Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting

reply to post by DISRAELI


As you mentioned earlier, many protestants wish to label the harlot as babylon, how do you think they would react if you said it was their own leaders? Politically in bed with the beast. Think world council of churches.

Has the rcc not burned christians alive before? What do you think they'll do once the current crowd have served their purpose, of bringing millions of believers to the one world government??

reply to post by harryhaller

So then identifying Babylon with the World Council of Churches; (and abandoning the traditional Protestant teaching that she represents the Catholic hierarchy);
We are told about Babylon that it is "drunk with the blood of the saints"; that it has been directly involved in the persecution and death of stubborn Christians.
You can't identify this with Protestant martyrdoms at the hands of the Catholics, because you've already accepted a distinction between the papacy and Babylon.
In our new scenario, it is the World Council of Churches which will be shedding Christian blood?

reply to post by DISRAELI


No i associated the harlot as the wcc.

Babylon is the ancient system of worship, as practiced by the beast, pantheism/paganism as you will. The wcc will ACCEPT the babylonian aspects, and sinful ways. "babylon" is a system of belief, while the beast is a political power, and the women are the churches, one which has always been martyred, and the other the harlot.

Babylon has massacred the faithful for millenia, the beast for centuries, they share the blood split. But becoming one whole, they will draw all other groups into their vortex, bringing about one world government, religion and leader.

Originally posted by harryhaller
No i associated the harlot as the wcc.
... and the women are the churches, one which has always been martyred, and the other the harlot.

OK, but the fact remains that it is the Harlot which is "drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs".

reply to post by DISRAELI


Yes, political power spills blood. Always. It also brings spoils of war and priviledge.

I'm off to bed, thanks for this, very thought provoking stuff

reply to post by harryhaller

Yes, I think we've fought it out to a stand-still, like Aias and Hector.
You go back to your ships and eat your oxen among the well-greaved Achaeans (sorry, I've just been reading that book again).

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by harryhaller

 

Then who is the Harlot, and why does the Beast end up hating the Harlot and wanting to destroy her?

Great exchange all!

Beast = Political entity of 10 nations coming together as a final revival of the Holy Roman Emipire with Germany/France and Italy as the central powers (the Vatican is one of the 10 political units i.e. toes).

Harlot = All false religions as personifide in the Catholic Church as the Mother (source) of all harlots (false christainity based off of Catholic Dogma i.e Christmas, Easter, Sunday worship, weekly eurcharist etc.). Whose true origin goes all the way back to Babel, Nimrod and Semiremis.

They are tied, one is political one is religious and both include the Vatican (political and relgious authority).

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

As I was saying to Harryhaller;
Because of what happens at the end of ch17, you need to find some motivation for your version of the Beast to attack and destroy your version of the Harlot.
That will be a particular problem if you believe the Vatican is part of both of them.
A very messy civil war.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by harryhaller

 

So your interpretation of the end of ch17 is that the Papacy hates the church so much that it deliberately sets about destroying the church?
"They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh, and burn her up with fire".
This is not an easy scenario to imagine.

Beast = political 10 nations forming as one (including the Vatican).

Harlot = Catholic Church religious system (riding the Beast).

The USE (United States of Europe aka BEAST) will grow to hate the Catholic Church because they will have two very different strategies in dealing with the political changes that result after the fall of the US/UK/Israel Alliance. And at the return of Jesus Christ, those who understand the truth will repent of their thoughts and turn to God (citizens of the BEAST), however the Harlot will not and in order for God to establish His kindom on Earth through Jesus Christ as King of Kings, all false religions and false religious systems must be destroyed.

Citizens of governements (last verse of ch 17) can repent and survive (live into the millenium) false religious systems (harlot) cannot.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD


So the Catholic Church - which worships Christ - is the Beast? Uh huh. This is, of course, after the Second..or is it the Third?...Coming? You know, when God snatches up all the good Christians ( protestants)? Funny, since that's A JESUIT TEACHING.

BTW, Christian, neither Protestant or Catholic. Just sayin'....

reply to post by ElohimJD

I don't see the attack of the Beast on the Harlot coming after the return of Christ.
This is a case of "thieves falling out", in the prelude to the return of Christ.

vv16-17 in that chapter do not take place after v14, if that's what you were thinking.
Rather vv12-14 and vv15-18 are parallel paragraphs, one telling the story as it relates to the kings, the other telling the story as it relates to the woman.

Originally posted by Kyprian
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

So the Catholic Church - which worships Christ - is the Beast? Uh huh. This is, of course, after the Second..or is it the Third?...Coming? You know, when God snatches up all the good Christians ( protestants)? Funny, since that's A JESUIT TEACHING.

BTW, Christian, neither Protestant or Catholic. Just sayin'....

No I made it very clear.

Beast = 10 Nations that join together politically to fill the void of the US/UK/Israel collapse. The Vatican is one political nation.

Harlot = All False religions, but is personafide by the Catholic Church as the Mother of all Harlots (source of false christianity i.e. all doctrine which are not found in scripture and whose authority comes from the pope and no one else).

Jesus Chrsit came once to die as God Passover Sacrifice (Lamb of God) for the remission of the sins of all mankind.

Jesus Christ comes a second time to usher in the Kingdom of God on Earth as Messiah.

There is no third time, there is no rapture and I have never indicated otherwise.

Protestants are not obeying God's laws any more fully then Catholics, all are false.

God Bless,

reply to post by DISRAELI
I feel compelled to interject my thoughts into this thread,even if they ruffle a few feathers...

According to revelations and the opinion of billions of people,we await intervention by superior beings to rescue humanity...

And we've been waiting and waiting and waiting for a very long time...

Now i have a few questions to ask...

Where were these superior beings during WW-2,saving 70 million lives was'nt worthy enough to warrant their intervention?

These beings didnt feel like saving hiroshima and nagasaki either?

Surely they could have made some kind of token effort and at least disabled auschwitz?

Rest assured,theres no one coming to save us from ourselves...

The bible was inspired and written by people,not gods and people use the bibles human words as tools of control through fear and as weapons of domination...

We made our bed and we'll have to sleep in it...

We have sown the wind and we will reap the inevitable whirlwind...

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

I don't see the attack of the Beast on the Harlot coming after the return of Christ.
This is a case of "thieves falling out", in the prelude to the return of Christ.

vv16-17 in that chapter do not take place after v14, if that's what you were thinking.
Rather vv12-14 and vv15-18 are parallel paragraphs, one telling the story as it relates to the kings, the other telling the story as it relates to the woman.

12-13 and 17 are in parellel according to the interpretation I am speaking from. 18 identifies who the Harot is.

14-16 are inset verses that are in sucession to each other but not the remaining verses i.e. at some point in time Chapter 14 occurs (event driven/5th trumpet) and as a result of that verse, 15 and 16 come to pass the day of the return.

This is the interpretation I am speaking from. if you interpret these verses differently then we will naturally have a different understanding.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

Yes, I do understand v14 as coming, in effect, after the rest of the chapter, a fore-shadowing of what happens in ch.19.
That is why I interpret the war of the Beast and the Harlot as a "thieves falling out", comparable to Hitler's attack on Stalin.

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

I feel compelled to interject my thoughts into this thread,even if they ruffle a few feathers...

According to revelations and the opinion of billions of people,we await intervention by superior beings to rescue humanity...

And we've been waiting and waiting and waiting for a very long time...

Now i have a few questions to ask...

Where were these superior beings during WW-2,saving 70 million lives was'nt worthy enough to warrant their intervention?

These beings didnt feel like saving hiroshima and nagasaki either?

Surely they could have made some kind of token effort and at least disabled auschwitz...

Rest assured,theres no one coming to save us from ourselves...

The bible was inspired and written by people,not gods and people use the bibles human words as tools of control through fear and as weapons of domination...

We made our bed and we'll have to sleep in it...

We have sown the wind and we will reap the whirlwind...

edit on 27-2-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Excellent questions and 100% worthy of an answer.

Short answer: God has a perfect plan.

Long answer: God's Holy days and weekly Sabbath day teach mankind about a 7100 year plan for physical mankind to exist on Earth for a purpose. The first 6000 years (just as the first 6 days of the week) are for mankind to do his own thing, design his own governments, religions, cultures, ceremonies, militaries, beliefs etc., but the 7th day (6000-7000 years) is God's day (Sabbath). For 1000 years all mankind will not be allowed to form their own governements, have their own religions and such, all will live under the glorious rule of Jesus Chrsit and the 144,000 member Kingdom of God on Earth. After the 1000 years have finished, every human being that has ever lived and died in the history of mankind will be resurrected to physical life a second time! (unless you are already a spirit being i.e. one of the 144,000). It is in the last 100 years (full second life) that all the lessons of the physical realm amd God's way of life will be prooved to the minds of all mankind, so that by the end of it all (physical existance for mankind) there can be untold billions of members of God's family (Elohim) perfectly put into their place in the body forever a perfect dwelling place for Almighty God. If at the end you choose to not live by the perfect laws of God, after having them prooven to alway lead to happiness and joy, then your punishment is one that last for eternity, non-existance (destruction of your being/ spiritual consumption by fire) NOT eternally being punished (eternal life in torment i.e. Hell does not exist).

Let me know if you have any questions, but I fear this post might de-rail this thread a bit. I hope I am wrong.

God Bless,

reply to post by DISRAELI


Think I agree with the "thieves falling out" idea. Could these parties be wider, though, than some very specifically defined group, such as the papacy or any particularly-titled religious group? If "Babylon" identifies with those that systematically worship what is not God, the "Harlot" could identify with those that betray God, while ostensibly believing - sort of a wife that goes elsewhere, in religious terms, but still a wife. These could collude for a while, then fall out with each other.

reply to post by Anthony2

You offer some stimulating questions.
i did several threads covering the Harlot of Babylon, and observed that she seemed to combine the two features you mention; in one aspect she was a promoter of idolatry, in another she was "the unfaithful people of God", the other side of the coin to the "woman in heaven" in ch12.

As for the battle in ch17; the theory I was putting forward earlier was that the Beast has more of a political power-base, while the Harlot has more of a religious power-base, and that could be at the root of their difference.

PS Your first post, I see. Welcome to the forums.

Originally posted by ElohimJD

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by harryhaller

 

Then who is the Harlot, and why does the Beast end up hating the Harlot and wanting to destroy her?

Great exchange all!

Beast = Political entity of 10 nations coming together as a final revival of the Holy Roman Emipire with Germany/France and Italy as the central powers (the Vatican is one of the 10 political units i.e. toes).

Harlot = All false religions as personifide in the Catholic Church as the Mother (source) of all harlots (false christainity based off of Catholic Dogma i.e Christmas, Easter, Sunday worship, weekly eurcharist etc.). Whose true origin goes all the way back to Babel, Nimrod and Semiremis.

They are tied, one is political one is religious and both include the Vatican (political and relgious authority).

God Bless,

The blessing after mocking and denying the true faith. All you fellas arguing among yourselves because you have no authority.

Peter referred to Babylon in Scripture, it was a code word for evil
Rome at the time because the first Christians were being persecuted. He as their leader would see this and what happened to Peter? Peter was crucified like Our Lord but upside down.

"Babylon" today isn't just Rome as Peter spoke of but in our times it is the entire sinful world.

You make Our Lord a liar, with your words about the faith, the Church. He said thou art Peter and upon this rock (Simon's name was changed to Peter by God, Peter means ROCK) I will build My Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Matt 16:18.

Ignore history, Protestantism broke away from the Church in the 16th century and has been arguing among themselves ever since.

Very soon, God is going to show you personally, don't protest then, say yes. It's true, there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. It's logical, there is one Church. Jesus never said Churches, denominations and more division, so ridiculous, non-denomination.




1 Peter 5:13
The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Well that makes sense. Political power bases might want to take advantage of religious ones from time to time but they won't like anything that appeals to a higher authority any time the two don't agree.

Thank you for the welcome.