Evolution compatible with Creation?

reply to post by dusty1


Of course evolution is true! There is countless evidence to prove evolution is true. Religion is not true. You pick the good parts in the Bible and twist them wrongly. I could care less how you see Atheist view the Bible. The Bible is even more Pagan then other religious text it copies.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

I could care less how you see Atheist view the Bible.

Ah, Romantic Rebel.........

Look, the bible says slavery is ok. You can twist and turn it as you like, try to talk semantics, but it mentions SLAVERY specifically. If the bible is god's word, you should agree with it. So I'm curious dusty, do you agree with slavery?

Don't try to weasel your way out of it! It specifically mentions the world slavery. And if not, why not? It's the word of god and you agree with the genesis account. So what's the difference? Is it ok to cherry-pick whatever you like...but ultimately it's still all true?

reply to post by dusty1


Thanks for the video. My statement still stands. Why do you view your interpretation on the Bible is correct and all others are wrong or taking the verses out of cortex? Are you one of those believers who believes in Jesus and believes Christianity is the only truth?

reply to post by MrXYZ

Look, the bible says slavery is ok

Please show me that quote in the Bible.

So I'm curious dusty, do you agree with slavery?

I am a slave.

I am a slave to sin and death.

In this world I will never truly be free. Those that think they are truly free, are kidding themselves.

We all serve someone or something. However, sometimes we can choose our Master.


Do I believe that men and women should be oppressed, by men, with money and power?

Of course not.



If you think God's original purpose was for humans to be slaves, then you do not know God.

This world isn't always sunshine and rose pedals.

Sometimes God does the best He can, with what He has to work with at the time.

I have no doubt that the body my soul inhabits is a product of Evolution.

I believe evolution exists as in that we all adapt to our environment, but I also believe a creator exists and created souls, etc.
That's why I think Evolution and Creation could be compatible.

reply to post by dusty1

Sometimes God does the best He can, with what He has to work with at the time.

Which means he's not all-powerful

Anyway, slavery in the bible:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Open racism and slavery in one single verse. Nice...

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

So keeping the wife hostage to make the man turn himself over for life is ok...yeah, that god has some really noble rules.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Notice how the man can marry AND take another wife. Funny little contradiction with later sections...just one of the many contradictions

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

So just make sure he lives another day and it's all good. Nice god!

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Be a good little sheep and do exactly as we say, be obedient. An obedient little worker drone! Do you see the relation to today where politicians also appeal to faith when programming citizens with their slogans? "Oh, she said god bless...she's a Christian and must have a good heart...yeah, I totally agree with Palin." Nothing but a way to control the masses, and ALL politicians do it in the US.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

So if you mess up and it's your fault, you'll be SEVERELY punished. If it's not your fault, you'll only be lightly punished. Yeah, getting punished for doing nothing wrong sounds like a really cool rule.


In the end, I'm not even discussing the content because I realize it was written by MEN. What I am discussing is that people pretend to accept things like the genesis account, but then completely ignore the "bad stuff" like the things I posted above. There's equally horrible passages about rape and open racism in the bible too.

Arguably it also has good passages (thou shall not kill, etc.). But it still shows that some of the content is at best questionable, and more likely complete garbage as the quotes above show. Not something I'd expect from a benevolent suppressing that only has our best interests at heart. Sounds more like a way to make people subservient. And if you disagree with those passages, you kinda have to start asking questions about the rest as well, including Genesis!

reply to post by MrXYZ


So no sex slaves in the Bible then?



Back to the original topic...........

reply to post by dusty1


There were sex slaves. I don't see why you didn't read the links I offered early today.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Source

Sounds like you can't admit the Bible is not perfect.

reply to post by edmc^2


This was in another thread. Of course animals change.



The question is this.

Is the change we see pre-programmed into these animals to allow for variety?

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

So no sex slaves in the Bible then?



Back to the original topic...........

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Well, for only 50 pieces of silver, you too can get the woman of your dreams. Rape her first though so she can't get away...oh, and no divorce possible, she's yours for life

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB

Pretty much sounds like sex slavery to me. It specifically says you need to sleep with her...

I love how quickly wanna move on to the next subject though...feeling a bit uncomfortable about the truth of the bible? I hope so, because those things are deplorable and even if god said that stuff, I would fight him to the death. I am against rape and slavery!

I have a feeling you're gonna try to change the subject super quick now...possibly by going back to attacking evolution, right?

reply to post by dusty1

Is the change we see pre-programmed into these animals to allow for variety?

Some change comes from mutations, but a large part is adaption to the environment. Given that the environment is unpredictable (meteorites taking out dinosaurs, us polluting the air), pre-programming stuff would be kind of hard.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

There were sex slaves. I don't see why you didn't read the links I offered early today.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Hmm...

I guess you must feel that a wife = sex slave.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

reply to post by dusty1


Not at all! I don't see a woman as a sex slave. I just wanted to prove what the Bible says about sex slaves. Don't shot the messenger shot the author.

reply to post by MrXYZ

I love how quickly wanna move on to the next subject though...feeling a bit uncomfortable about the truth of the bible?

You derailed this thread and I have been indulging you on this other topic all afternoon.

Well, for only 50 pieces of silver, you too can get the woman of your dreams. Rape her first though so she can't get away...oh, and no divorce possible, she's yours for life

The Bible passage from Deuteronomy says "lie with".

Read the whole thing. A rapist is to be put to death. If you have sex with a virgin that is not engaged, you are expected to marry her, with the consent of the virgin and her family.

If I were an Israelite and someone raped my daughter I would either kill him or make sure he walked with a limp all his days.

Sexual relations were taken very seriously in the Mosaic Law.

Couldn't this law prevent rape, or a he said she said? Think about it, and stop cutting and pasting from anti religious web sites.

Use some common sense.

I have a feeling you're gonna try to change the subject super quick now...possibly by going back to attacking evolution, right?

You mean like getting back to the topic of the OP?

reply to post by MrXYZ

Some change comes from mutations, but a large part is adaption to the environment. Given that the environment is unpredictable (meteorites taking out dinosaurs, us polluting the air), pre-programming stuff would be kind of hard.

What did you think of the video?

Originally posted by dusty1

Read the whole thing. A rapist is to be put to death. If you have sex with a virgin that is not engaged, you are expected to marry her, with the consent of the virgin and her family.

Show me where it says anything about the consent of the virgin!!

But you're right, it's off-topic. Doesn't change the fact that you asked me a question, and as soon as you got the uncomfortable answer, you went all "ok, let's move on"

You were all into it until you didn't like it anymore and you felt it attacked your belief. Another display of ignorance, and that IS part of the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Some change comes from mutations, but a large part is adaption to the environment. Given that the environment is unpredictable (meteorites taking out dinosaurs, us polluting the air), pre-programming stuff would be kind of hard.

What did you think of the video?

I love BBC's Horizon series. They have an amazing part about space too by the way, explaining how all the components of life can be found in the centre of stars.

The video's a good example out evolution...however, one small difference. This time it was us who directly intervened and created those new breeds. Most of the time it's a natural process. For example, if those foxes lived in a region up north, and year after year it gets colder and the soil stays frozen for longer. That makes it harder for them to dig for worms/mice. So it would make sense for them to develop slightly larger claws that can cope with harder soil. The fox would eventually adapt to the environment.

Now fast forward 400,000 years. That same "fox" has adapted tons of times. In the movie you saw it changed color and the tail changed too...after only 8 generations! The next generation could grow smaller for whatever external environmental region. All sorts of changes could happen. On the timescale of the earth, eventually, you won't call whatever it turns into "fox" anymore. It might have some fox DNA left over...but you wouldn't recognize it as a fox.

The mouse and the elephant are good example of that. They share common DNA and are in fact common cousins. You'd never say they're the same species though when you look at them. But if you shave an adult mouse, pull its nose, increase the length of 2 teeth, make it fatter, and then blow it up...well...not too far off given you had a few 100k years to evolve. Very similar basic bone structure anyway. Of course the mouse and elephant didn't develop from eachother, they had a common ancestor. But you get the base idea.

I think what a lot of people forget (or probably can't imagine) is the timescale.

You obviously like the bible, it's between 1500 and 2000 years old. The oldest homo sapiens remains we have go back to 250,000 years. Neanderthals can be found as long back as 400,000. Now, it us "only" 2000 years to go from sitting in tents and fearing lightning as the wrath of god to flying from London to NYC in 6 hours, book a flight into space with Richard Branson in the afternoon, and twitter about it on our iPhone the whole time.

Now, the first insects (ancestors of insects) popped up 570 million (!!!) years ago. First multicellular life popped up 1 billion (!!) years ago. So basically, we had over 500,000 times (times, not years!!) longer to evolve into humans than it took us to get from tents in the desert to space flight.

Creationists always say "we don't believe in macro-evolution". But just look at that timescale. If that fox in your video changed by that much after only 8 generations, do you really think that fox would still look anything like a fox if you gave it let's say...1 million years to adapt and evolve?? It "might" if the environment doesn't change or if it doesn't move around at all. But as we know, in 1 million years the earth's eco system changes...so that fox would continue to change.

Think about the time scale! And that should also make it abundantly clear why we shake our heads when people talk about humans only being on earth for little over 6k years...

reply to post by MrXYZ

But you're right, it's off-topic. Doesn't change the fact that you asked me a question, and as soon as you got the uncomfortable answer, you went all "ok, let's move on"

You were all into it until you didn't like it anymore and you felt it attacked your belief. Another display of ignorance, and that IS part of the subject of this thread.

You brought the topic up to start with.

Show me where it says anything about the consent of the virgin!

You must not have much respect for Israelite fathers. I love how you atheists portray people in the Bible as two dimensional cut outs.

I think most fathers naturally love their daughters. What if the father is dead? Do you think mom is going to let a rapist marry her daughter without her daughters consent? Please.

The family would have to, accept, the offering. They would have a choice.

These laws were there to protect women and their offspring.

These laws were set up before hand to try and prevent problems, like serial rapists and false allegations.

Think about it, even if your portrayal were correct, the engaged woman could have the rapist killed, she is engaged and violated by another man.

The unengaged virgin could say nothing, and not have to marry him. Later the victim could get engaged, tell her fiance about it, he could wait in the bushes, she could lure the rapist to her, scream, and they kill the rapist before he does it again.

All within the Mosaic Law.

Rapists deserve to die.

The End.