Civility, decorum and the Aliens and UFO Forum

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
reply to post by CHRLZ

 

CHRLZ…..

The irrational commentary & abuse against members & witnesses attempting serious analysis can cause the whole discussion environment to deteriorate & even become dysfunctional.

The Sydney UFO ... thread is a good example of this:

**...** UFO In Sydney Australia **...**

The relentless irrational commentary & abuse by one or two members in that thread made things extremely difficult for those of us attempting serious analysis.

Agreed. That thread is quite a good example, and points at two other side issues.

First..
I've edited your quote a little, to make a small side point. As I have pointed out several times, I don't think the 'Hoax' repository is well-named. IMO, the Sydney thing was NOT a hoax. Just a misidentification, and a few confused memories. (Believe me, I know all about those..) Readers that followed that thread might recall that although I was pretty strenuous in pointing out 'issues' in the images, and the fact that the story didn't quite add up, I actually defended the originator on several occasions, even giving examples of how I had been similarly confused in the past. (more about this later...)

If I was the instigator of that video, or the thread, I would be quite unimpressed by it being tagged as **Hoax** (with asterisks for added embarrassment..?) This just helps to alienate (grin) people, divide the debate and add to the reticence they may feel in posting anything unusual. Sure, some folks/topics well-deserve the Hoax tag, but that one didn't, imo.


Secondly, it was quite noticeable in that thread, and a couple of notable recent ones since, that some posters want/ed to stir up the 'divide' by making comments like "so you are calling him/her a liar/hoaxer???".. Suggesting someone is mistaken is NOT calling them a liar/hoaxer. That sort of deliberate trouble-stirring is what I would like to see more moderator intervention on.

Having said that, I tend to not hit the Alert button very often, as I don't want to increase the workload - I wouldn't want to be a mod here for quids! Too hard. And to be complimentary for a moment , I think they generally do a stirling job... but on some threads it seems they might have abandoned all hope...

Ah well, it's all good... ! carry on...

I agree with the OP, and the comments of several others.

I see:

Hammer
Hammer
Hammer
Over and
Over and
Over.

Please make the case that you disagree with the OP and why, and move on, unless you have a new point to make.
I've finally just left threads because someone believes they have to comment on EVERY single post, usually with the same sentence or two.

I've always enjoyed reading these threads, however I don't comment much because I've never seen a UFO, and have nothing much to add. If I think something is a bug doing a fly-by, lol, I will usually chime in with my two.

But even reading theses threads now is getting tiresome. I'm not saying you can't hammer away. I'm just saying it's rude, and honestly, boring, to make the same comments over and over, and it DOES derail.

We get the picture after a post or two. That's plenty.

Thanks.

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been covered, as an adjunct to the "hoax" call it particularly annoys me when posters scream "liar" or "lies" when someone is either just wrong in an assumption or mistaken in an analysis.

Originally posted by m0r1arty
Galactic Light Federation threads, Star Child threads, The Indigos etc. all stay near the top and don't have those who 'believe' chide any flack for sharing their thoughts on the subject from moderators.

Just because YOU don't believe something, and YOU don't think its worthy of a place on ATS, does not mean that its valid to some people and it is.

The obvious charlatans are dealt with by the staff

YOU on the other hand, do not have to read those threads, much less comment on them

I find it insulting (and embarrassing for humanity too) when someone states something without proof, has many people buy into their belief system sometimes supplying the same lack of proof and this is promoted via stars, flags and lack of moderation.

ATS is a discussion forum. People discuss things here. YOUR OPINION does not dictate other peoples right to discuss a topic, and the staff of the board most certainly will not remove a topic just because you think it shouldn't be there.

I look for civility, I look for decorum and yet all I find are people populating a thread with wild claims which generate traffic for some other website full of vulnerable (and possibly mentally unsound) people.

I look for civility and decorum as well. Calling people you don't know mentally unsound isn't it. Not being able to control your thought patterns and sense of civility to the point where you have to go and trash someones thread most certainly isn't it either.

You do not regulate what is allowed to stay on ATS. The T&C is there for that.

Obvious hoaxers and frauds are removed. There is an alert system for members to contact the moderators if they think something is wrong with, or in, a thread. That system should be used and the staff will make a decision on it.

reply to post by neformore


Thanks for the reply neformore!

Whilst I would never wish for my opinion to be the overriding factor in deciding what is or is not acceptable topics open for discussion here on ATS I do feel that that it is worthwhile and share it as such.

Whilst I may disagree, sometimes on a fundamental level, with other posters I still consider their opinion worthwhile and would never ask them to not share it because I feel it is not of use.

I think asking sceptics to 'not necessarily respond' to posts they wish to share in, on a public discussion board, and not asking the same of those who wish to share their elation of having their belief system stoked is exclusive and not a balanced bias to have on these boards.

Scepticism isn't something that is wrong.

Denying ignorance by explaining the science behind a subject isn't debunking - it's education.

-m0r

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not

The irrational commentary & abuse against members & witnesses attempting serious analysis can cause the whole discussion environment to deteriorate & even become dysfunctional.

I agree. Abuse and personal attacks are not acceptable from either side of any discussion. There is no need to go there anyway. In most cases hard, neutral facts are more than enough to get your point across and even expose hoaxers and trolls. People also have the excellent choice of simply NOT responding to a thread or post if they think it has no merit whatsoever.

And how hard can it be to follow the T&C and behave like a normal person with a minimum of manners? Really, if people enjoy poo flinging, I suggest they head over and join the other monkeys at the YouTube comments sections. Don't ask me to toughen up and become a monkey too. I did not come to ATS for stupid poo. I came here to learn.

There is also something else I want to bring up, and that is the amount of off topic chit chat which I think is becoming a problem in the A&U forum. It doesn't really matter if the posts are made for "fun", to give someone a pat on the back or "lighten up" a thread. If a post or "funny" pic does not contribute anything at all to the topic and discussion at hand or even derails a thread completely, maybe it should not be posted. Maybe it is actually kind of rude to the OP to turn his/her thread into a stand up comedian act?

Off topic and fun is fine once in a while, but not over and over again in a thread. And it would be better to go to Chat or have a private conversation via U2U, email or Skype if you simply want to say hello to friends. I am getting a bit tired of scrolling past posts which has nothing at all to do with the content in the OP.

I am also sorry if this offends anyone, but it is my honest opinion and I wanted to get it off my chest.

Originally posted by neformore
YOUR OPINION does not dictate other peoples right to discuss a topic, and the staff of the board most certainly will not remove a topic just because you think it shouldn't be there.

i like what you are saying here nef, a lot.

but, if i may? ...

reading that gave me a thought, and i would like to expand on it by shortening it....

My opinion does not give me the right to dictate that other people do not have the right to have an opinion, or the process of forming an opinion.

i think that sorta says the same thing, and that is how i read it.

__________________

i whole heartedly support other peoples' right to hate, but if they hate ATSers in a hateful manner, i would hate to have to hate them for that hate.
__________________

one thing i don't like:

my usual response:

the first 12

's didn't bother me too much. but i think it was the 13th lol that hurt my feelings. 14 lol's and i think i might have started crying.

thoughts,
et

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

reply to post by Chadwickus



Sceptics are necessary on a board like this or it would turn into twaddle, I myself may find that I was adopting a sceptical stance just to cut away some dead wood.

I know a few of the posters regarded as ultra sceptics are actually believers with very harsh acceptance criteria.

Some of my first posts on the site were elicited in support of a poster making the claim that he had made an anti gravity machine, I didn't believe him but the gang like bullying really peed me off. The thing about the pseudo sceptics is that they are in many cases actually just bullies picking a soft wicket for an easy argument and they are not that clever if you take them away from their comfort zone and throw in a few tautologies and abstractions just to put them in a bad light as they were the OP.

If sceptics actually just want to "keep things real" and clear the absurdities from the board do they have to use sarcasm, scorn, snideness and sophistry?

Surely on the side of light, on the "easy wicket" they can take the high ground and just pleasantly point out mistakes and faulty assumptions without trying to score points by humiliating people.

It would benefit the sceptics as at the moment they often look like horrible people.


edit to add ing

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Thepreye]

reply to post by woodwytch

A quick reply to this post and reminder to all: If any member wishes to enquire as to why any particular action has been taken you can U2U the member of staff directly or, via use of the Complain/Suggestion feature found in the member center submit comment which is available for all staff to view.


In relation to the topic of scepticism, rather than offering similar content again I will take the liberty of simply linking to comments I made a while back:

Why the hell are skeptics allowed to post here?

To those who would view scepticism as a simple excercise undertaken with no real interest in the topic and solely in attempt to discredit any claim concerning the subject I would urge you view the second link offered in the above post. To find (as accurately as we may be able) the facts about any particular incident surely everyone concerned must desire open, reasoned and detailed analysis and investigation.

(The term “skeptic” derives from a Greek noun, skepsis, which means examination, inquiry, consideration.)

The refusal to entertain commentary from all sides carries no authority, only detrimental connotations. The demand for 'proof' (open to interpretation though individual bias anyway) as a prerequisite to consideration or investigation is, I would suggest, a dead end in a forum entitled 'Aliens and UFOs'. It is investigation has led to the 'proof' of the successful sciences we have today, refusal to entertain investigation due to a disinclination toward a potential result would have been detrimental to us all. (Old time religion anyone?)

I am of the belief that any constructive commentary has a place here. Stronger to me than that belief though is concept that civility and decorum are required from all sides if constructive discussion is the aim.

By all means let passion drive; but reason should steer.

[edit on 17/8/10 by JAK]

reply to post by JAK


Eloquently put JAK! Bravo!

IRM

reply to post by JAK


Very nicely put.

we need skeptics and believers for speculative conversations.
It is part of what makes ATS our ATS, i think.
__________________________________________

after five years on ATS i've learned at least one thing:

we learn more from an active dialogue between skeptics and believers, than we do by choosing a side and arguing ourselves into a corner for someone elses' delusions.

in other words:

my ATS is about learning more from the questions and answers skeptics and believers put forth in active dialogue, rather than becoming a perminent debunker or knower.

there is more to Q & A than there is a period. period?


[edit on 17-8-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by watchZEITGEISTnow
Perhaps the professional skeptics and debunkers can bring some of their own ET threads and help out eh?

I still don't understand why you skeptics and debunkers are even on "a conspiracy site"...what's that about?

Wouldn't life be better if you just stayed away - after all you don't believe in anything outside the limitations of your own minds. Doesn't it drive you nuts to be correct time and time again?

Again - why are you here?

And looking at the title of this thread, would you consider that courteous? As others have already pointed out, this is a two way street.

Originally posted by watchZEITGEISTnow
Perhaps the professional skeptics and debunkers can bring some of their own ET threads and help out eh?

I still don't understand why you skeptics and debunkers are even on "a conspiracy site"...what's that about?

Wouldn't life be better if you just stayed away - after all you don't believe in anything outside the limitations of your own minds. Doesn't it drive you nuts to be correct time and time again?

Again - why are you here?

This is a perfect example of why people get hammered on the forum.

As far as I'm concerned, they have it coming.

One thing I do forget in times of annoyance when debating a thread is that the level of proof one accepts is up to the individual. Just because I need more proof does not mean that the individual I am debating with does now or never will need that same level of proof.

When anyone starts a thread they should keep in mind that not everyone will agree with their post, and be willing to accept that there may be information out there that might show an alternate explanation for what you are presenting. However those posting in a thread should be aware that the reason a user is posting the information they are, is because they are slanted toward believing what they are posting or they would not be posting it, so when posting information that is contrary to the OP story or information be ready to debate what you are providing against the original information, because it is then on you to show why the original information is incorrect, since the OP has already stated their side in the opening post to the thread.

I understand the need to educate people that the original poster information may be false, however if posters just posted their stories and their was no opposing opinions threads would die pretty quickly, just look in the “Ancient & Lost Civilization” threads where news articles are shown where archeologists uncovered this or that, many times there are no debates and the threads go one or two pages and die, if the same thing happened in the “Aliens and UFOs” threads, the same thing would happen. Then you have the other thought that is if false stay out there without being refuted, then newcomers to the site will think the stories are true which could hinder the subject even more.

I know this reply has been rather lengthily and I don’t know if I depicted my stance very well, but simply weather you are the OP of a thread or someone debating within the thread try to use a little civility. If you notice someone not being civil with you, do not respond in kind there are many higher roads you can take. Try taking the conversation out of the thread via U2U, and let them know how you felt about their comments, if they are still being uncivil, alert the staff. Do not try to convert someone to your way of thinking just present your evidence from whatever side you may be coming from and once you have both dealt your cards, be sucure in the knowledge that you shared your knowledge and it is up to the other person what to do with the knowledge you imparted on them.

Phil Plait (of Bad Astronomer) gave a speech about the need for civility among skeptics (though it applies to all) at TAM8.

Don't Be A Dick

In short, it is hard enough to reason someone into a position they are already antagonistic towards. Why should you make it harder by being less-than-civil?

who has two thumbs and feels stupid?

< this guy.

so i'm in the Aliens forum and i'm looking through the thread titles. i'm wondering where this thread went. i'm scrolling down ... scrolling down ...

i think to myself as i am nearing the bottom:
"if this thread is already on page 2, ATS is in worse shape than i thought."

and then, in a moment of sanity i scroll up to the top, and here it is, right where it belongs!

It's about time someone posts this. Thank you

reply to post by InfaRedMan


No, its just that there are some, and I will personally not name any of them because they know who they are. They take even the most legit sightings, and turn it into a debunking playground even when it shouldn't be necessary, then they move on to the next thread and do the same. It often gets old, not only does it make me sick, but its like anything that is thrown at them, and I do mean anything, they attempt to turn it into a topic of Debunk.

Why they are here on ATS? I don't know, but they could be making the big bucks by working for the exact same place in govt that is keeping the lid on this. Whats stopping them?

[edit on 17-8-2010 by QuantumDeath]

Originally posted by QuantumDeath
Why they are here on ATS?

I can certainly answer this on my own behalf confidently knowing that many feel as I do.

I care very much for the topic of aliens and ufos. Even as a sceptic, I want the truth as much as you do. However, my criteria is set much higher than the regular 'believer'. I also wish to counter the negativity of people who bring UFOlogy into disrepute such as the people listed in my signature.

I don't know, but they could be making the big bucks by working for the exact same place in govt that is keeping the lid on this.

That's a tired cliché. You don't really believe that do you?

Whats stopping them?

Simple. They have no such agenda. I think you're blowing things out of proportion.

IRM

Originally posted by QuantumDeath
I don't know, but they could be making the big bucks by working for the exact same place in govt that is keeping the lid on this.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
That's a tired cliché. You don't really believe that do you?

It may be, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not going on somewhere/somehow at this exact moment.

Why not believe in it? I look at J Allen Hynek. (www.cohenufo.org...). Glad hes on our side now, and not working for those at the USAF. But there's no telling on who else he was working for to keep the people under control, as they saw his raw potential at debunking and his long list of credentials. Yes, I believe there is a higher power playing a role here, and it most definitely has the majority of the people on its leash.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by QuantumDeath]

Seems like if the site owners want civility they might be checking the threads going on right now! The old "sceptics suck" seems to be raging!
These attacks are in reply to a OP that is a sceptic, not somebody attacking someone elses "sighting".