FACTS about "Ground Zero" "Mosque"

reply to post by kiwifoot


Yeah you do pretty much come across as a bigot when you decide that the people who plan on including a place of prayer for muslims in a community center are the same people who were blamed for flying two planes into the twin towers. I mean, there is only over a billion muslims on the planet eh.

reply to post by kiwifoot


In regards to "PC brigade" the exact same thing can be said of those who think Muslims should be sensitive to the feelings of victims. It works both ways, really.

But we aren't dealing with perceptions here, were dealing with truths. I understand how people like you have the feelings you do. I don't necessarily dispute them. What I do dispute is people using falsities being presented to them to back up their opinions without checking the claims first. That is what this thread is about.

It's one thing to be against the mosque for whatever reason, it is another to use the lies being told to attempt to forcibly stop the project from moving forward because of people's "feelings" in a country where "rights" are what matters. People complaining of political correctness tend to note how it's not the feelings of people that matter, but the rights of those who may be hurting feelings that do. I find it interesting how the "pc" argument has completely flipped around for the sake of this particular argument.

Originally posted by Johnze
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

Yeah you do pretty much come across as a bigot when you decide that the people who plan on including a place of prayer for muslims in a community center are the same people who were blamed for flying two planes into the twin towers. I mean, there is only over a billion muslims on the planet eh.

I edited that BEFORE you posted mate, as I re-read it I realised how it sounded.


Why can't you get it. It is about RESPECT!!

Look it up in the dictionary mate. Out of RESPECT for the victims of MUSLIM FANATICS, it would be better to not build a MUSLIM centre close to the WTC site.

If it were Christians ZEALOTS that had done it in Riyadh, then building a Church close to the site would not show RESPECT either.

Try and get it, it doesn't matter to me what the religion is, colour of their skin, race, nationality, whatever, it is out of respect for the mostly NON-MUSLIM victims that I base my opinion.

Sheesh!

I gotta ask:

1. How long a time is it acceptable for a culturaly center with a mosque to be built in the vicinity of Ground Zero.

2. Until then, how far does it have to built from Ground Zero to be acceptable?

3. Who should have the right and authority to make these decisions?

Originally posted by kiwifoot





Look it up in the dictionary mate. Out of RESPECT for the victims of MUSLIM FANATICS, it would be better to not build a MUSLIM centre close to the WTC site.

Do you know how "PC" you sound right now?

Originally posted by kiwifoot

So because I chose to respect the victims I'm a bigot?

Over emotional, you aren't an American are you? Nor me, but trust me, if someone bombed the heart out of whatever city you're from, then less than a decade later a centre devoted to the religion of the bombers was planne3d, lets see how "over-emotional" you'd be!!

As a patriotic American I believe that it's DISRESPECTFUL to attempt to strip people of their Constitutional rights solely for sentimental reasons. Their legacy should be one of undying freedom, NOT revenge and intolerance. As a US military veteran I served to protect the very freedoms that you attempt to deny others, and it makes me sick.

The WTC attackers were terrorists, however to label all Muslims as terrorists based simply on shared theological beliefs is rude and irresponsible. Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic. Do you support tearing down all Christian churches surrounding the OKC bombing site because they share common religious beliefs as the bomber, or do we recognize extremist for what they are and work together as a community to honor, respect and prevent this type of tragedy from happening again?

Originally posted by kiwifoot
Nor me, but trust me, if someone bombed the heart out of whatever city you're from, then less than a decade later a centre devoted to the religion of the bombers was planne3d, lets see how "over-emotional" you'd be!!

As a New Yorker since the mid-1990s, I assure you that I am more offended by people like Sarah Palin claiming to know what's best for my city than I am by a Muslim congregation (which has met in the neighborhood of the WTC site for 27 years and which lost members in the towers on 9/11) trying to build a community center that will be open to the entire neighborhood in a building that stood empty for eight long years.

reply to post by kiwifoot

So because I chose to respect the victims I'm a bigot?

Over emotional, you aren't an American are you? Nor me, but trust me, if someone bombed the heart out of whatever city you're from, then less than a decade later a centre devoted to the religion of the bombers was planne3d, lets see how "over-emotional" you'd be!!

Where in my post did i call you a bigot??

My city (London) has been bombed by Nazis, IRA, al-Qaida and the Animal liberation front...

Over the years, London has had the crap bombed out of her so i think i know a thing of two about this!!

In fact i was in central London working during the July the 7th bombings. I couldn’t care a less if they built a Mosque, Animal shelter, Catholic church or a German sausage shop on any of the bomb sites because i have the common sense to realise that the people who committed these acts of terror are not representatives for the millions of others who happen to share the same religion, country of origin, or beliefs!

Peace


[edit on 30-8-2010 by Muckster]

reply to post by nunya13


The fact I like the best is......
If you believe the Mosque is being built there so the Muslims can scheme and plan nefarious deeds against the US, You are a Conspiracy Theorist!!

reply to post by kiwifoot


Did we ever truly find out who was behind the events of that day?
Or who the actual people were on the planes?
Remember this days Martyrs are not very bright, I imagine a Christian could manipulate a dummy just like a Muslim could.

(Edit)
We did find 1 passport in pristine condition I might add.
Just a bit away from all of the Pulverized concrete and steel.

[edit on 30-8-2010 by g146541]

Originally posted by americandingbat

Originally posted by kiwifoot
Nor me, but trust me, if someone bombed the heart out of whatever city you're from, then less than a decade later a centre devoted to the religion of the bombers was planne3d, lets see how "over-emotional" you'd be!!

As a New Yorker since the mid-1990s, I assure you that I am more offended by people like Sarah Palin claiming to know what's best for my city than I am by a Muslim congregation (which has met in the neighborhood of the WTC site for 27 years and which lost members in the towers on 9/11) trying to build a community center that will be open to the entire neighborhood in a building that stood empty for eight long years.

I understand, good points.

However, if we were only allowed to comment on our own neighbourhoods, cities and issues directly involving us then ATS may as well shut up shop. Sarah Palin, myself and the rest of the world is allowed an opinion about this.

Maybe some people are just more respectful than others. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just grew up respecting the dead, the elderly and the fallen. To me it is a amazingly disrespectful to build this Centre. That's just me.

I have nothing against Muslims, for god's sake I spent 5 years in Riyadh and 6 years in India growing up, I've had more contact with Muslims than most Muslims!! In my eyes, despite what nunya13 and Muckster will have you believe, this isn't about Muslims, it is about really taking into account the tragedy and the victims of 9/11.

I guess we are all just different.

Originally posted by Muckster
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

I have the common sense to realise that the people who committed these acts of terror are not representatives for the millions of others who happen to share the same religion, country of origin, or beliefs!

Peace


[edit on 30-8-2010 by Muckster]

Can I ask how old you are?

So let me get this right, I checked your profile:

If a group of Arsenal Fans blew up the entrance to White Heart Lane, killing 3,000 fans. Would you support an Arsenal Gift Shop and Supporters Club being built a few hundred meters form the site?

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Maybe some people are just more respectful than others. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just grew up respecting the dead, the elderly and the fallen. To me it is a amazingly disrespectful to build this Centre. That's just me.

How so? Muslim-Americans were among those killed. The Sufi Muslims that are responsible for this center have been explicitly targeted by Muslim Extremist. So I fail to connect an act of disrespect with erecting a peaceful religious building - whose aim is to strengthen inter-faith relations.

I have nothing against Muslims, for god's sake I spent 5 years in Riyadh and 6 years in India growing up, I've had more contact with Muslims than most Muslims!! In my eyes, despite what nunya13 and Muckster will have you believe, this isn't about Muslims, it is about really taking into account the tragedy and the victims of 9/11.

How is this not about Muslims? Would you have a problem with any other religious center built in the vicinity of Ground Zero? I would say this is definitively about Muslims. Sufi Muslim were victims of 9/11. Would you be opposed to Christians building a church a block away from where Christian Extremest had bombed an abortion clinic?

No one is saying you don't have the right to express your opinions... By the same token, we have the right to express our dissent.

[grammatical edit]

[edit on 30-8-2010 by misinformational]

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Why can't you get it. It is about RESPECT!!

Look it up in the dictionary mate. Out of RESPECT for the victims of MUSLIM FANATICS, it would be better to not build a MUSLIM centre close to the WTC site.

If it were Christians ZEALOTS that had done it in Riyadh, then building a Church close to the site would not show RESPECT either.

Try and get it, it doesn't matter to me what the religion is, colour of their skin, race, nationality, whatever, it is out of respect for the mostly NON-MUSLIM victims that I base my opinion.

Sheesh!

I could ask you the same - Why don't you get it's about eradicating bigotry and ignorance?

If your typical American were exposed to typical Islam (i.e. peaceful), then perhaps Islamophobia wouldn't be a newly coined term? Have you seen the amount of hate protesters are directing towards Muslims? It's every bit as bad as the 50/60s in regards to African Americans.

So only NON-MUSLIMS deserve to have their religious values undermined?

I encourage you to watch some videos of blacks entering white schools in the southeastern U.S during the 60s, then watch some of the protests surrounding this center... The similarities are disgusting.

reply to post by kiwifoot


Im 37... not sure what that has to do with anything

Unless, of course, you are about to point out that i am not old enough to remember the Nazis bombing London

I feel that your analogy regarding Arsenal is not really valid... Main reason being that even if there wasn’t a bomb... It would be highly unusual for a club to build a gift shop on its rival’s doorstep.

However, it is not unusual to build a mosque, church or temple in a multicultural metropolis!

A better analogy would be this...

Do you think that Catholic churches should be built near the IRA bomb sites?



[edit on 30-8-2010 by Muckster]

reply to post by kiwifoot


Its basicaly nothing at all to do with respect, and heres a thing bud, stop talkin ti #s like there thick eh.

The reason your arguement fails is, you are somehow implying that there is time limits on how long respect should be observed with regards to the actions involved. Would it be alright to build a prayer center there in 100 years time?, do you think thats ok?, how about 50 years?, how about 8 years 23 days and 4 hours?, these time frames mean nothing, they are entirely irrational.

How long a time did it take people to more or less forgive Germany or the Japanese, some morons still havnt.

So unless you can give a clearly defined time frame on when you are allowed to construct a prayer center in the vicinity of the hole in the ground that used to be the twin towers and why, theres not really much to say.

The arguement that could have any real substance is if the planing permision was petitiond by someone who had links to an Islamic military unit engaged in hostile activity against U.S forces. But its not, it is infact just a practical idea because the fact is there happens to be lots of muslims in new york who could to be honest do with another place to pray, thats all it is, anything else is just completely emotial, illogical hysterics.

[edit on 30-8-2010 by Johnze]

Originally posted by kiwifoot
[In my eyes, despite what nunya13 and Muckster will have you believe, this isn't about Muslims, it is about really taking into account the tragedy and the victims of 9/11.

And taking into account the tragedy and victims of 9/11 requires bringing Muslims into the mix. My aim with this thread is NOT to discount the opinions of those who disagree with me but to combat the untruths being perpetuated by those on the extreme end of the argument who tell tales of funding by terrorists, terrorism training at the mosque, and how this cultural center is actually a giant shrine to the supposed conquering of Ground Zero by Muslims. None of these claims have any basis in fact.

reply to post by kiwifoot


Yes, everyone has a right to an opinion (even Sarah Palin). I have the right to be offended by some of them

Respect for the rights of the Muslim Americans who live here does not imply a lack of respect for the victims of 9/11 or their families, at least as I understand respect. It's not a zero-sum thing, I don't have to take it away from one to give it to another.

Originally posted by Muckster
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

Unless, of course, you are about to point out that i am not old enough to remember the Nazis bombing London

[edit on 30-8-2010 by Muckster]

I was wondering......nah I just got the impression that you were of a younger generation. In fact you're older than me!!!

I give up, I should have never picked a fight with a Tottenham fan!! Here's a date for you:

Saturday, 30 October 2010

Expect a post on your Profile when you lose!!

As for the topic at hand, I'll just have to bow out from arguing you all and say that I just disagree. Thanks for the debate, I think you guys probably won, but I was alone!!



[edit on 30-8-2010 by kiwifoot]

Originally posted by americandingbat
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

Yes, everyone has a right to an opinion (even Sarah Palin). I have the right to be offended by some of them

Respect for the rights of the Muslim Americans who live here does not imply a lack of respect for the victims of 9/11 or their families, at least as I understand respect. It's not a zero-sum thing, I don't have to take it away from one to give it to another.

I do agree that it isn't zero-sum, however IMO it just smacks of bad taste.

Not a very scientific argument. Maybe that's the problem, I'm arguing from the heart!!

thanks for the debate, all the best, kiwi