Is the Spirit in error, or the person?

I see time and time again, when asked how do they know. They will claim the Spirit leads me to these truths. If this is the case, then why is there so many divisions in Christianity if all of these people are led by the Spirit? Or, even take ATS as an example. Why are there so many debates on faith, if everyone is led by the same Holy Spirit?

As it stands, the Spirit of God does not change, so why would said Spirit give one person one interpretation, and another a different one?

If the Holy Spirit is not in error, then it must be concluded that the person is in error.

So, the main question is, why does one person say when led via the Spirit, their word is true over another's?

reply to post by jhill76


Because most people think spirit is one thing, when spirit is actually something entirely different. Today, spirit is viewed as this eternal guide of the soul, when in all actuality, spirit is just themselves convincing themselves...with additional influence by one leader or another, on however small or large a scale.

Noetics, my friend. The power of thought, and the DESIRE TO BELIEVE. When all else fails, all we have is ourselves, and that's where belief comes from.

reply to post by jhill76


There is only spirit. Persons are a believed in concept.
You might 'think' you are a person but what is a 'person'?
Are you a concept, an idea, a thing?
What are you?

reply to post by jhill76


Everything is filtered through your perception. Your fears, your past, and your intentions are the "tunnel" a message travels through to get to you.

I don't personally believe that God speaks directly or even has any actions to take. So in this way If God does actually do that I am sure any messages directed at me would go through some other figure, or maybe just through my own thoughts?

I think it's the above mixed with varying messages for each person based on the level your soul is at, and where you are going, and how you personally may help the world that is different from anyone else.

reply to post by Dustytoad

I think it's the above mixed with varying messages for each person based on the level your soul is at, and where you are going, and how you personally may help the world that is different from anyone else.

Yes, correct, this would be for the individual person. But, what about something clear like bible passages?

reply to post by jhill76

But, what about something clear like bible passages?

As stated in your OP, if Bible passages were clear, there would only be one Church, not the dozens of denominations we see today.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jhill76

 

But, what about something clear like bible passages?

As stated in your OP, if Bible passages were clear, there would only be one Church, not the dozens of denominations we see today.

I see your point. But, if said people claim to be led, why the confusion?

reply to post by jhill76


The confusion is how we define spirit, obviously. Out of all the people who claim to know "God", all they know is what they're told and what they've been led to believe. It's much harder than starting from scratch, the way many of us on ATS have done it.

Spirituality has never been so easy as reading a book. That's what I call "Dollar Store religion." Something that is made simpler for people who are not used to working for their understanding of the universe. Unfortunately, a lot of that research leads to discovery of arcane arts that most people view distastefully due to tradition. The thing is, all of it is the same thing, just viewed from different sides. Religion, science, the occult - it's all the same diamond.

And because we're more comfortable with what's familiar, we just ignore that. Familiarity is worth more to us than the truth.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

And because we're more comfortable with what's familiar, we just ignore that. Familiarity is worth more to us than the truth.

Yes, very true. I see many who stay in that safety zone, instead of trying to find out for themselves, what the answer really is.

reply to post by jhill76

Yes, very true. I see many who stay in that safety zone, instead of trying to find out for themselves, what the answer really is.

The tip of the iceberg of my distaste for Christianity.

reply to post by jhill76


The error lies in the belief in words. Words mean different things to different people which leads to confusion. Words and language are our only barrier to truth. The truth, God, spirit is pointed to but with different words.
But words will never uncover the truth for it is the truth that lies beneath the words, before the word, prior to the word. It is what the words appear in.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The error lies in the belief in words. Words mean different things to different people which leads to confusion. Words and language are our only barrier to truth. The truth, God, spirit is pointed to but with different words.

What would the solution to this problem be?

reply to post by jhill76


It's difficult to explain. Try not believing everything you're told.

Other than that - you know what, screw it. I'm a couple beers deep, not in the clearest mindset to be explaining this, but you have to crawl out of the hole you're in before you can try to find the path you need.

Because so far, you've just been hiding in a hole in the hope that the world can survive without your help.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jhill76

 

Stop relying on what other people tell you, and recognize the subconscious desires that may lead to you deceive yourself.

And remember, no one said it would be simple or easy.

I spoke to another about this, he says, because I didn't go to church I was not doing right, because of this:

Romans 10:14

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Dustytoad

 

I think it's the above mixed with varying messages for each person based on the level your soul is at, and where you are going, and how you personally may help the world that is different from anyone else.

Yes, correct, this would be for the individual person. But, what about something clear like bible passages?

I already answered the question it's the first part of that first post.. I wouldn't know about bible passages specifically though. Basically you cannot know truth for sure, by looking at it hearing it or whatever, it's like the ultimate inside joke, you had to be there..

You're not really supposed to throw pearls before swine for this reason..

Trinitarians don't have the gift of the Holy Spirit and therefore are not led by the Holy Spirit. They are led by their feelings. The true Church is still one in unity.

Originally posted by jhill76
I see time and time again, when asked how do they know. They will claim the Spirit leads me to these truths. If this is the case, then why is there so many divisions in Christianity if all of these people are led by the Spirit? Or, even take ATS as an example. Why are there so many debates on faith, if everyone is led by the same Holy Spirit?

As it stands, the Spirit of God does not change, so why would said Spirit give one person one interpretation, and another a different one?

If the Holy Spirit is not in error, then it must be concluded that the person is in error.

So, the main question is, why does one person say when led via the Spirit, their word is true over another's?

Good question.

I think the Spirit gives the same interpretation, but explains it in a way that the individual could best understand by their life experiences. And plus, many stories in the bbble have different lessons, the Spirit will know what you need to know in order for you to unertand the bigger concept, ie "I'll tell you x because you need to hear x in order for you to do or understand y."

Also, different interpretations will arise but here comes the analogy of the body: There are different parts to a body, but each part has a specific function, and the body needs all those parts in order to move fluidly.

People can clearly understand the verse if it they ask Father about it and read the stories with context to the fact they, the authors of the books, are human, thus prone to "error"

reply to post by jhill76


To find the non conceptual awareness (spirit) that you are one needs to stop labeling (wording) yourself and everything.
To be wordless. By just seeing without words.

This is not easy for a human who has come to know a world made of words, the conditioning must be observed - the labels and words must be watched as they appear. The words shape 'your world'.

reply to post by Dustytoad

Basically you cannot know truth for sure, by looking at it hearing it or whatever, it's like the ultimate inside joke, you had to be there...

This is the most intelligent response I have heard in response to those "type of events".

The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James (full text available via link) is an exploration of exactly the phenomenon you have brought up here, jhill.

(Thx for the invite)...

His summation, from a psychological point of view based on late/mid 1800's thought, is that each of us -- as unique individuals with unique experiences, backgrounds, upbringings, circumstances, perspectives, and intelligence -- necessarily MUST experience the Spirit in a unique way. In the early part of his conclusion, he says:

Ought it to be assumed that in all men the mixture of religion with other elements should be identical? Ought it, indeed, to be assumed that the lives of all men should show identical religious elements? In other words, is the existence of so many religious types and sects and creeds regrettable?

[327] For example, on pages 135, 160, 326 above.

To these questions I answer "No" emphatically. And my reason is that I do not see how it is possible that creatures in such different positions and with such different powers as human individuals are, should have exactly the same functions and the same duties. No two of us have identical difficulties, nor should we be expected to work out identical solutions.

Each, from his peculiar angle of observation, takes in a certain sphere of fact and trouble, which each must deal with in a unique manner. One of us must soften himself, another must harden himself; one must yield a point, another must stand firm -- in order the better to defend the position assigned him. If an Emerson were forced to be a Wesley, or a Moody forced to be a Whitman, the total human consciousness of the divine would suffer.

The divine can mean no single quality, it must mean a group of qualities, by being champions of which in alternation, different men may all find worthy missions. Each attitude being a syllable in human nature's total message, it takes the whole of us to spell the meaning out completely. So a "god of battles" must be allowed to be the god for one kind of person, a god of peace and heaven and home, the god for another.

We must frankly recognize the fact that we live in partial systems, and that parts are not interchangeable in the spiritual life. If we are peevish and jealous, destruction of the self must be an element of our religion; why need it be one if we are good and sympathetic from the outset? If we are sick souls, we require a religion of deliverance; but why think so much of deliverance, if we are healthy-minded? [328]

Unquestionably, some men have the completer experience and the higher vocation, here just as in the social world; but for each man to stay in his own experience, whate'er it be, and for others to tolerate him there, is surely best.

I don't think I can improve upon his understanding of the uniqueness of Religious Experience and Perspective.
If, indeed, the Spirit dwells within us all, it must naturally respond to the circumstances and personalities of each of us, on a case by case basis, so to speak, in whatever form and adaptation best serves.