laughed at him when asked how they built such gigantic architecture .
They said it was all there when they arrived .
Straight from the horses mouth, as they say.

There could have been castaways instead of an exchange. A few survivors of a shipwreck could have elevated the pre-Inca society for a while until their descendants were killed or became too inbred to go on. The natives there do look somewhat North AfrTican rather than from Siberia via the land bridge, though that could be post-Columbian.

The Inca were very late to the party their empire existed only a century before the Spanish showed up. Yep earlier SA empires and cultures existed and did stone work. This is very well established the Caral culture dates back to the same time frame of the Egyptians and Mesopotamia. 'Elevated'? In what way. Not teach them how to make gunpowder? Better their metal working - oh and how did they avoid the Columbian Exchange again and not mixing with them and leaving their DNA as clear indications of their being there - and no burials. Oh by the way was is important about September 1683?

originally posted by: Hanslunewhy you are rejecting the evidence I provided?

The so-called "evidence" you provided consists of assuming contact with the Barbary pirates or Ottomans must follow the pattern which European contact followed.

There is actually no such rule.

You are pretending I didn't already cover that.

originally posted by: Hanslune
The Inca were very late to the party their empire existed only a century before the Spanish showed up. Yep earlier SA empires and cultures existed and did stone work. This is very well established the Caral culture dates back to the same time frame of the Egyptians and Mesopotamia. 'Elevated'? In what way. Not teach them how to make gunpowder? Better their metal working -

You just said the people who predated the Inca were from ancient Egyptian times.

oh and how did they avoid the Columbian Exchange again and not mixing with them and leaving their DNA as clear indications of their being there - and no burials.

What makes you think every castaway knew enough to revolutionize their society? Do you think the average sailor knew how to manufacture gunpowder? Do you think they have tested the DNA of every deceased pre-Columbian South American, or just a few?
Don't you think they probably can't find more than just a few remains?

Oh by the way was is important about September 1683?

They lost. I didn't say their advantage went away so fast that their empire collapsed.

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: Hanslunewhy you are rejecting the evidence I provided?

The so-called "evidence" you provided consists of assuming contact with the Barbary pirates or Ottomans must follow the pattern which European contact followed.

There is actually no such rule.

You are pretending I didn't already cover that.

Its glaringly obvious you know nothing about the Ottoman economy or history. Your opinions are not supported by any known narratives or factual history.

If it is why don't you link to it?

Which of the hierachies of Ottoman society controlled this 'colonial trade'? The Mulkiye? Seyfiye? Kalemiye? or Hazine-i amire, or ilmiye?

You just said the people who predated the Inca were from ancient Egyptian times

No, people in the South America had many cultures prior to the Inca their first culture arose about the same time as the ancient Egyptians. Here is a list of the cultures presently known from South America. en.wikipedia.org...

What makes you think every castaway knew enough to revolutionize their society? Do you think the average sailor knew how to manufacture gunpowder? Do you think they have tested the DNA of every deceased pre-Columbian South American, or just a few? Don't you think they probably can't find more than just a few remains?

Gunner's mate would have - it wasn't a secret - but again you know nothing about the production of gunpowder do you? So you are admitting there is no European DNA to be found - yet you are pretending 'evidence' exists - so what is it? Your opinion is not evidence. AGAIN why did the Columbian exchange in disease not take place?

They lost. I didn't say their advantage went away so fast that their empire collapsed.

That is 191 years - they seemed to be doing just fine (well fine in the sense of the Ottoman Empire) and why did the Portuguese, French, Spanish, Dutch, and British never run into any of these Ottoman ships? Why didn't they ever find any of their ports? Did the Ottoman's just give up once Chris made his report?

originally posted by: Solvedit
]originally posted by: Hanslunewhy you are rejecting the evidence I provided?

So you are going to try and ignore my evidence---okay I am just gonna start asking you detailed questions about the Ottoman economy, trade and why you don't seem to know anything about it...Should be fun.

originally posted by: bluesfreak
We must not forget “The Travels of Pedro de Cieza De Leon AD 1532-50.”
He writes :

“But what I noted most particularly, when I wandered about over these ruins writing down what I saw, was that from these great doorways there came out other still larger stones, upon which the doorways were formed, some of them thirty feet broad, fifteen or more long, and six in thickness. The whole of this, with the doorway and its jambs and lintel, was all one single stone. The work is one of grandeur and magnificence, when well considered. For myself I fail to understand with what instruments or tools it can have been done; for it is very certain that before these great stones could be brought to perfection and left as we see them, the tools must have been much better than those now used by the Indians. It is to be noted, from what now appears of these edifices, that they were not completed, for there is nothing but these portals, and other stones of strange bigness which I saw, some of them shaped and dressed ready to be placed on the edifice, which was a little on one side. Here there was a great idol of stone, which must have been placed there to be worshipped. It is rumoured that some gold was found near this idol; and all round there are more stones, large and small, all dressed and fitted like those already described.

I asked the natives, in presence of Juan de Varagas (who holds them in encomienda), whether these edifices were built in the time of the Yncas, and they laughed at the question, affirming that they were made before the Yncas ever reigned, but that they could not say who made them. They added that they had heard from their fathers that all we saw was done in one night.

From this, and from the fact that they also speak of bearded men on the island of Titicaca, and of others who built the edifice of Vinaque, it may, perhaps, be inferred that, before the Yncas reigned, there was an intelligent race who came from some unknown part, and who did these things. Being few, and the natives many, they may all have been killed in the wars. “

The “Ynca” laughed at him when asked how they built such gigantic architecture .
They said it was all there when they arrived .
Straight from the horses mouth, as they say.

Yes, and verified by C14 dating.
That's why we call them the "Tiwanaku Culture" and not the "Inca."

Harte

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: Hanslune
The Inca were very late to the party their empire existed only a century before the Spanish showed up. Yep earlier SA empires and cultures existed and did stone work. This is very well established the Caral culture dates back to the same time frame of the Egyptians and Mesopotamia. 'Elevated'? In what way. Not teach them how to make gunpowder? Better their metal working -

You just said the people who predated the Inca were from ancient Egyptian times.

Yes he did.
And do you know why?
Because the Caral Culture DOES date to the time of the Ancient Egyptians.
Is there some kind of problem with that?

originally posted by: Solvedit
What makes you think every castaway knew enough to revolutionize their society? Do you think the average sailor knew how to manufacture gunpowder?

Do you think the average sailor knew how to build structures with megaliths?

originally posted by: Solvedit Do you think they have tested the DNA of every deceased pre-Columbian South American, or just a few?

Funny thing - DNA not only remains, but spreads. They've tested FAR more than enough.

originally posted by: Solvedit Don't you think they probably can't find more than just a few remains?

The living would also have the DNA. You don't need to find remains.

Harte

www.amazon.com...
'Lost Realms' by Zechariah Sitchin

interesting speculation on Europeans and Africans in preColumbian MesoAmerica.

aliens, too. this kind of dampens the scientific aspect.

interesting read.

originally posted by: Harte
Yes he did.
And do you know why?
Because the Caral Culture DOES date to the time of the Ancient Egyptians.
Is there some kind of problem with that?

You insanely hop around from gunners' mates making gunpowder to ancient Egyptian times.

originally posted by: Solvedit
What makes you think every castaway knew enough to revolutionize their society? Do you think the average sailor knew how to manufacture gunpowder?

Do you think the average sailor knew how to build structures with megaliths?What makes you think they copied ancient Egyptian techniques? They could have invented Mayan hieroglyphics but they could have also heard of Egyptian hieroglyphics from someone who didn't know how to write them, then created their own system. It could be the same with buildings.

originally posted by: Solvedit Do you think they have tested the DNA of every deceased pre-Columbian South American, or just a few?

Funny thing - DNA not only remains, but spreads. They've tested FAR more than enough.

originally posted by: Solvedit Don't you think they probably can't find more than just a few remains?

The living would also have the DNA. You don't need to find remains.
Harte

Once again you fall into your own trap of irrationally assuming any pre-Columbian contact had to follow the pattern of Columbian contact.

Suppose, like I originally pointed out, there was only a little contact with pirates or a few castaways. Their line could have died out.

Not to mention, if a person has Old World DNA, how do you know if it's pre- or post-Columbian? The Spanish could have had some sailors from N. Africa or the Middle East with them. They'd need a fairly comprehensive database and sophisticated analysis to gauge when an ancestor came over to the New World.

originally posted by: Hanslune
Which of the hierachies of Ottoman society controlled this 'colonial trade'? The Mulkiye? Seyfiye? Kalemiye? or Hazine-i amire, or ilmiye?

Please tell me how that would be germane.

Besides, I thought we covered it. They used secrecy for security so they didn't have to hire a large naval force to protect two unexplored continents from the very people who would come looking because they saw or heard of a large naval force sailing West.