God's Stance on Abortion

reply to post by riley


I see people have a choice of free will. If there is some form of sin against some kind of abortion then it will be a sin. Still people (men and women) have free will over their bodies and actions.

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So is a woman's free will is suspended while her womb is in use then? The bible certainly does not say that. Free will either applies to eveyone or it doesn't.

I didn't say a woman, or man for that matter, has no free will. We do, God created us in His image. What I did say is when we exercise our will against His sovereign will that's called "idolatry". That's making ourselves God, that's dethroning God and enthroning ourselves as God of our lives. That's elevating our will to a greater prominence in our life above His will. If it's His will to create life, we should never exercise our God-given free will to terminate it.

We are to be in accordance to His sovereign will at all times. Here is what God says about babies in the womb:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

This passage tells us that before God forms us in the womb He knows us. God is the one who directs all cell divisions like a maestro directs a symphony. God is the creator of all life, if God wants to terminate that life He is sovereign to do so, not us.

reply to post by Vicky32


It strikes me as strange that so many Christians are against abortion and claim religious reasons despite the fact there is no restriction against abortion in the Bible and the God of the Bible seems bloodthirsty, at least in the old testament.

I myself am against abortion with very few exceptions where its medically necessary or needed in case of rape or incest. But while I see a lot of people out there arguing against abortion for religious reasons I look at it scientifically. Genetically once sperm meets egg it forms a new human beings genetic code. So its human and its different from either of its parents so killing it in the womb, while I wouldn't call it murder, shouldn't be an option unless its truly necessary.

The God of the Old Testament is merciless. The only place I can think that Christians are getting the abortion thing is that they are extending Jesus teaching us to love each other to the fetus.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Are Christians the only theists who don't like the idea of terminating life in the womb? I hear what you're saying, but I was against abortion before I was born-again. I simply don't think it's a moral thing to do, and that idea of mine was only strengthened when I embraced Christ, not manifested by some passage in the Bible.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Many Christians I've talked to say that God is specifically against abortion and that the United States could soon be judged for killing the unborn. Some hold an almost old testament style fire and brimstone view as if we're going to go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah just for abortion. But when I ask them they can't point me to the specific scripture that says abortion is evil. So it seems to me that they are pushing their own morality on the book. I think this happens in a lot of religions not just Christianity, people interpret the morals of the text to fit their own situation and own beliefs. The was a study that showed that when you ask people about the opinions of God the same part of the brain lights up as when you ask them for their own opinions (I forget the name of the study).

I think there is also a blending of politics and religion that is dangerous primarily to the religion and its ideals. Many Christians listen to people like Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson as if what they have to say is Gospel. Many preachers are now politically active and openly endorse or condemn candidates in their sermons. I once heard a John Hagee sermon in which for twenty minutes he talked about Iran getting a nuke and using it, here's a guy who should be preaching about salvation and love trying to scare the living daylights out of his audience with a scenario that isn't religious or Biblical in any way shape or form.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Many Christians I've talked to say that God is specifically against abortion and that the United States could soon be judged for killing the unborn. Some hold an almost old testament style fire and brimstone view as if we're going to go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah just for abortion. But when I ask them they can't point me to the specific scripture that says abortion is evil.

I think if God doesn't soon judge America for it's sins He'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah. But on the other hand, we are currently under the covenant of grace with God, so perhaps He is holding judgment until the church dispensation is complete. One think is disturbingly true though, America is startling absent from the prophecies for the end of the age. But I digress..

I simply rely on the command to not murder for God's condemnation on abortion, that's right in the 10 Commandments. Listen to Bishop "Earthquake" Kelley's testimony of his ascent to heaven when he died on the operating table. He states when he went to heaven he saw two extremely large groups of children playing and asked what the groups were. the first group he was told was all the children who had died in the wars, famines, natural disasters, and from sicknesses, the other group he was told by God "These are children I gave to people on Earth and for whatever reason their parents sent them back to me."

Earthquake Kelly

(part 2 of the video series specifically)

I'm not here to evaluate it's truthfulness or not, it's just a testimony.

So it seems to me that they are pushing their own morality on the book. I think this happens in a lot of religions not just Christianity, people interpret the morals of the text to fit their own situation and own beliefs.

You can think that, but in the Hebrew it says "Thou shalt not murder". Then only debate after that is when does life begin? I can't speak for everyone else, but in my opinion based on other scriptures that state god is the one who forms us in our mother's womb that life begins at that point. From personal experience, i was crushed when an ex-girlfriend killed my unborn child, I didn't support it, nor did I pay for it. I'll never support her decision. but as David the Psalmist said:

"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." 2 Samuel 12:23

The was a study that showed that when you ask people about the opinions of God the same part of the brain lights up as when you ask them for their own opinions (I forget the name of the study).

I imagine that to be accurate, perhaps all opinions originate in the same area of the brain.

I think there is also a blending of politics and religion that is dangerous primarily to the religion and its ideals. Many Christians listen to people like Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson as if what they have to say is Gospel.

I like Pat Robertson for medical information, and Rush Limbaugh to learn news tidbits that I can't get on the liberal news media, however, I haven't heard Rush in a few years, the radio in my car is broken and since it's nearly 20 years old i haven't been inclined to purchase a new one for it. lol Kinda like putting lipstick on a pig ya know?

Many preachers are now politically active and openly endorse or condemn candidates in their sermons.

I have mixed feelings about this. I think a preacher should spend their time preaching the Word of God, however, i also think it's good for a preacher to inform his parsonage of the views of candidates that have views that are contrary to God's Word.

I once heard a John Hagee sermon in which for twenty minutes he talked about Iran getting a nuke and using it, here's a guy who should be preaching about salvation and love trying to scare the living daylights out of his audience with a scenario that isn't religious or Biblical in any way shape or form.

I don't agree, Ezekiel 38 and 39 speak specifically about "Persia" and the coming war of Gog Magog, every single country prophesied for that war has been aligned against Israel for years except one, Turkey (Togarmah), now just recently, Turkey is joining those countries against Israel. The situation in Iran has an extreme probability of leading to Gog Magog war of Ezekiel 38 & 39. Specifically, one that Ezekiel points out will unleash the use of nuclear weapons.

Those of us with an ear towards Bible prophecy are watching the Iran situation with extreme interest and diligence because of Ezekiel 38 & 39.

Wow, we've completely hijacked the topic of this thread. I'd be more than welcome to continue further with this in U2U if you wish. But back to the abortion issue, just for the sake of humoring me, listen to Bishop Kelley's testimony of what Jesus told him about the group of children in heaven when he had his NDE.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Many Christians I've talked to say that God is specifically against abortion and that the United States could soon be judged for killing the unborn. Some hold an almost old testament style fire and brimstone view as if we're going to go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah just for abortion.

While I think that God would certainly decry abortion, not just for the indifference to innocent life, but for the emotional damage that it can also do, and for the fact that it could be pretty easily prevented by either living by his commandments or, at the very least, being responsible in one's licentious behaviour, this seems more like a "wishful thinking" perspective for staunch opponents. Throughout history there have been, and still are, countries that engage in abhorrent and morally repugnant behaviour that haven't been struck down from on high.

Second coming, judgement of the world, and so forth... that's one thing. Singling out America for this particular thing seems quite another. Name me one nation (of consequence) that uniformly lives and rules by Christ's commandments, and I'll say that there might be something to judge against.

I think there is also a blending of politics and religion that is dangerous primarily to the religion and its ideals.

Amen, brother! (Bet you never thought you'd hear that, lol) Religious folks who want to mingle Church and State fail to see the true danger in this. I am vehemently in favour of the separation, and I do so out of concern for my faith. I believe what I believe, and I don't need Rush Limbaugh, the President, or the law of the United States to tell me what to believe.

When you hear about Christians burning people at the stake, witches and pagans come to mind as the victims, but consider the Anabaptists, who were persecuted horribly by Catholics, Protestants and the countries that those churches supported. What was the Anabaptist's (who were, by all rights, Christians) crime? Saying that infant baptism wasn't a valid baptism.

Seemingly innocuous, but in the 1500s, in a Europe that had no line between Church and State, that belief was sufficient to have you burned to death. And it wasn't the church doing the burning, but the local constabulary, at the church's bidding, of course (a bit like the Romans doing the bidding of the church in putting Christ to death, I suppose.)

"Thou shall not murder"

Abortion is murder

You can debate it until the sun comes down but if it was right then there would be no need for debate..

Its wrong.

Evil.

No justification to kill, yes kill a CHILD who had no say in his/her conception.


To the women who say "its my body" then you should have taken precautions, and in the case of rape, then the child did not rape you but is the good part of you and a blessing out of evil.

When you have a human growing inside of you your body is NOT your own until the child is born.

Frankly I find it totally disgusting that in this modern world that the most dangerous place for a kid is its own mothers womb, in MOST cases because she couldn't keep her legs closed to a feckless wanker of a guy..

Abortion is not a form of contraception and for those who try to justify this murder in terms of legalistic dictionary terms for the stages of a babies growth?

Then good luck when you use that arguement before God..

Genesis 9:5
And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

And since we're on the topic of abortion...

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Speaking as a christian.. what about a woman's right to free will? Everyone is suppose to be entitled to free will according to the bible correct? Isn't taking a woman's choice of abortion away depriving her of god's gift of free will? Wouldn't forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy against her will therefore be a statement against the concept of free will and therfore contrary to god's wishes?

The time for a woman to exercise her free will is before she gets pregnant! She can choose whether or not to have sex at all, or whether or not to have unprotected sex. But once she's pregnant, then the wills of other people have claims equal to hers - the father, her parents, his parents, the baby him/herself.
Vicky

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Speaking as a christian.. what about a woman's right to free will? Everyone is suppose to be entitled to free will according to the bible correct? Isn't taking a woman's choice of abortion away depriving her of god's gift of free will? Wouldn't forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy against her will therefore be a statement against the concept of free will and therfore contrary to god's wishes?

The time for a woman to exercise her free will is before she gets pregnant! She can choose whether or not to have sex at all, or whether or not to have unprotected sex. But once she's pregnant, then the wills of other people have claims equal to hers - the father, her parents, his parents, the baby him/herself.
Vicky

So yes you are indeed saying pregnant women are not entitled to free will. :shk:

Pregnancy is not always a matter of free will. Some are caused by force so are pregnant rape victims not entitled to free will either..? Even if she chooses to have sex and becomes pregnant; she does not stop being a person. Your deciding that she is no longer entitled to free will is elevating yourself above god and what the bible says. Perhaps you should post your ammendments to the garden of eden story so it fits your ideals.

Someone mentioned "thou shalt not murder" but the bible puts a monetary price on miscarriage so I see no reason to assume that it counts as murder according to the bible as it's viewed as a finacial asset that can be financially compensated (males being worth more).

An eye for an eye: If someone caused a miscarriage they would be fined NOT not stoned to death so they did not count it as someone being killed.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion on abortion, my issue is with some christians thinking it would be morally okay to lock a woman up for nine months to prevent her having an abortion. Some are indeed okay with a pregnant woman having that god given gift of free will taken away.

You can try call that morality but it is your own brand not that of Christ.

reply to post by riley


ARE

YOU

KIDDING

ME???

You show me ONE teaching from Jesus Christ that justifies or allows a woman or a man to exercise their free will to end someone's life.

A person is NOT a Christian who goes to church every Sunday, a person is not a Christian simply by paying their tithes. A person is defined as a Christian by their desire to honor GOD's will.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." ~ Jesus Christ

I'm sorry, but either you're a Liberal/Secular Progressive or you have had an abortion and instead of seeking repentance you're attempting to justify the guilt you have in your conscience. You have zero Biblical support for your position. I suggest you repent before the Lord and seek His forgiveness.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by riley

 

ARE

YOU

KIDDING

ME???

You show me ONE teaching from Jesus Christ that justifies or allows a woman or a man to exercise their free will to end someone's life.

No

I'M

NOT

KIDDING

YOU!!

That "someone" you speak of is valued by a sum of money according to the bible.. and Jesus NEVER mentions pregnant women having abortions.

A person is NOT a Christian who goes to church every Sunday, a person is not a Christian simply by paying their tithes. A person is defined as a Christian by their desire to honor GOD's will.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." ~ Jesus Christ

Sorry if I do not consider YOUR word his will.

I'm sorry, but either you're a Liberal/Secular Progressive or you have had an abortion and instead of seeking repentance you're attempting to justify the guilt you have in your conscience. You have zero Biblical support for your position. I suggest you repent before the Lord and seek His forgiveness.

I beg your pardon? The OP asks where the bible stands on abortion and I offered a point of view because that is what happens in a religious discussion. Instead of offering a decent counter argument you went on a very personal attack and accused me of having an abortion which is extremily inappropriate and rude. I'm honestly suprised you did not accuse me of being raped. I suggest you keep your judgements to yourself and not presume you can speak on "His" behalf. My whole argument is based on the concept of free will as it IS a core belief of christianity. I am sorry if that concept offends you so much.

To continue what I said - no, in the case of the pregnant woman - her rights are not absolute. She has other people tro consider.
An accidental miscarriage is one thing, but deliberately ending a pregnancy is another.
If a woman is raped, it's understandable that she would want to get rid of the pregnancy, but pregnancy following rape is much rarer than claimed - and 9 months of a life isn't much to give up, for the sake of her future mental and physical health, not to mention the life of the child.
Induced abortion is extremely bad for tne mother!
Vicky

reply to post by riley

I beg your pardon? The OP asks where the bible stands on abortion and I offered a point of view because that is what happens in a religious discussion. Instead of offering a decent counter argument you went on a very personal attack and accused me of having an abortion which is extremily inappropriate and rude. I'm honestly suprised you did not accuse me of being raped. I suggest you keep your judgements to yourself and not presume you can speak on "His" behalf. My whole argument is based on the concept of free will as it IS a core belief of christianity. I am sorry if that concept offends you so much.

Completely wrong. What "offended" me so much was your "claim" to be a Christian, yet your stubborn insistence to have your will magnified above God's will. Yes, God did give us free will, but God never gave us that free will to murder unborn children as a matter of convenience.

That's absurdly disgusting. And I still stand by my observation, Either you're a Liberal/Secular Progressive, or you've had an abortion and have a guilty conscience. Do you deny both of these assumptions? Abortion is the modern day worship of Moloch. It's the exact same spirit at work. Abortion is Moloch worship. Here is a verse for you to see how God values human life, I'm sure you won't care though:

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." Matthew 10:29-31

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

God forms us in the womb, He doesn't do that so a mother can excessive her free will to murder her son or daughter before their first breath of fresh air.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


You have demanded to know TWICE now.. I am not going to confirm nor deny your accusations because it is offtopic and a personal attack, none of your business and you are way out of line asking such questions. I am not the topic of the thread.

Have you ever masturbated and wasted sperm that should have been used to create life? Masturbation according to the bible is a sin.. now we can objectively discuss on what grounds it is considered sinful but me actually asking you if YOU SPECIFICALLY have spilt seed is inappropriate. Just like asking someone if they have had an abortion is inappropriate.

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You have demanded to know TWICE now.. I am not going to confirm nor deny your accusations because it is offtopic and a personal attack, none of your business and you are way out of line asking such questions. I am not the topic of the thread.

Have you ever masturbated and wasted sperm that should have been used to create life? Masturbation according to the bible is a sin.. now we can objectively discuss on what grounds it is considered sinful but me actually asking you if YOU SPECIFICALLY have spilt seed is inappropriate. Just like asking someone if they have had an abortion is inappropriate.

edit on 3-12-2010 by riley because: (no reason given)

I didn't demand to know the first time, nor did I the second time. I asked only the 2nd time I brought it up. I already have it narrowed down to one of the two. That's the only reasons you'd be trying to justify abortion.

"Confess faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

I have no problem admitting my sins to you, yes I have masturbated numerous times. And sought forgiveness through repentance for doing so. Didn't expect that now did you? But perhaps in your version of Christianity I was just exercising my God-given free will??

The topic of this thread is about God's view of abortion. The case is closed with the 6th Commandment. If you stubbornly want to magnify your God-given free will to go against His word, that's idolatry. You've used a logical fallacy to answer the OP of this thread. It's called a "red herring" fallacy. Yes, God did create us in his image, that includes free will. But where you err massively is then to claim that we can exercise that free-will for the murder of an unborn child.

That's morally repugnant. You need to repent.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I didn't demand to know the first time, nor did I the second time.

Actually you did.. you have been quite adament that I answer your (very personal) questions.

I asked only the 2nd time I brought it up. I already have it narrowed down to one of the two. That's the only reasons you'd be trying to justify abortion.

There are many reasons that account for my political beliefs. You've narrowed it down to two based on your own personal beliefs which seem narrow enough already. You have decided to make the topic about me and have tried to make me accountable to YOUR religious beliefs. You also told me to confess to your god as though you were electing yourself my moral superior which is also very rude.

You mention there can only be two reasons why someone would justify abortion when I have ALREADY given you a third reason which is FREE WILL. No where in the bible does it say pregnant women are not entitled to free will. Asking me if I have had an abortion does not void the free will argument.. it only serves to try derail the actual topic.

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reply to post by riley

You mention there can only be two reasons why someone would justify abortion when I have ALREADY given you a third reason which is FREE WILL. No where in the bible does it say pregnant women are not entitled to free will. Asking me if I have had an abortion does not void the free will argument.. it only serves to try derail the actual topic.

Wow, I'm extremely surprised I have to explain it now a 4th time...

I have NEVER claimed a man, woman, child et cetra do not have free will.

WE ALL HAVE A GOD-GIVEN FREE WILL.

Are we clear yet? Let me state it a 5th time. Pregnant women DO HAVE FREE WILL.

Clear yet on my position?

What I have said after that, is based upon scripture, when a person elevates/magnifies/places in higher authority, THEIR FREE WILL above God's sovereign commandments (God's will), then it immediately becomes idolatry and sin.

Abortion violates the 6th Commandment (thou shalt not murder).