Christianity: What's the 'catch'?

reply to post by Lionhearte


The book of James chapter 2 explain the other deadly assumption that Christians can only believe, and have no works. To put this simply, you must work to stay pure, you may not achieve it, but you must obey scripture and put off your 'old man' and put on your 'new man' so that you are prepared for eternal life. You will not attain eternal life if you continue in sin, and have no desire to stop, cause you think your saved by grace/favour. That is a lazy excuse and it will be your downfall. You must work to defeat sin, otherwise you are a slave to it, and it will be your master.

James 2:14-26 KJV Restored
2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one Alahym; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed , and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of Yahuwah.
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead"
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"

Need I say anymore. Revelations chapter 20 is another passage that will prove Christians are lazy believers, like drug addicts who want their sunday fix for the week, but dont care to stop doing sin.

Revelations 20:11,12
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Yahuwah ; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Hmm judged according to their works.......

Revelations 20:13-15
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Seems to me works is just as importan as faith. You cannot have one or the other. You need it all! Faith, works, belief, charity, distastfulness for sin, prayer, be born again etc etc.

And I will end this off, a great quote by Yahuwshuwah himself, the judge, our Master and Savior.

Matthew 12:36,47 KJV Restored
12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

reply to post by Lionhearte

What is the CATCH of Christianity?

It isn't just Christianity...it's every religion based off of Judaism.

What's the catch? In order to be a "true" Christian, you must serve the Lord with every breath. And the best part is, half of what you are required to do defies human nature.

They say, "Do your best, for the Lord is forgiving to those who believe."

Oh really...so what you're saying is, no matter how preposterous it is, I must adhere to YOUR way of thinking in order to save MY a**? And I have to devote all of my actions and time to serving the Lord, in whatever way deems most applicable by the Bible's standards? And if I do something your church believes to be wrong, I am instantly condemned unless I beg forgiveness from the Lord?

This all may be exaggerated, but every example I just gave has been seen in hundreds of churches around the country. And it's true that you are asked to serve the Lord.

I do not believe in a God who kills innocent men and women to make a point, who advocates love and then destroys those who show love to people of the same gender. I do not believe in a deity who asks that we love our neighbors, yet is called a "jealous and angry god". I do not believe in an ultra-intelligent, super-powerful being who creates an entire race only to have that race serve Him/Her/It...it is immoral, and unloving.

What's the catch? We are told that the ONLY way to receive salvation is to believe in this tyrant, AND serve it.

Namaste.

reply to post by Seektruthalways1


Sin is human nature. Have you never heard of polarity? Every positive comes with a negative. There is no exception. It is impossible to be human and not sin.

We may not be mastered by sin, but we cannot master sin either.

reply to post by Lionhearte

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Anyways, I'll assume you, the reader, are not a Christian; or follower of Christ, or child of God, etc.. Under that assumption, answer me this simple question -

What is the CATCH of Christianity?

First of all I should say that I’m a believer in Jesus, but I wasn’t always a believer mainly because I wasn’t brought up religious, by my parents.

Knowing how things can look from the other side (a non believers perspective) so to speak, I can honestly say the biggest catch, is knowing what to believe, and just where and how to start looking. It’s a daunting task, with so many Christian denominations out there, especially if you weren’t brought up religious.

Lucky for me, I have a very strong will, and perseverance, which, with Gods guidance, helped me to continue on in my search. I will admit though, there were many times when I felt like giving up. This was mainly due to all of the theological differences within the various faiths. Each claiming, to be the truth, and to know the truth etc…

There are so many things to work through if you’re not a religious person, and each theological question, and learning, has to be taken step by step. Some people can fall at the first hurdle or get stuck somewhere in the middle, a lot depends on where their at in their lives.

It’s difficult to offer advice, because every person is on different track in their understanding. There comes a point where you have to look at the doctrinal debates/issues yourself, and try to keep an open mind. My best advice would be don’t try to force the answers, or accept what others say, and always go with Jesus words over others first.

So summing up, the biggest catch IMO, is the daunting task that lay’s before any person, especially non religious, who starts searching for God, and the frustration of not knowing, if there’s going to be any answer, at the end of their search.

I now know that God works through people in different ways depending on there personality, life situation etc…and that God is always there for people who are genuinely trying to seek him out.


- JC

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -- Mahatma Gandhi

quote

That, my friend, is the summation of one of the things that comprises "the catch" when it comes to Christianity. Jesus is an awesome dude, but Christians can be very nasty with constantly trying to turn everything into some weird competition of who's the purest and Christ-like (yay for a massive embracing of one of the 7 deadly sins). And, dude, that catch is like a slab of Mount Rushmore. Been there, done that, no desire to do it again.

reply to post by Starchild23


Who said it was impossible to not sin? You??? The Pastor on TV? Do you think im telling you a joke? Christian doctrine teaches failure. Im speaking of true doctrine from the apostles, not the catholic church, not the protestant church, the true Assembly of Yahuwshuwah. No where in scripture does it say you cannot be perfect.

Maybe I didnt make myself clear. Your goal to to be perfect, to abstain from all sin. If you think its impossible then you have been brainwashed by Christian doctrine. Explain me this then. Have you read the story about the woman caught in adultery, and the Pharisees were trying to trick the Messiah to see how he would treat her who sinned?

John 8:1-11 KJV Restored
8:1 Yahuwshuwah went unto the mount of Olives.
8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Yahuwshuwah stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Yahuwshuwah was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10 When Yahuwshuwah had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11 She said, No man, Sir. And Yahuwshuwah said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Or what about when the Messiah Yahuwshuwah was speaking to his disciples on the mountain about the new commandments?

Matthew 5:47-48 KJV Restored
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Or what about Job, did you know that Job was a perfect man?

Job 2:3 KJV Restored
2:3 And Yahuwah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth Alahym, and feareth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Or in Collosians 1:28...

Collosians 1:27-29 KJV Restored
1:27 To whom would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is the Messiah in you, the hope of glory:
1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom;
that we may present every man perfect in the Messiah Yahuwshuwah:
1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

And Noah was perfect in his generations.

Genesis 6:9 KJV Restored
6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with Alahym.

And with Abram, or what he was called before he was named Abraham.

Genesis 17:1 KJV Restored
17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Yahuwah appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am Al-Shaddai; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

So did the Messiah lie to us when he said be perfect? Did our Heavenly Father Yahuwah lie to Abraham and tell him something he couldnt do? No, he was full aware of our capabilites, and we are able to attain perfection.

No where in Scripture does it say we cannot be perfect. But we have all sinned, doesnt mean we cant walk perfect after. There is a difference.

Christian doctrine is to stay in sin, and to let 'God' or the 'holy spirit' change us. Well then I have a question for the christians.

Will 'God' stop you from lying to somebody?

Will 'God' stop you from swearing to your parents and treating them with disrespect?

Will the 'holy spirit' stop you from having sex with another mans wife?

The answer is NO! We have our part to do, the spirit will work if we give it a place to work. A seed will not grow in your backyard if it isnt planted in the soil, and watered. If you think the seed will just grow on its own without any help from the sun, water, or soil then your stupid.

We all have sinned, but it doesnt mean we cannot be perfect in our renewed self afterwards. Dont listen to Christians, they are master liars and master scripture twisters.

reply to post by Seektruthalways1

The book of James chapter 2 explain the other deadly assumption that Christians can only believe, and have no works.

Hold on now, James isn't talking about the process of salvation, go to Romans for that. James is talking about the evidence of genuine salvation.

Romans; "This is how to be saved."
James: "This is what saved people look like."

And furthermore, if the person's faith is dead, they aren't even "Christians". Christ justifies us, the Holy Spirit cleanses and washes us. We don't clean up ourselves, we just listen and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit within us.

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Those people "never" at any time were saved, "never" were in a covenant relationship with Him.

Good job with this reply, not just the above line, but all your post.

Thanks bro, you have to be extremely precise with scripture, you'll go on serious rabbit trails if not.

reply to post by KJV1611

I never said Christ gave going to church as a commandment.

Then it's not a commandment.

Period. He is the Lord, what am I missing here?

reply to post by Seektruthalways1


What about this verse, it's not John 3:16?

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Or this one?

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"

reply to post by Seektruthalways1

Hmm judged according to their works.......

Yes, that's the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign on Earth, those at this judgment are the wicked dead and the millennium humans still alive. Christians are not being judged at that judgment, the bride is helping Christ with it. That's the judgment where it says we'll be "judging angels" (fallen).

reply to post by Seektruthalways1

Who said it was impossible to not sin? You??? The Pastor on TV?

What about Paul? Do you realize he called the Christians at Corinth "brothers and sisters" in Christ Jesus. They were suing each other, getting drunk on the communion wine, and having communal sex with other church members. Paul was correcting their sins and exhorting them to press on to spiritual maturity. Why would Paul have chapters dealing with "church discipline for a Christian in sin"? And to welcome them back when they repent?

I guess Christ's blood wasn't enough, we have to complete the task of redemption ourselves?



"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9


John had himself included in this verse.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by 547000

 

The catch is Christ is telling his disciples to take up a cross and follow him--be righteous and holy.

Explain how that happens without the indwelling and daily leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit please.

Explain how disciples can be baptized and have the holy spirit, and prophesy and do great things, and yet be thrown into hell.

It's impossible. Paul says the presence of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life is the "surety" of his inheritance. And wouldn't that be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit anyways? Jesus said that sin would never be forgiven of men, but it was the only one that would not be forgiven.

Now answer my question, how can a person hope to live a holy and righteous life after Christ without CHRIST'S Holy Spirit indwelling and leading them?


Edit:

The answer is simple. It's up to you how you cooperate with God's grace.

Great answer, I'll take it! The Holy Spirit is given with God's saving grace. Not with His common grace to all mankind. And what did Jesus say? "If you love me you'll obey me." When you're born of the Spirit you love Jesus, you want to be with Him for eternity. And God's goodness through Christ leads men to repentance.

edit on 11-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

How can you be baptised in the holy spirit if the priest doing it is not holy? How should a priest that have not been opened himself/herself and have awoken be able to open the body of another for the spirit. I have not seen the chakra system in the Christian faith but for me it is spot on. For me the baptising of a child is mostly a charade and have noting to do with god unless the priest is really flowing mana from heaven and can open up chakras of the child. I was baptised as young but the holy spirit was not in me. There was a seed but that is in all that are being born.

Namaste

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Seektruthalways1

 

Sin is human nature. Have you never heard of polarity? Every positive comes with a negative. There is no exception. It is impossible to be human and not sin.

We may not be mastered by sin, but we cannot master sin either.

You are incorrect...

The spirit does not work in the same way as the physical.... Think of love as positive, and hate as negitive...

Hate can not attract love.... and only attracts more hate.. love can destroy hate, and attracts love... and increases love in all those around

One can master sin if he/she choses to do so my friend

reply to post by apushforenlightment

How can you be baptised in the holy spirit if the priest doing it is not holy? How should a priest that have not been opened himself/herself and have awoken be able to open the body of another for the spirit.

Because the priest/pastor only gets you wet. Jesus is the one who baptizes with fire, not men.

I was baptised as young but the holy spirit was not in me.

Thank you for highlighting the heresy of baptizing babies, the only thing happens when churches do that is get unbelievers wet, that's it.

Originally posted by Akragon
One can master sin if he/she choses to do so my friend

edit on 12-2-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Yes indeed - God told Cain concerning his anger toward his brother, "You must master it." That implies that anger and sin can be mastered. The whole rest of the Bible (among other things) is about the how.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Seektruthalways1

 

Who said it was impossible to not sin? You??? The Pastor on TV?

What about Paul? Do you realize he called the Christians at Corinth "brothers and sisters" in Christ Jesus. They were suing each other, getting drunk on the communion wine, and having communal sex with other church members. Paul was correcting their sins and exhorting them to press on to spiritual maturity. Why would Paul have chapters dealing with "church discipline for a Christian in sin"? And to welcome them back when they repent?

I guess Christ's blood wasn't enough, we have to complete the task of redemption ourselves?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9


John had himself included in this verse.

edit on 11-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

You are seriously mistaken about the point of grace, the Holy Spirit and what Paul was teaching. When we are in sin we live in fear of God, this fear cannot bring us to God, because God loves us he sent his son to offer Grace. Knowing that we are forgiven is supposed to free us from the burden of our PREVIOUS sin and help us turn from sin and towards God. Paul says anyone born of the Spirit will not continue to sin. What they were doing in Corinth was proof that theese people had not repented, which means to turn from sin, they could not have been baptized by the Spirit because they had failed to do what is required. REPENT AND BELIEVE.

Anyone still living in sin has not repented, no matter what your pastor says. Paul was encouraging them to repent knowing full well that by thier fruits they had proven they had not been baptized by the Holy Spirit. It is simply more loving for Paul to continue to encourage repentance, than to judge and condemn them. The bible is written for believers at all points in there walk. Today's Pastors have tried to turn the message into a one size fits all and this is not biblical.

Teaching anything less than righteousness is not biblical. If Paul was accepting sin as a way of life why did he say to kick the non repentant sinner out of the church. He even says have nothing to do with the sinner who calls himself a brother. Today's pastor's would never say this because the sinners money is just as good to pay the bill. This is why Paul commanded pastors to work and not burden the church. Money has become a stumbling block to righteous living. For the church cannot serve both God and money, and they have choose money over righteousness.

It is not possible to live without sin but it is possible to live without committing sin. This is what Jesus died for.

reply to post by sacgamer25

If Paul was accepting sin as a way of life why did he say to kick the non repentant sinner out of the church.

Paul WASN'T 'accepting sin as a way of life', his entire reason for addressing it as to exhort them to repent of them in order to press on to spiritual maturity in Christ. And that non-repentant sinner was to be welcomed back in full standing when he repented. Just like John said, if WE sin and confess OUR sins He is faithful and just to not only forgive US OUR sins, but to cleanse US from all unrighteousness.

(Notice John doesn't say "you" and "your", he includes himself.)

It is not possible to live without sin but it is possible to live without committing sin. This is what Jesus died for.

Okay, you've covered sins of commission, what about motive? What about sins of omission? Did you even read 1 Corinthians 1:1-10? Who is the letter addressed to (v. 2)?

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:"

These are Christians Paul is correcting for being in sin. Communal sex, getting drunk on communion wine, and suing each other. We screw up, that is why He came to die, and btw, when He hung on the cross ALL your sins were yet future. The ones you committed prior to your being saved, and the ones you'll commit 6 months from now when someone treats you unfairly and you do or say anything more than showing them the love of Christ.

As Martin Luther famously said:

“When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ‘Repent’, he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.”

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Then you don't take any of this verses litterally?

John 3:3-73 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

John 8:34, 36 Whosoever 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

I John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Rom. 6:16-18 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

I John 5:4 4 For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

2 Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

What do you think all those verses are saying? Personally you can quote any man you wish to quote, unless the quote is from the bible, I will stick to sound doctrine.

You keep saying John said we. How do you think John knew what he was saying is the truth. Let me help you. He did confess his sins, he was forgiven, and he was baptized by the Holy Spirit thus he was became born of God. All of his unrighteousness was cleansed, and now at the time of this writing he is living his life righteously. One cannot control the thoughts and desires of the flesh in the since that these desires are real. What one can do is control these desires through prayer and faith so that they will not act on them.

You do not have to keep sinning. God has promised to help you overcome sin, he sent his son so that you might believe that he would do this. Jesus did not die on the cross to say your forgiven now make sure you keep repenting when you sin. He died on the cross to free you from sin, so that you may live a righteous life as a son of God. You have accepted teaching that is less than righteous. Do you think that simply believing you are forgiven is the narrow path?

Luke 13:24-29 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. ...

Your pastor is teaching what people want to hear. The message in the bible is hard, don’t you remember Jesus teaching about his flesh and blood. His disciples said teacher this is a hard lesson and many stopped following him. The path to life is narrow, it is love and righteousness. Jesus taught you that everyone is your brother, and how to love your brother. He did this so that you would understand how to stop sinning against your brother. You are being called to turn away from sin. Unless you turn away from sin you have not repented, for this is the meaning of repentance. Anything less is called feeling bad, and feeling bad is not repentance.

reply to post by sacgamer25


After reading all that I'm still unsure if you think Paul's letter to the Corinthians was addressed to the church or the unsaved? And who's process is it that births us again? When Christ was talking to Nicodemus who did he say does the birthing again? Us or the Holy Spirit?