TSA, does it have the right?

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

am i ??? do you know that there are ;laws ready to go into effect that will kill sites like this make it so if you protest any act of detainment it will be considered a act of a combatant, we all know what that gets one way trip to "git mo" When a power says it has the right when in fact it does not it is time to stand up and say "do not think so" no ther are getting the message in to days news, TSA is looking at a Xray that is less showing, and at other less intrusive searching,

I'm not entirely sure why I continue to entertain you or this thread in general but I'll have another stab at posing the question all those that support your point of view seem to have avoided; do you suggest we abandon physical pat downs simply because we might "offend" people?

What security measures do you propose we implement?

Please stop with your fictitious comparisons between a pat down and sexual abuse, it's getting boring and beyond ridiculous.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by retiredTxn

 

Yep, I've been patted down plenty of times and it hasn't ever bothered me in the slightest, why would it?

It should bother anyone if they are not conditioned to believe this is a normal part of our daily lives. I am 51 years old and have never been pat searched other than in training exercises. I find no reason to accept this as normal, nor should other Americans accept this. It's about power, nothing else.

Originally posted by retiredTxn

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by retiredTxn

 

Yep, I've been patted down plenty of times and it hasn't ever bothered me in the slightest, why would it?

It should bother anyone if they are not conditioned to believe this is a normal part of our daily lives. I am 51 years old and have never been pat searched other than in training exercises. I find no reason to accept this as normal, nor should other Americans accept this. It's about power, nothing else.

Don't be ridiculous.

reply to post by retiredTxn


it's futile trying to argue with Death Kron because he's a bloody Brit. He is already conditioned to being guilty until proven innocent. The problem is that here in the US we don't have people thorough enough to prove anyone innocent.

Death Kron's opinion doesn't matter or weigh in on this discussion because he's not allowed the same rights and freedoms that we American's are.

Death Kron why don't you come become an American Citizen before it's too late and live here with the current freedoms then go home. Tell how you will feel then.

reply to post by bekod


I see all to clearly................I'm pretty old and have watched over the last four decades how slowly and meticulously our freedoms have been stipped away.

Cameras on every street corner, Body scanners, fences and "fusion centers" going up, our private computer communications under surveillance, our phones tapped, the list is getting longer by the year not even decade now................HELLO, wakey wakey people.

I see all too clearly a pattern and that pattern is called a "prison planet".

Ten years ago, I use to think Alex Jones and David Icke were a little "off" - well turns out they knew the score, they both predicted this train was coming.

It's time for the rest of the sleeping beauties to awaken because the few of us that are awake and aware cannot fight this tyranny alone........"United we stand, divided we fall".

The time for looking down at your shoes and quietly allowing this crime against humanity's life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness has got to stop.

Or, the world we will leave our children and those that come after them will be a bleak world indeed.

How far is this going to continue, will enough of us awaken and have the insight to unite and the guts to fight this tyranny? Only time will tell. Most people now are just so overloaded and distracted, it's hard to say.



I agree enough is enough, you cannot take grope, take nude photos of people yet we calmly let our government do it...........all in the name of "Homeland Security".

The duty of our government is to protect our rights not infringe upon our rights. I say lets make every members of Congress and the Senate get groped and scanned.......no, they have "private jets" and "privledged status".

reply to post by Stryker Ops


Your actually innocent until proven guilty in the UK...

If you have so many freedoms in the US then I'm a little unsure as to why you are posting about this topic?

reply to post by Death_Kron


We have two lawyers in our family............and you are innocent accordingly to how much money you have.

Case in point, OJ Simpson.

Here in America, our voting system is rigged and our "justice" is melted out by how good of a lawyer you can afford.................same goes for England too as now this problem is global.

Again, united we ALL OF US stand, divided we fall.

Originally posted by Death_Kron

Originally posted by retiredTxn

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by retiredTxn

 

Yep, I've been patted down plenty of times and it hasn't ever bothered me in the slightest, why would it?

It should bother anyone if they are not conditioned to believe this is a normal part of our daily lives. I am 51 years old and have never been pat searched other than in training exercises. I find no reason to accept this as normal, nor should other Americans accept this. It's about power, nothing else.

Don't be ridiculous.

What is ridiculous about my post? If all you are going to do is answer every post with one liners, why reply?
Answer me this; why should we as American citizens accept a pat search as normal? Why do you see this as a non-issue, and why do you feel those who oppose your point of view are blowing this out of proportion?

IMO it is ridiculous to give up the power of control over one's person, simply because some unelected bureaucrat decides "so it is said, so it shall be written". It doesn't work that way in a Republic. If we allow it, where are we headed?

One final question. Where will YOU draw the line?

reply to post by retiredTxn


If you read my posting history you'll notice that I very rarely post one liners in threads except in those that I feel that the debating members are not looking at the other side of the coin and/or have extremely biased and unfounded beliefs...

A pat down search is simply a pat down search, at 51 years of age I find it hard to accept that you believe this to be an injustice or infringement of your personal rights. Why do you, along with the majority of others posting in this thread, seem to believe that security pat downs are a negative measure?

Do you really believe the US government is paying employees to physically search random people at airports in order to harass them? That's a pathetic and almost laughable notion and one that many of you in here have alluded to.

If you don't embrace security protocol then maybe you should embrace the after effects of it not being present in the first place, maybe police officers shouldn't check on suspicious packages/articles/people in public for fear of offending them?

The whole argument presented in this thread is pathetic, people likening physical pat downs to sexual abuse or almost implying that a physical search is as invasive as being raped by a stranger in broad day light.

Once again, I will pose the question, what do you think we should do instead of patdowns? It's proven that they are effective in stopping acts of crime/terror, if that wasn't the case they wouldn't have been used for hundreds of years?

Should we adandon all attempts at preventing terrorism because a few prudes find it offensive?

You all need to get off your high horse and stop over exaggerating a minor issue and twisting it into something you can sit here behind your computers and complain about looking for your 15 minutes of fame.

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Is your reply with sarcastic humour an indication that I have a point and you don't have an answer for it?

No.. it wasn't actually.
I made my case. They don't have to touch you like that to determine whether or not you have a bomb.
There are other avenues to explore. Also, what is there reason for this nonsense? Where is the real threat?

I have no problem with being searched at an airport. I would even welcome a full cavity search if it was necessary.
People can hide things in very weird places and crevices. Without a full search, who knows what the guy next to you smuggled into the plane between his butt cheeks?
I believe these guys are just doing their job, and it is getting blown out of proportion on this thread.

VvV

No offense, but are you truly serious? And exactly WHERE do children fit into that? In WHAT WORLD would it EVER be acceptable for NON-MEDICAL personnel to insert their fingers into the orafices of a three year old girl or boy? Do you realize an event like that would literally SCAR A CHILD FOR LIFE? Are you then willing to part with even MORE of your money to afford the tax that will be needed to offer COUNSELING to each and every child that has been mentally traumatized by such an event?

I think this is the first time I've ever truly become incensed reading something on a thread here.

ETA: What I don't understand? Why don't they use dogs? Why do they not follow the model of El Al, which is THE safest airline in the world? The patdowns are NOT necessary as there are already far more effective methods which have been suggested to the DHS.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by retiredTxn

 

If you read my posting history you'll notice that I very rarely post one liners in threads except in those that I feel that the debating members are not looking at the other side of the coin and/or have extremely biased and unfounded beliefs...

I have read many of your posts, and especially liked many of them. I do see the other side of the coin, but don't accept that as the norm and my beliefs are founded in the documents that govern this country.

A pat down search is simply a pat down search, at 51 years of age I find it hard to accept that you believe this to be an injustice or infringement of your personal rights. Why do you, along with the majority of others posting in this thread, seem to believe that security pat downs are a negative measure?

Pat searches are the most ineffective form of preventing contraband from passing from point A to point B. Prior to the mid 70's, few people arrested or investigated by law enforcement were subjected to pat searches. Yes, they were used, but not every time one was detained or arrested. Over time, LEO's found pat searches to be an effective tool in finding obvious contraband, as well as a good tool in throwing criminals off guard, and also elicited many verbal disclosures of where placement of contraband was located. I taught thousands of people over a span of 21 years how to perform pat searches, and how to defeat them. Their only real purpose was to show authority over a group of individuals, and maybe find a little bit of contraband. Are they a negative measure? Yes, if they are not used judiciously and only when warranted.

Do you really believe the US government is paying employees to physically search random people at airports in order to harass them? That's a pathetic and almost laughable notion and one that many of you in here have alluded to.

If you don't embrace security protocol then maybe you should embrace the after effects of it not being present in the first place, maybe police officers shouldn't check on suspicious packages/articles/people in public for fear of offending them?

I would actually say harass and condition. Laugh if you must, but this is just another step in the wrong direction. I do embrace security protocols, but this has gotten insane. Making a 4 year old handicapped child remove their leg braces and then demanding they walk through a scanner is normal and acceptable? This has nothing to do with police officers performing their duties.

Link to full pdf

ALAMEDA COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY’S OFFICE
The question has been asked: Why can’t officers pat search all detainees? It’s a legitimate question, especially considering that the “armed or dangerous” requirement was established 40 years ago when weapons and violence were much less prevalent than they are now.9 Still, there are reasons for not permitting indiscriminate pat searches. As the Supreme Court observed in the landmark case of Terry v. Ohio, the pat search is a “sensitive area of police activity”10 which “must surely be an annoying, frightening, and perhaps humiliating experience.”11 The Court went on to say: [I]t is simply fantastic to urge that [a pat search] performed in public by a policeman while the citizen stands helpless, perhaps facing a wall with his hands raised, is a “petty indignity.” It is a serious intrusion upon the sanctity of the person, which may inflict great indignity and arouse strong resentment, and it is not to be undertaken lightly.12

The whole argument presented in this thread is pathetic, people likening physical pat downs to sexual abuse or almost implying that a physical search is as invasive as being raped by a stranger in broad day light.

Once again, I will pose the question, what do you think we should do instead of patdowns? It's proven that they are effective in stopping acts of crime/terror, if that wasn't the case they wouldn't have been used for hundreds of years?

Should we adandon all attempts at preventing terrorism because a few prudes find it offensive?

You all need to get off your high horse and stop over exaggerating a minor issue and twisting it into something you can sit here behind your computers and complain about looking for your 15 minutes of fame.

edit on 19/11/10 by Death_Kron because: (no reason given)

Many find pat searches to be invasive and many liken them to sexual assault. No, we shouldn't abandon all attempts at preventing terrorism, but we need some sanity when it comes to applying these tools we have in place. I said in a previous post I don't have the answer, but if we wait for my answer, we could be in trouble. Not my job. I prefer sitting up here on my horse avoiding my 15 minutes of fame.

reply to post by burdman30ott6
i could not have said it better, we should not give in to terror, nor have our rights taken away, we should find a way to have our rights and our safety, to me it seems that all this TSA anti terror policy is just a way to show us just who has the most power over you, there is no easy answer nor fix, i feel it will get worse than better, like i said, if they really want to kill they will and there is no stopping that, they know they are winning, by putting fear in to us and the way we give in, we have lost the will to fight, i have often wondered how FDR would handle, or WC, for that matter, the mess we are in. i do not have the one single answer as to how to fight them, other than say, we will not give in we will not let you decide how we travel, we will have our guards up we will stand tall, we will over come this, for we have seen , been through worse, words are words, actions speak louder, and freedom is the best action too take.
yes i know it is wishful thinking, and many of you will say that is leaving the door open, not if you do it right.

reply to post by Death_Kron


Wait.. you don't know what's going on do you?
It's not over your clothes anymore. They are groping you, it's practically a physical. Though when they go in your pants they use the back of their hand so you're a little more comfortable.

reply to post by Death_Kron


Again.. pat downs have always existed. It's the "new and improved" search technique that was instituted when people started opting out of the scans. Look into what is involved with the new enhanced "pat downs."

reply to post by bekod


Yes they have the right if you want to fly. If you don't want to fly, then they don't have the right. You still have a choice. It might be a minority that dictates that we get fondled, but they are doing it to reduce the risk of planes blowing up or getting hijacked. Complain when you are not offered a choice, It is the same thing as if you want to work, you have to take a pee test. It is your choice. Sumit or die, you will be assimilated and ressistance is futile.

reply to post by earthdude


It is our right to fly. The public have been vocal that they don't like these scanners, the fondling is only used when you opt out. This means they need to find another way. We have the right to fly and we have the right to privacy. So they are stepping on one if not both of those rights when both should be available to us with comfort. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to enjoy something that is ours, our rights.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

You ever hid a bomb under your clothes?

Just wait until someone hides a bomb in their butt. Are you also in favor of anal cavity searches because if these reactionary responses are logical, that's the next logical step.

Keep in mind the following:
A terrorist put a bomb in his shoes-we now must remove our shoes.
A terrorist put a bomb in his underwear-now we must be groped.
A terrorist WILL put a bomb in his @ss-The next step is that everyone must have a complete cavity search prior to boarding.

Originally posted by Death_Kron

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

It's not just a pat down. You need to go try this out for yourself. It's punishment for not going through scanners that rob your of your privacy and possibly endanger your health.

Then go through the scanners....?

The scanners are actually illegal. They are an attempt at warrantless searches and also if a child is scanned, they are creating and distributing child pornography. Why would anyone legitimize this by complying?

Originally posted by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow

Originally posted by Death_Kron
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Is your reply with sarcastic humour an indication that I have a point and you don't have an answer for it?

No.. it wasn't actually.
I made my case. They don't have to touch you like that to determine whether or not you have a bomb.
There are other avenues to explore. Also, what is there reason for this nonsense? Where is the real threat?

I have no problem with being searched at an airport. I would even welcome a full cavity search if it was necessary.
People can hide things in very weird places and crevices. Without a full search, who knows what the guy next to you smuggled into the plane between his butt cheeks?
I believe these guys are just doing their job, and it is getting blown out of proportion on this thread.

VvV

So you believe that anything is reasonable to be safe.
Lets continue that logic.
You may no longer travel without papers.
You may be stopped while driving, questioned and detained without cause at any time.
Your house may be searched at any time without warrant or cause.
Of course the government will need to keep track of you while you travel so you will be tattooed with a set of numbers.
All of your banking may be investigated without cause at any time.
Your friends and family may be interviewed and detained at any time.
Your children will be cavity searched.
etc...
Welcome to the fourth reich !

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by jfj123

 

demandprogress.org...

Thank you very much !
I just signed it, forwarded it to a bunch of friends and put it on my facebook page !
STARRED !