Religion Needs to Die, Long Live Realisation!

reply to post by Michael Cecil

Please don't assume, as my definition of faith may differ from what you think it is. There can be no doubt that this world needs more faith, not less (ie: more hope and optimism, instead of apathy and cynicism).

Also, apathy, and belief in the insignificance of the human being, is just as destructive as a misguided or misconcieved faith.

P.S. I was also referring to spiritual understanding as a type of "gnosis". Just don't ASSUME, please and thank you.

Open mindedness is also crucial for mutual understanding and tolerance. The person who scares me the most in this world, is the guy who believes he already knows it all, but lacks the felt experience of an abiding faith in things unseen and the supremecy of the love of God as a power greater than self.

Faith is not the problem, it's misunderstanding, and the arrogance of a moral or intellectual supremecy.

Faith is a neccessity, since we cannot understand God or the Godhead in full.

But I realize what you're saying, that "faith" can take the place of knowlegde and awareness, as an easy way of avoiding hard work, and an often difficult balancing act when it comes to a clear eyed, and minded, evaluative discernment. But that's not real faith in my view, just some sort of superstition or plain ignorance pretending to be in possession of "the truth".

What I was referring to is a faith..

which brings greater understanding of our true place in God's creation, since the spirit of infinite intelligence is informative.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

Please don't assume, as my definition of faith may differ from what you think it is.

It makes no difference what your definition is. None at all.

Faith is thought. It is an action performed by a 'thinker'.

That 'thinker' is one step removed from reality and the knowledge of reality.

That 'thinker' takes someone else's word for something, but has no direct Knowledge.

There can be no doubt that this world needs more faith, not less (ie: more hope and optimism, instead of apathy and cynicism).

Who says there can be no doubt?

I say not only that there can be doubt, but that it is precisely wrong.

Can there be any doubt about what I say?

Of course there can.

Faith is not the problem, it's misunderstanding, and the arrogance of a moral or intellectual supremecy.

Yes. Faith is the problem. According to the prophet Hosea: "My people perish for lack of KNOWLEDGE." Not lack of faith; lack of KNOWLEDGE. Can it be any clearer than that?

Faith is a neccessity, since we cannot understand God or the Godhead in full.

I am not talking about understanding God "in full". I am saying that there is, for example, a "Vision of Knowledge" and other Knowledge that is Revealed directly through Revelation. And, when you experience that Knowledge directly, rather than merely have faith it it, that results in the resolution of conflict.

There is another Prophecy about Knowledge; something about "The Knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth like water covers the seas", or something like that. Once again, it mentions "KNOWLEDGE" of the Lord rather than FAITH in the Lord. Jeremiah also refers to this as being "written on the heart" in Chapter 30, as I recall. He does not use the term "written on the mind"--which is where faith is written; but, rather, "written on the heart"--which is where Knowledge is written.

Now, maybe these Revelations are unpleasant to you; but the shift of Paul from the importance of Knowledge to the importance of faith became the basis for the extermination of the Albigensians, other "heretics" and Jews who did not believe the lies of Christian theology.

Mi cha el

reply to post by Michael Cecil


I'm with you, up to the point about the "lies of Christian theology" part, what are those? I'm open minded. I see what you're saying, about the blindness of faith and the vision of knowledge as felt experience (in the heart) or gnosis.

So far so good. But what are these lies you refer to? Go on.. I'm all ears.

Edit: Paul wasn't perfect, but he surely tried his best.

And there is one lie I can think of, and that is the idea that Jesus Christ must be accepted as a pre-condition, or that it's an exclusive point of demarcation, when in truth it's an all inclusive proposition and invitation, for investigation and exploration ie: for more knowledge about the heart of God, as it's intended to reside in us ever more fully. In other words, for it to be Loving, it must be an open invitation, which, if it is to be recieved for what it really is and signifies, must be FREELY offered and, therefore, freely recieved and then integrated (grokked) by one form of knowing and then another, unto an ever more complete gnosis (knowledge of), although the mystery of it, is deep, perhaps unfathomably so, and therefore worth revisiting time and time again for further inquiry and grokking..

Re: Faith - was't Abraham's ah..merit, not accounted to him in accordance with his faith in something unseen and by all reasonableness, impossible? And from that perspective, might faith not equate to Trust in God ie: who fulfills promises with integrity (keeps his word)?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan I'm with you, up to the point about the "lies of Christian theology" part, what are those? I'm open minded. I see what you're saying, about the blindness of faith and the vision of knowledge as felt experience (in the heart) or gnosis.

Well, Sir, if you have been paying any attention at all--any attention at all--to the Prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Jesus and John, you should be able to figure out that, when those Prophecies are fulfilled, a very lot of people are going to "perish". And, according to Hosea, "My people perish for lack of Knowledge."

So what, specifically, is that Knowledge, the lack of which is going to cause all of these many, many people to perish?

That Knowledge has to do with the Doctrine of "resurrection" being a Doctrine of 'Rebirth' and the Revelation of the "resurrection" being the Revelation of the Memory of the Creation and the revelation of the memories of previous lives; in addition to other Knowledge received through the Vision of the "Son of man", the "Vision of Knowledge", the "Night Journey" of Mohammed, or the "Tree of Life" (Genesis 3:24).

All of this Knowledge has been specifically repudiated, contradicted and distorted by the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious 'authorities' as well as censored by the media.

This is why so many, many people are going to die with the fulfillment of these Prophecies.

Because of the lack of all of this Knowledge.

It's really not that difficult to comprehend.

Mi cha el

One thing worth considering, however and that is that Jesus was himself a Jewish rabbi, who, having the Christ-mind (obviously), came to recognize in himself and in his own person (perhaps having died to him-self) that he was the personification and fulfillment of the law and the prophets and the tree of life (the whole tree), as well as the temple, and the twin pillars in the temple, of a severe justice and a tender mercy ie: the whole kit and caboodle, and the stone which was rejected by the builders which became the keystone (central pillar). I also recognize a gateway in Christ Jesus, but an all inclusive one, at the point of simplicity at the far end of complexity, and I do mean this cosmologically, or in some sort of universal frame of reference. And it's all so very helpful, understood in the right way, for us, to show us where to go and what to do, and who and what to become, while including us, and therefore gifting us the gift of eternal life. All with absolute uncontional love and freedom, even liberation (from a faulty worldview).

I am well familiar with the idea of cataclysm, particularly that described in the book of Revelations, but, at the same time, not unlike the Bhagivad Gita, the whole frame of reference COULD be viewed allegorically in terms of an internal struggle of the human psyche, to find the way back to the garden of Eden, but to get there, and to the recognition that to God all people are alive, for example (past lives stored up), we cannot bypass the rendering of the tree of life and the twin pillars in the temple, and the gateway to the holy of holies, and the Magnum Opus or the Great Work of Ages, as of no value or as having no significance whatsoever, as if discarding that entire ancient historical framework, which goes all the way back through Egypt, and beyond, through the last cataclysm, unto the last Golden Age, when God walked hand in hand with man and women in the Gaden WITH them as their God ie: spirit of the universe ie: oneness as a felt present of being or gnosis.

There's a pattern already, a path, a model, it's all in place and it wasn't put there by the will and creative imagination of man alone, but was inspired co-creatively with the spirit of truth and wisdom.

I am sorry but I must follow Jesus before following you to where you seem to think you can go apart from him, which is absurd, if we understand Jesus as Godsent or of the Spirit and the Logos.

I"m a rebel, I admit it, so there's hope for me.

You are a rebel, I intuit, Michael, opposed to something within. You talk about the evils of the thinker and the self, seeing those things in me (NAM) and in the world, and you feel you've discovered the new gate of knowedge which leads to eternal life, yet you reject Jesus and his voice. How can this be? How can you not see it? It's there, and the voice and character is there also, reading between the lines of the gospels.

What, do you wish to invent a new religion and proclaim yourself the new Messiah?

I don't totally "get" where you're coming from Mi cha el?

To me you appear both arrogant and ignorant, just as I do you (takes one to know one?).

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude and harsh, I'm just asking you to re-examine, and to take another look at "the Jesus project" with an open mind, along with Paul's writings as to how Jesus represents the resolution to the problem of the paradox at the heart of the tree of the knowledge and good and evil and our feeding from that tree.

Investigation, with an open mind, that's all we Christians ask of people, but there's a mind in us all which does NOT want to "grok" of it most fully, for fear of death, when all the while, it's nothing but a transformation, but my oh my how that self-self or thinker-self (as you call it) rebels, even to the degree of denying it all together and heading in another direction to try to construct another gate and another way of entry..


Now does that make of me a "gatekeeper" who get's to thrill at having "secret wisdom" or "knowledge" that I alone can understand? No.

I am the doorman, with tickets extended every which way, to the party of all ages, and the door isn't me at all, thank God or we'd all be screwed!

It's ALL GOOD, all good news, there's no bad news in it at all, except for the way "the church" has conducted itself over the last 2000 years, but that's just the devil's twist on it, to get us turning away from it, to make of it, not attractive, but repulsive. So I am just a well dressed doorman, nothing more. I may even be among the worst among us, as a sinner (reformed).

Stepping aside then I simply convey the open door, the gateway, but if we're to go it is either through Christ or by me according to my knowledge of Him and faith in him and in his power as the white stone. You're rigfht that faith alone just doesn't cut it, but it can and does complete the circle in my experience, whereby God can do for us, what we cannot do for ourselves.

What a marvel! For all with the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan One thing worth considering, however and that is that Jesus...

Certainly, one of the most 'artful dodges' I have seen in quite some time.

I tell you about the Knowledge, the lack of which is going to result in many, many, many people losing their lives.

And, absolutely undeterred by such information--it is almost as if you do not care at all--you start talking about Jesus; as if, in the final analysis, that will make any difference at all.

Briefly, this is what I see:

Hundreds of thousands or millions of Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious 'authorities' motivated primarily if not exclusively by pride, greed and the lust for power teaching thoughts and theories which specifically contradict the Knowledge referred to by Hosea in the statement: "My people perish for lack of Knowledge."

Millions, tens of millions, and hundreds of millions of Jewish, Christian and Muslim religionists adopting political ideologies resulting in conflict and violence, warfare and genocide--and believing in theologies which are both the motivation and the 'justification' for such conflict, violence, warfare and genocide---walking catatonically and unquestioningly into the horrors of the coming "time of trouble" Prophesied by Daniel.

Your reply indicates the perspective of someone who, apparently, does not seriously question at all the doctrines vomited up by the "beast of the earth"/consciousness of the 'thinker'-Christian, Jewish and Muslim religious 'authorities'.

Mi cha el

To me, faith means not knowing, and just trusting. It is opposed to belief, because believing means you have to know to feel safe. If i have enough knowledge, it makes me feel more secure, is a belief held by many. All knowledge is stuff you have believed and stored away, to be retrieved for future reference. So knowledge is always old news. We approach life with assumptions, ideas and beliefs and they mess everything up.
Faith is meeting each moment empty handed, knowing all is well. There is no need for thought, life flows.

reply to post by WHOS READY


WHOS READY, you certainly picked a simple topic for this thread. LOL I'm glad that you're thinking outside the box. Some of your ideas I agree with. But I could write a book in response to your OP.

I suspect the reason why you didn't get more of a response to this thread is the immense complexity of the topic. Most people do NOT want to get bogged down in futile arguments about arcane aspects of the history of various religions, the nature of God and the origins of humankind.

First of all, I believe in God. God is both within and without. First-hand knowledge of the reality of God is accessible to man thru meditation. God is both immanent in Its creation and transcendant. It is beyond the duality of Its creation, so It is neither male or female, but encompasses the nature of both.

Religions tend to distort this pristine Truth, because of language. God or one's experience of God is ineffable -- there are NOT words that can adequately describe God. Knowledge of God cannot be FULLY tranmitted thru words. The nature of God is beyond the comprehension of the rational mind. Man is more than his rational mind.

Some religions are closer to the Truth than others. Islam was a fraud from its inception. The entire Qu'ran is the product of Muhammad. Muhammad was not only a mass murderer and pedophile, but a dictator. The Qu'ran served Muhammad. Islam was never a spiritual path. It's a totalitarian political system disguised as a religion. Muhammad made it against the law to criticize him (Muhammad) and his Qu'ran. In radical Islamic states, one can be put to death for criticizing Muhammad or his Qu'ran. In moderate Islamic countries, one is fined or imprisoned for criticizing Muhammad & his Qu'ran. In an open society where people are not afraid to speak their minds & hearts, Muhammad & his Qu'ran would be torn to pieces -- which is why it had to be prohibited. The Muslims always begin their take-over of a country by worming their way into the country's legal system.

Jesus was an authentic Essene spiritual teacher, but his teachings were hijacked by Roman emperors for their own political purposes: the Holy Roman Empire. The Vatican is enormously wealthy and powerful to this day and probably behind many behind-the-scenes machinations in the world.

Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion and much, much older than is believed by conventional historians. Amazing writings. India is the world's mother lode of religion and philosophy. Buddhism grew out of it.

I also respect China's Taoism.

Most of humankind's history has been lost. I also believe that Man was created by ETs -- a product of genetic engineering of an Earth hominid.

I could go on, but I need to do other things.

reply to post by Northwarden
God didn't invent religion.

Man did!.