the 9mm vs .45 debate

reply to post by JROCK2527


Just remember the lesson from this poster:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/456aa7e6fb97.jpg[/atsimg]
(Options are nice to have)

It may be cost effective to own only one caliber. But its nice to have more than one. Keep your options open -- handguns, long gun, sword, knife, paintgun, baseball bat, dog, mines, etc.

Don't forget other members in your household. Can your wife and kids safely handle your .45ACP or Shotgun (aka, BOOMstick)? In my house, I make sure all occupants are trained and practice from time to time.

Luckily, my wife loves guns after going on a week training course with me. And, I don't mind sharing guns with her.

best advice ever right there star for that

I'm satisfied just fine with my SIG-Sauer SIG Pro SP 2022 in .40 S&W. I've shot a lot of pistols over the years and if I want a prisoner I'd shoot them with a 9, the 45 is more cumbersome and expensive and the .40S&W will stop a horse. IMO being a Sig is a plus.

reply to post by Nucleardiver


300 Pund Boar killed with 9mm

That was using Extreme Shock ammo. That particular brand is considerred one of the lesser performing 9mm rounds.

A 9mm will stop just as well as a .40S&W. There are plenty of cases of .40S&W failing to stop a person. The .40S&W has no mythical abilities that allow it to defy physics. When using a handgun it is all about shot placement.

There is video on You Tube of a cop shot in the face with a .45acp that lived. He didn't just live he prevailed in the encounter despite being wounded four times.

22 Shots From A .40S&W

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

FBI Report Regarding Handgun Wounding

On pdf page 12 it specifically says:
"The human target can be reliably incapacitated only by disrupting or destroying the brain or upper spinal cord. Absent that, incapacitation is subject to a host of variables, the most important of which are beyond the shooter's control. . . If the psychological factors which can contribute to incapacitation are present, even a minor wound can be immediately incapacitating. If they are not present, incapacitaion can be significantly delayed even with major, unsurvivable wounds."
(The source will not allow copy and paste.)

In other words, take out the brain or everything else is a crap shoot. Whether you are using a .45acp, .40S&W, or 9mm makes little difference. Make sure you use a bullet that can get to the vital areas in case you run in to a Platt or Palmer. Why? Because the head is a low probability target. That means you probably won't stop a person in one shot. So, being able to hit targets like the heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, and stomach is important. It greatly decreases the time spent waiting.

A bigger hole will bleed faster than a small hole in the same spot. However, I can put 9mm holes in the attacker faster than I can .40S&W holes or .45acp holes. So, I use a 9mm because two .66" holes will let out more blood than one .70" hole, or one .72" hole. It becomes even more advantagious when you consider that the 9mm out penetrates the .45acp. When you begin calculating total wound volume the 9mm starts to pull ahead because of the ability to deliver multiple shots faster.
(Winchester published data on Ranger T series 147gr 9mm, 180gr .40S&W, and 230gr .45acp)

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by Nucleardiver

 

The .40S&W has no mythical abilities that allow it to defy physics. When using a handgun it is all about shot placement.

I never said or implied that the .40 had any majical abilities just that I am satisfied with the performance, I'm sure glad I didn't actually make a statement that did disagree with you, you'd probably write a book over it. But it has been scientifically proven to have more energy.

When using any gun it's all about shot placement. Hell I once shot a haji out at 750 ms 3 times with an M24 before he fell because 2 were in the shoulder and 1 was in the upper arm and that was with .308 ammo, but this one was running like a bat out of hell. Any other time I have hit a target at full center mass with a M24 round it's been instant kill, even out past 1,000ms. So shot placement is very important.

I am just partial to the .40 S&W because it has very close velocities to the 9mm and as a standard rule has on average 10-15% more energy than the 9mm. We were issued Sig P226 as our sidearm while in the navy and it was a good, dependable sidearm. However many of us chose to go with the Sig p229 DAK which is standard Coast Guard issue and chambered in .40 S&W.

reply to post by TDawgRex
Body armor is useless against rifle rounds, and a well-placed 9mm shot at one of the unarmored areas of the body i.e. armpits, crotch, knee, head, etc. will get the job done as well as a .45.

Originally posted by schuyler
I bought into the recoil issue until I actually started shooting a .45, a 1911. My question now is, "What recoil?" I get a lot more recoil on a lightweight J-Frame .38 than a 1911. I was quite surprised at this and attribute it to the greater weight of the 1911. It can just absorb more. I actually run a Glock 19 (9mm) most of the time as the 9mm round is so very much cheaper and available. .45 is still in short supply around here.

The ideology is the same in that there is a reason why a standard issue, 3 burst .223 versus the 308. Your accuracy is greater with a 3 round burst. Not saying you can't shoor accurately with a .45, but if your not range shooting at least once a month, a 9mm is a hell of allot easier to land 2 to the chest and 1 to the head.

Plus, I'm a conceal carry and I opt for my Cougar 9mm or even my Thunder 380 over my 1911 just for the mere fact I can't conceal the 1911 very well unless it's dead winter (no pun intended).

Most police and intellegance agencies have switched to the 40 for 2 reasons. Better stopping power than the 9 but better accuracy than the 45 a longer ranges. Everything is fairly accurate at 5 to 10 ft. It's when you have a guy firing at you from 30 ft that you want to be accurate as hell.

reply to post by Nucleardiver


I must have taken your statement the wrong way.

if I want a prisoner I'd shoot them with a 9, the 45 is more cumbersome and expensive and the .40S&W will stop a horse.

To me that sounds like, "a 9mm won't kill a 200lb man but a .40S&W will bowl over a 1,200lb animal."

Yes the .40S&W does have about 70lb/ft more muzzle velocity. Unfortunately we are still talking about sub 500lb/ft of force. Most people can punch with equal or greater force. It really isn't a huge deal unless you are shooting through auto glass or something of that nature. Even then a 147gr 9mm performs very similar to the mid weight .40S&W. We're talking .5" difference in penetration and .02" difference in over all expansion.

Which round does better in pentration and expansion depends on the design of the bullet. With The Winchester Ranger T series the 147gr 9mm performs on par with, or better than, the .40S&W in many tests. I out performs the 165gr in wallboard and denim tests. It outperforms the 180gr in wallboard and heavy clothing tests. Evything is a compromise and no one round is "the best." However, the 147gr 9mm holds its own with .40S&W regardless of percieved weakness by some.

I just misunderstood your post. I've also spent a lot of time researching the topic from different angles for my own education. I have read more than a few OIS reports for a departmental project and had the chance to speak with several ED docs that treat gun wounds on a regular basis. So, I get a little touchy on the subject when I think something might be headed in to BS land. It is a subject that affects people's lives.

I've seen the real aftermath up close and personal, much like you it seems. I know what it can do to the person that has been shot and to the family of the wounded. I want people to make the choice of what is comfortable and what works for them. I just don't want something that is, or appears to be, misinformation to sway them in the wrong way.

This really isn't a rant against you or torwards you. It is just me addressing things I see over and over again.

The only real answer to the debate is, whichever you shoot best that makes you feel comfortable. When it comes to .40S&W or 9mm there is little difference. The .45acp is going to give you a bigger hole nearly every time. However, the penetration isn't always that much better unless you are going through a barrier. When it comes to the .45acp you get some increase in performance but usually at a large decrease in capacity. You also get a big increase in recoil.

I'm rambling and repeating. It is time for me to go work out so I can wake up.

I'll pass on both calibers and opt for the FN 5.7mm

reply to post by MikeNice81


Good points, MikeNice81. You've definitely done your research.

As for the previous posts, if there's trouble in my house, the first thing I'd reach is a longgun (e.g., boomstick, rifle). But if I know there's trouble where I'm heading but discretion is required, then I'm taking my .45ACP and a jacket. With everyday carry, my 9mm compact will be on me. Keep your options open. The best weapon you take into combat is the best one you have available on yourself.

The other scenario is SHTF. For handguns, I'd prefer a high-capacity 9mm. It carries a lot more ammo and, like .45s, its more available than .40S&W.

I'm very comfortable with .45s. I've trained with it most of my life. It may not be for everyone, but its great for me.

I chose the easy compromise, I use nothing but .40 S&W rounds. Good stopping power, economical cost, and will easily blow through a windshield if needed.

Originally posted by guppy
reply to post by JROCK2527

 

Just remember the lesson from this poster:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/456aa7e6fb97.jpg[/atsimg]
(Options are nice to have)

It may be cost effective to own only one caliber. But its nice to have more than one. Keep your options open -- handguns, long gun, sword, knife, paintgun, baseball bat, dog, mines, etc.

Don't forget other members in your household. Can your wife and kids safely handle your .45ACP or Shotgun (aka, BOOMstick)? In my house, I make sure all occupants are trained and practice from time to time.

Luckily, my wife loves guns after going on a week training course with me. And, I don't mind sharing guns with her.

We run a regular "weapons check and pep rally" around here often. All of the available weapons are brought out, everyone learns to clean and load them, and everyone fires rounds through all of them to make sure they can fire them if needed.

In fact, we will be doing that again this weekend.

Originally posted by matadoor
We run a regular "weapons check and pep rally" around here often. All of the available weapons are brought out, everyone learns to clean and load them, and everyone fires rounds through all of them to make sure they can fire them if needed.

Great job! Can I assume everyone means family and friends? Or are you talking about your close neighbors?

How often do you perform this "weapons check and pep rally" event? Must be expensive going thru that much ammo. Budget constraints limit how often I can practice. Wish I had the budget of a SEAL team. Luckily, there's a lot of things you can practice with a firearm that don't involve shooting. For example:

1. Malfunction Clearance Drills
   
2. Emergency Magazine Change
   
3. Tactical Reload
   
4. Low-Light Chamber Check
   
5. Ambidextrous Practice
   
6. Single-Hand Operations
   
7. Movement Drills
   
8. Stance Drills
   

Originally posted by matadoor
In fact, we will be doing that again this weekend.

Ummm... can I get an invite? I'll bring the beer.

Originally posted by Shadowalker
There isnt any debate. 9mm for the ladies
.45 for the gents. .40 S&W for the metro gents.

Likely the best way to sum it up! .45 without a doubt!

Remington 1000 rounds FMJ .45 = $369
Remington 1000 rounds FMJ 9mm = $219
American Eagle 1000 rounds 40 = $319

Just FYI from Ammunition to Go

I usually use American Eagle, which is a few bucks more expensive. Prices are way down from last year when I paid $369 for 9mm. I wouldn't use FMJ for CC, of course. This is just target practice ammo.

I took a one-day defensive handgun on Saturday. I got burned by flying brass twice, munched the heel of my hand on a loose magazine malfunction drill. When I got home I found a cartridge in my front breast pocket, one fell out of my wallet (!!) and there was one in my satchel. I figure I could have just stood there a few more hours, filled my pockets with enough brass to sell so I could treat my burns. I was so tired from standing on concrete that I slept for ten hours that night. My knees were killing me.

I did Okay, though. I definitely saw an improvement over the day. shot about 300 rounds. The one-day was better in some ways than the 4-day I took at Frontsight last Spring. Those guys are brutal

Originally posted by James1982
OP probably could have used a bit more info in it....

I don't think anyone is debating the performance between the two, the .45 wins hands down. Overall usefulness is the issue, with the 9mm being easier on recoil, smaller, lighter, and generally with higher capacity. Although with double-stack .45s being pretty common now, the capacity issue is starting to go away.

Personally I feel that both the 9mm and .45 are out of date, the only reason they are still used is because there is such huge industry support for them, and people don't like change.

The 9mm and .45 fill different roles, but in those specific roles there are superior rounds.

Instead of 9mm and .45, it should be .357sig and 10mm. The .357sig fits the roles traditionally held by 9mm, and offers superior performance. Just like the 10mm fits roles traditionally held by the .45, and also has superior performance.

So, in short my answer is I don't care about either 9mm or .45s, because they are both
inferior to the .357sig and 10mm.

Wow you are totally in denial about the failures of the two afformentioned rounds.

The 357 sign which I like and have owned two in the past has issues.
First reliability, due to its rifle like design its more apt to jam. And I've seen it jam in both sigs and
glocks curiously not in my Taurus though. Second the rounds deteriorate in storage very quickly and the bullet may sink into the casing. I would not trust my life to this round but a 9mm in any make is usually reliable as the day is long.

Now 10MM first off is prohibitively expensive. I misewell carry a snub nose 44magnum if I wanted two pay that much per round. Secondly the recoil is much stiffer than a 45 auto which has perfect backward recoil due to its. Low muzzle veloicty allowing you to get back on target quickly with no barrel flip. The 10mm is essentially a big 9mm and the recoil characteristics due to its high muzzle velocity are much harder to handle.

Neither the 9mm nor 45 is outdated they are perfect for what they are 100% reliable and accurate in any situation. I prefer the 45 for stopping power.

Originally posted by ISHAMAGI
Now 10MM first off is prohibitively expensive.

I'm curious as to why you would say that, particularly after I just posted a price comparison. 40 is 31 cents, 9mm is 21 cents, .45 is 37 cents. Now if you're going to blow off a few hundred rounds a week I can see how that would come into play, but most people buy in boxes of 50, not 1,000, and that's $10-$15. There's a lot more variation in ammo type. 9mm hollow pont or frangible at 50 cents or more is a lot more expensive than .40 FMJ.

The guns themselves are equivalent. I just saw a Glock 19 (9mm) and a Glock 23 (.40) both for $499. I guess it depends on where you hang your hat on the definition of "prohibitive." It takes me a year to go through 1,000 rounds, so I'm not thinking it's much of an issue.

reply to post by MikeNice81


A well placed Pellet will kill you just as fast as a .45...

Originally posted by Shadowalker
There isnt any debate. 9mm for the ladies
.45 for the gents. .40 S&W for the metro gents.

quote of the month.

But seriously, I prefer the 9 because I, (speaking for myself here), am more accurate with the "two to the body, one to the head" approach with the 9. Just what I learned from shooting both of those weapons and the 357.

Originally posted by matadoor
reply to post by MikeNice81

 

A well placed Pellet will kill you just as fast as a .45...

Very true, the key being "well-placed." With a .45, a near miss counts!

Not quite on the topic, but my last instructor pointed out that a well-placed group does not mean shots close together because you aren't doing any additional damage. A better approach is shots further apart which cause more trauma. An interesting approach I'd never heard before.