God's Stance on Abortion

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes but does that include the books that were thrown out of the scriptures centuries after Paul wrote that all scripture is God-breathed? You see that's the issue with the verse, it doesn't specify what scripture is and isn't God breathed, it claims that ALL scripture is. What does that mean? All Hebrew scripture? All written in Greek? All scripture ever written down by any religion anywhere? Also, is Paul referring to the Gospels which were all written AFTER his epistles?

Not if it was His plan before creation to redeem mankind through His Son to glorify Him. Which is what happened.

That's probably the worst plan I could possibly think of. So rather than forgive Adam and Eve and save all humanity he decides its a better idea to allow most people to languish in sin and then, several thousand years later, impregnate a virgin with his son who is also him to die brutally at the hands of the Romans? Then you have to accept his son in order to get into Heaven which leaves the majority of humanity burning in Hell... So God scraps the plan that will likely end in 100% of people getting into Heaven to go with the one that ends with a tiny fraction getting into Heaven. Are you sure this guy's Omniscient, because he sounds pretty stupid.

It's not "revenge", it's "justice".

No. Justice is when you punish those who are to blame.

Since Hitler didn't create the life he has no authority to take it.

I've been over this before. Creating life does not give you the right to destroy it. If a woman gives birth to a baby and then kills that baby she's still done something wrong. Also, even if God has the authority to take life it doesn't mean that he should be able to do so without good cause or reason and certainly not if he is truly merciful.

God is meant to be All Powerful, you and those that think like you seem to think this gives him carte blanch to do whatever he pleases including unspeakable evil. Might doesn't make right.

You're right though, the example wasn't a fair one, God should be held to a higher standard than Hitler, if Hitler commits mass murder its bad, but when God does it its even worse. Especially when said God then pretends to be righteous. The majority of human beings are more moral than the God of the Old Testament and if you doubt me let me ask you a question: How many Egyptian children have you killed?

I let God be God, it's not my place to judge Him.

Your reasoning here is fallacious. The Bible is not God. I'm not asking you, or anyone, to question God, merely what the Bible has to say about God. The end game is NOT to get you to reject your deity but to get you to reject the story for its negative depiction of your deity.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


You won't shake him, though. I've yet to find a contradiction in the bible, and NOTurTypical seems to know his stuff. If God wanted a race wiped out, then they posed a direct threat to Israel. Maybe one that isn't so obvious like the people before the flood... God could find only one guy & his family that were faithful to him. What happens when his family grows up and marries other people and then their beliefs get mixed in... etc. So, the flood happened. Is He just in destroying the rest of the human race? Sure is. God has been just in doing that since sin seperated us from Him. Young and old alike. Thankfully we have Jesus to bridge the gap. It's as simple as that and you can read it yourself.

Titen_Sxull


Watch this video series by Chuck Missler. (And the one I presented earlier on the Heptadic Structure of the Bible)

But if you don't understand Genesis 6, most of the OT will not make sense.

Missler ~ Stem Cells and the Nephillim (1 of 6)

Missler ~ Return of the Nephilim (1 of 12)

I'll continue our discussion, but there needs to be a foundation laid between us. It's the understanding of Genesis 6.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I've heard the story of the Nephilim before and even read the book of Enoch when I was a Christian. In fact it was stuff like Enoch that led me to wonder if the Bible WAS truly the Word of God or if man had messed it up by tossing out books that belonged in. Even if the Nephilim existed it wouldn't excuse slaughtering children, even if they were Nephilim children. Plus the stories in the Bible where God kills children don't specify that they were descendants of any Nephilim AND if indeed the Flood killed the Nephilim off I fail to see how any could remain.

So while the Nephilim might make a good reason for the FLOOD it wouldn't work after the Flood, like when God sends the Israelites out to smite the Amalekites, or they are instructed to kill every living thing in Jericho.

reply to post by RapturedNotBeamed

God has been just in doing that since sin seperated us from Him.

Justice is when you punish the guilty. It is NEVER just to kill innocent children and so the best NOT could do was defend baby killing by claiming those babies were all born sinners.

Also, if God was truly merciful, all loving and all powerful he could have found a way to redeem mankind without ever having to shed a single drop of blood. If he is All Knowing than he had almost infinite options. Rather than Flood the world and kill everything he could have sent Jesus at that time. Rather than send the Israelites out to crush the Amalekites down to the last infant he could have made peace with them and forgiven them the way he did Nineveh. Forgiveness should be his first and foremost option, not slaughter. The Old Testament God is in direct contradiction with his own character trait of being merciful when he decides to kill children.

NOT can type all he wants but he has already lost because he has given up the moral high ground in order to defend the behavior of a mass murderer. No human being has ever sinned as much as the God of the Bible and yet somewhere in the twisted minds of fundamentalists they think he is Holy.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


If you refuse to watch, that's fine, no worries here.

Any other member who looks at the thread is welcome to know what really happened in Genesis 6.

That's the beauty of the internet.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I disagree entirely, and I think you've been debunked but just refuse to believe it. I've been researching Noturtypical's links and subsequent teachings by Chuck Missler and other guys he's associated with on his website for the past 7hrs, pretty much non-stop. I've gotten 0 work done today and I'm fascinated by it on a level I can't even put to words. So far, I've found no reason to think that there's anything wrong with what he teaches, nor what Not's been saying throughout this thread. In the end of the argument, you'll believe whatever you want to believe.. but in the real end, you won't have a leg to stand on. I don't care if you don't post about it here, but I urge you to consider looking into it more in your private research and do so with an open heart. It really is amazing on this side of the fence.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Amalekites were Nephilim. That's the precise reason God wanted every last one killed. They were half-breed demi-gods. Satan spent 400 years spreading his seed "seed of the serpent", in the entire area of Mt. Moriah when the Jews were captive in Egypt.

Like I've said, unless you understand what satan tried to do in Genesis 6 you'll never understand the OT.


Amalekites

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The Old Testament never claims the Amalekites were Nephilim and mentions the reason that they are to be destroyed as this:

This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.

So

1) This has nothing to do with Nephilim and they aren't mentioned in any of the verses about Amalekites.

2) Even if the Nephilim even existed they were all killed in the Flood. To claim otherwise is to claim that God's plan to cleanse the Earth was an utter failure.

and

3) Even if they were Nephilim it does not mean they deserved to be brutally slaughtered. God could have simply decided to redeem them, turn them to his side and against Satan, to claim otherwise is to claim that God is not All Powerful. An All Powerful and loving God would never have to resort to bloodshed.

You can't defend a God who violates his own morals and murders people left and right, such a being is not worthy of allegiance or faith and, luckily, there is no evidence to support the existence of this genocidal murderer of a deity. Rather than seek out a true or living God you take refuge in legend and myths about a God who kills children and plans on damning the majority of humanity to a lake of hellfire. That's the entire point of this thread, God does not shy away from bloodshed, even kills kids, abortion ALSO kills kids. At least most abortions take place before the fetus can feel pain, the Egyptian children who were subjected to the "justice" of your God hardly had that luxury.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull


The Old Testament never claims the Amalekites were Nephilim and mentions the reason that they are to be destroyed as this:

The Bible states they were "giants", the Greek for this term used was "gigantes", which more accurately means "Earth-born". And is also synonymous with Nephilim from Genesis 6. Secondly, God gave the Amalekites 300 years to repent, they refused generation after generation.

1) This has nothing to do with Nephilim and they aren't mentioned in any of the verses about Amalekites.

Wrong, they are called "giants", synonymous with Nephilim from chapter 6 of Genesis.

Even if the Nephilim even existed they were all killed in the Flood. To claim otherwise is to claim that God's plan to cleanse the Earth was an utter failure.

Yes they existed, we have stories from every culture on Earth about demi-gods, native Americans were terrified of the people with 6 fingers and toes and we have numerous skeletons of these giants. Secondly, if you read Numbers chapter 13 you'll notice there are Nephilim in the land again when Joshua is taking the Hebrews into the Promised Land:

"And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." Numbers 13:33

3) Even if they were Nephilim it does not mean they deserved to be brutally slaughtered. God could have simply decided to redeem them, turn them to his side and against Satan, to claim otherwise is to claim that God is not All Powerful. An All Powerful and loving God would never have to resort to bloodshed.

They cannot be redeemed, they are the seed of the serpent, the spirits of the Nephillim are the demons that torment us today, they are the "unclean spirits". God IS all powerful, but He doesn't force anyone to repent.

You can't defend a God who violates his own morals and murders people left and right, such a being is not worthy of allegiance or faith and, luckily, there is no evidence to support the existence of this genocidal murderer of a deity.

You're right, I cannot defend that god. He doesn't exist. You love to cherry-pick the attributes and the revealed nature of God Almighty to justify your own rebellion and unbelief.

Rather than seek out a true or living God you take refuge in legend and myths about a God who kills children and plans on damning the majority of humanity to a lake of hellfire.

God sends NO ONE to Hell, people choose to go there on their own accords. God sends prophets, His Word, puts road-block after road-block on the highway to Hell, then even sends His own Son to pay the ultimate penalty for sin and just asks people to trust in that, freely. God sends no one to Hell, everyone who will spend their eternity there rejects the free gift of heaven.

That's the entire point of this thread, God does not shy away from bloodshed, even kills kids,

That may be true from man's perspective, but you still refuse to see it from God's perspective. Any child lost before that child reaches the age of accountability is not lost in Hell, but is in heaven. Do you ever consider that god is His omniscience takes children who he knows will grow up in unbelief? It mystifies you that God could send anyone to Hell, to me I'm mystified that He would let anyone into heaven! We all are rebellious, we all want nothing to do with him by nature, and we all deserve to be separated from Him for eternity.

I don't invite my worst enemies to live at my house forever, do you??

abortion ALSO kills kids.

We agree.

At least most abortions take place before the fetus can feel pain,

Says who?

the Egyptian children who were subjected to the "justice" of your God hardly had that luxury.

Their deaths were justice for the Hebrew babies that were thrown to the crocodiles in the Nile river a generation earlier.

It's God's principle of reaping what you sow.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Simply because they were claimed to be giant doesn't mean they deserved death. Size does not mean they were evil or immoral. Even if they were evil it seems a far better idea for a merciful God to find a way to turn them from their evil path and redeem them.

Secondly, God gave the Amalekites 300 years to repent, they refused generation after generation.

Care to back that up with even a shred of scriptural evidence?

Yes they existed, we have stories from every culture on Earth about demi-gods

Stories do not constitute evidence. We also have stories about Zeus, dragons, Unicorns, spirits of various sorts, etc etc etc. Many of these stories crossed cultural boundaries and spread "all over the world". Also there is an obscenely easy explanation for giants, its called gigantism and for centuries it was very poorly understood. Those affected by it were often considered outcasts or monsters. As I said, giant does not equal evil.

There is a lack of archeological and scientific evidence in support of the Nephilim.

They cannot be redeemed

For an all powerful God all things are possible, so your statement is utterly absurd.

You're right, I cannot defend that god. He doesn't exist.

Sounds like you need to re-read your Bible. Cherry pick?

Hitler may have had some nice qualities, that doesn't make him a nice guy. A handful of moments in which the Biblical God decides to show restraint would not erase genocide and unspeakable evil. However this can easily be chocked up to the fact that the Bible has many many authors who all saw God differently, some saw him as a vengeful and angry God and others as a more gentle and merciful one. I personally much prefer the New Testament, Jesus is far preferable to the genocidal maniac of the Old Testament who condones slavery and murders children.

God sends NO ONE to Hell, people choose to go there on their own accords

Wrong.

Did God create Hell? Does God ultimately judge all mankind? You might want to reread your Bible, God is the one who judges mankind, people do not judge themselves.

Also, such a choice is only fair if every human being is aware of and fully accepts Hell's existence. Offering such a choice without first demonstrating the existence of Hell is absurd. Expecting people to believe in something without offering any evidence that it exists, doesn't sound like something a good God would do.

Here's how this scenario plays out:

God creates Hell.

God then must save human beings from a Hell of his own making.

Sorry but it doesn't make sense especially when God maintains the ability to just destroy Hell or only send those there that are truly and deeply evil. Instead, according to Revelation, people will be burned in agony for eternity for sins as simple as lying. Also, why would a good God give us free will and then demand, under penalty of eternal torment, that we only use that free will as he sees fit? That's essentially stripping us of our free will in order to avoid a punishment he could simply unmake if he wanted to.

Any child lost before that child reaches the age of accountability is not lost in Hell, but is in heaven.

Worst, excuse, ever. Can you imagine if a child murderer tried this defense in a court of law. "Well your honor, its okay I stabbed that seven year old because she's in heaven."... Yeah, that would go over REAL well with a judge

We all are rebellious, we all want nothing to do with him by nature, and we all deserve to be separated from Him for eternity.

If we are rebellious by nature then it is GOD'S fault. After all he is the one who made our nature. Why would he offer us free will and then demand that we only use it as he sees fit? Also in order to rebel against something it would have to be present as an actual influence. When was the last time God was around to lay down the rules and help walk us through obedience? Look around the world, if there is a God he is entirely ABSENT. And to make matters worse the book we have that you claim is from this God gives us immoral and horrible rules to live by. Like stoning a woman to death for not being a virgin. Killing witches and people who work on the Sabbath. Keeping slaves. Plucking our eyes out if they cause us to sin, etc, etc, etc. These are NOT the rules of a good God, these are the primitive scribbles of man being paraded as such. These are words being placed in the mouth of God by mortals.

Their deaths were justice for the Hebrew babies that were thrown to the crocodiles in the Nile river a generation earlier.

I thought I explained this quite clearly:

Justice is when you punish those who are to blame. Those who are to blame being the Egyptian adults who carried out Pharaoh's command, and, of course, Pharaoh himself. If Yahweh had merely killed Pharaoh we wouldn't be having this discussion because I wouldn't have seen anything wrong with it.

It's God's principle of reaping what you sow.

Again you pervert a noble idea. Those first born did not SOW anything for them to REAP. If God wants the Egyptian adults to reap what they've sown he should visit death upon THEM, not the children.

I'm getting the feeling this will go on and on and on. No matter what I present you're hell-bent (pardon the pun) on rejecting it. It's interesting you keep telling me to re-read my Bible, but when I point out to you what the Bible states you immediately reject it. I let God be God, He is the Creator, I'm just a part of His creation. I have no right to pass judgments on His plans, judgments, or rules. I just submit to His sovereignty and obey, and thank Him for His blessings on top of blessings and the changed life He promised me.

We could go round and round for the next 20 pages of this thread, and it won't solve anything. I'm born again, you're not. No one has ever been saved because they lost an argument. I won't stop you from being disgusted with God, that's your right. But on the flip side, I am pleased with the other posters who have been open to the truth. You may never wish to re-evaluate your position, that's fine. But don't expect for a second someone who has experienced God and been born of His Holy Spirit to reject it. It's impossible to "unbirth" oneself, and I thank the Lord for that.

As far at the OP goes, we are not God. We have no authority to take life because we didn't create it. Ultimately God takes EVERYONE's life. And like I said previously, I'm not that concerned with having all my questions answered right now like a spoiled kid, I have an eternity to ask and learn all the minute details of the whys and hows my heart ever desired.

Anything else you'd like me to address before I agree to disagree with you?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Anything else you'd like me to address before I agree to disagree with you?

Just one thing, please try to not to equate the Bible with God. Simply because a book claims to be the Word of God does not make it so. The Bible was written by men and when I criticize it I attack it alone (and its depiction of your God, surely a depiction is not the God itself) and not your God.

And I agree that there are some in this thread who answered the question well, particularly adjensen.

Thanks for the conversation, it was interesting even if more or less fruitless

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


The Heptadic Structures found in the Bible prove it could not have been made by a SINGLE man...

let alone 44.

Still haven't researched that discovery yet have you??

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

God sends NO ONE to Hell, people choose to go there on their own accords

Wrong.

Did God create Hell? Does God ultimately judge all mankind? You might want to reread your Bible, God is the one who judges mankind, people do not judge themselves.

Here's my perspective on this. Calvinists will agree with you -- God chooses some for salvation, some for damnation, and that's the end of that. Under that belief system, God does, indeed, "send people to hell."

However, most Christians, including myself, are not Calvinists, and for us, NOTurTypical's statement is correct. God does not send anyone there, people choose to go there.

How? You're correct, God created hell. It was created to house the fallen angels, and represents a place in the heavenly realm (whatever that turns out to be) where one may be separated from God. That's what the angels wanted, that's what the angels got.

Now, I come along (in my mortal existence) and say "I don't need you God, I don't believe you exist, and I can manage on my own, thank you very much." I might even become evangelical and work against him, but the important thing is that I've told him that I want no part of him.

Suddenly, I'm hit by a bus (don't worry, my family will sue the city and collect big bucks) and find myself before God. There are some who say God takes pity on me, and since I wasn't out and out evil, he gives me a stern talking to, I say I'm sorry, and all is well. These, however, are the minority view.

The rest of us, who view God as just, if nothing else, see that God will grant me true justice by giving me what I have asked for -- existence without him. Unfortunately, there's only one place in the afterlife where this is possible, and that's where I will find myself.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

The Heptadic Structures found in the Bible prove it could not have been made by a SINGLE man...

I watched your video, NOTurTypical, and found it interesting. I'm reasonably well versed in maths and statistics, so can't help but feel that I'm missing something in there, but he makes a good case for what is, effectively, a Check Digit within the New Testament.

Chuck Missler offered some really good arguments that the people destroyed in the OT we discussed here were genetically altered and no longer human. The bible does make it clear that Nephilim are not human, but there certainly is a mystery around who they were or whether they were evil. I think Missler could very well be on to something, and to me it is completely feasible. If he is right, then they were a people created for the sole purpose of uprooting God's plan.. in which case how could you not expect Him to stamp them out? However, they did survive somewhat and to my knowledge that gene pool continued to mix in with the rest. Read: Holy crap that's a big guy - www.youtube.com...

Is he a decendant of the Nephilim? I'd like to find out! Does this mean we should go out and kill him? No. (Good luck!) Anyways that conflict was completed and now we're living in the aftermath. For better or worse. For all we know, Antichrist might rise out of that gene pool, or just about anything.

reply to post by RapturedNotBeamed


I haven't posted yet, a while back a user who was a member explained to me the Nephlim were the Hebrews of the past. Basically they were God's chosen people and they didn't obey God correctly. He sent me a video series which explained in Hebrew where he was coming from.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


That seems unlikely to me as the bible defines them as being different from the human race:

Genesis 6 - NLT
When the human population began to grow rapidly on the earth, the sons of God saw the beautiful women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives…. In those days, and even afterward, giants lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with human women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes mentioned in legends of old.

Up until this point, there is no mention of the sons of God.. so that tells me that Adam was not one of them., and many researchers point out that the original word for 'sons of God' is only ever used to describe angels, iirc.

reply to post by RapturedNotBeamed


Well I can't find the video and the email I had from the user is gone.
I feel terrible now! ahh man!

Well, if you do find it I'd be interested in watching it. It would take a lot to convince me on the subject though.

I think my wife put it best when we were discussing the nephilim last night... she said "Maybe we're not meant to figure this one out. Maybe it's just going to be like the prophecies of Christ dying for us, in that it wasn't until later that God pointed out everywhere in scripture and was like 'Heh, see what I did there?'.. God told them in no uncertain terms what that situation was going to be like and yet when it came to pass the Jews rejected Him. And they knew scripture!"