Guns or No Guns?? Your views.

I have made this thread because there has been much arguing on the thread about the UK gunman's rampage....

Some people decided to come into the thread and gloat about how it would never happen if we Brits had guns, even when examples were presented that shootings can and do happen, far more frequently in the US than here in the UK.

So rather than derail that thread even further, I have made this one so people can argue their case and gloat and belittle each other about how their respective country has it right on firearms laws and who has the biggest penis.

And can we please keep all the gun talk on here and leave the other thread for those to mourn the dead and get info on people who may be injured and so on.

Thanks.

[edit on 3/6/2010 by BlackPoison94]

I'm for guns.

I used to own a handgun until the Dunblane tragedy, and enjoyed many years of shooting before that both in the forces and civvy street.

None of the thousands of fellow gun owners i knew ever did anything like this.

Whether it's guns, knives or whatever else anyone goes on a killing spree with next, it just ends up that in 99.99999999% of the time, the bad guys end up with the guns and the law abiding enthusiasts like myself get shafted.

I'm not saying i'd agree with laws as relaxed as some parts of other countries, then again i hear other areas have very tight gun controls.

All i know is that most of the gun owners i know and have ever met are the most responsible people in the world.



It's not like people here even buy guns for home or personal defence like in other countries, it's usualy for sporting or practical reasons around farms and the likes.

I just wish the people who make our laws here would get their heads out of their backsides for five seconds.

I predict that within ten years we'll see a futher ban on air rifles, most shotguns and of course crossbows now that one guy has gone stupid with one in Bradford.

Hopefully this thread won't slip into a US gun law slanging match. The thread is about our gun laws.

CX.

The most direct comparison of any sort for guns is cars.

Both are 100% mechanical.
Both are great fun.
Both are equally deadly.
Both require extensive training.
Both require ongoing maintenance.

There is nothing wrong with guns, no more than is wrong with cars.

As always, the problem is people. I am very "pro-gun", as i am very "pro-car". The problem is, banning legal gun ownership ALWAYS results in higher illegal ownership (thats inevitable) but illegal guns are the ones that kill the most people.

Accidents happen, but they a in the minority, and ALWAYS the result of stupidity and or negligence.

reply to post by CX



I actually agree...I think if people want them to go shooting, hunting, clay pigeon or to a rifle/gun range and so on, then that's fine.
I know that's kind of how it is now, but you know after this, they're going to try and say they we need to just outlaw guns altogether... which is just silly.

As you said, we don't have guns at home for protection and we don't just carry them around and never did before.
It's only people who go shooting at ranges and so on who have them.

This guy was a licensed owner so no laws would have prevented it.

I have never been a proponent of the legalisation of guns in Britain - mainly due to the current 'gun culture' that is apparent over here, something that is also evident in the US.

However the idea of a rational, gun educated populace who respect the responsibility of owning a gun (albeit unrealistic) is something I could accept.

I think Switzerland have the right idea concerning gun control...

Instead of a standing, full-time army, the country requires every man to undergo some form of military training for a few days or weeks a year throughout most of their lives.

Between the ages of 21 and 32 men serve as frontline troops. They are given an M-57 assault rifle and 24 rounds of ammunition which they are required to keep at home.

Once discharged, men serve in the Swiss equivalent of the US National Guard, but still have to train occasionally and are given bolt rifles. Women do not have to own firearms, but are encouraged to.

If ever a nation had "a well-regulated militia," it is Switzerland. Nineteenth-century economist Adam Smith thought Switzerland the only place where the whole body of the people had successfully been drilled in militia skills.

Indeed, the militia is virtually synonymous with the nation. "The Swiss do not have an army, they are the army, says one government publication. Fully deployed, the Swiss army has 15.2 men per square kilometre; in contrast, the U.S.A. and U.S.S.R. have only .2 soldiers per square kilometre. Switzerland is 76 times denser with soldiers than either superpower. Indeed, only Israel has more army per square kilometre.

Mark Eisenecker, a sociologist from the University of Zurich told BBC News Online that guns are "anchored" in Swiss society and that gun control is simply not an issue.

Some pro-gun groups argue that Switzerland proves their contention that there is not necessarily a link between the availability of guns and violent crime in society.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Guns don't kill people...

Lack of education, mental illness and our collapsing society does.

Reply to post by blupblup

You guys did carry them around. They were a popular acessory. Especially for women. You guys had some fantastic little derringers disguised as pillboxes and handbags and other female things.

There is some arms museum in the UK whose curattor is often in documentaries about war and weapons and whenever he's on he shares information about Britains past with firearms so many people up here are too quick to either deny or dismiss. Mostly due to ignorance and age I'm sure. When I'm not a mobile device I'll find more info about the guy and his work.

In short Britain has a huge history with arms for sporting and personal defense and at one time more Britains carried arms for defense than Americans and this currator guy is angry as hell not just for his government stripiing that history from it's people but also at the people for so easilly allowing history to be forgotten or rewritten to suit some image.

Added: I believe this is the museum: www.royalarmouries.org...

Under "Curator's Talks" there are a few firearms related. I'm still trying to find a clip of the "Self-Defense in Britain" documentary I saw on the History Channel but everytime I search I'm inundated with relatively recent gun ranting and cant get to anything older than the ban.

[edit on 3-6-2010 by thisguyrighthere]

Ideally, no guns would be the obvious position to take. That said, it's reality and not ideals that has the loudest voice.

From my point of view, guns don't work in the USA. It's a cultural issue and if I was to live there I'd buy a gun as soon as I was allowed to. US gun culture, in that sense, is self-perpetuating. At the same time, gun ownership is a part of the fabric of being an American...it's complicated cultural identity and unlikely to change.

The Swiss have guns in every house. They don't have the gun crime or shootings that feature in the US or other S.American countries. This is due to their 'gun culture' being wholly different from others. They have an informed context for guns.

Canada has similar gun laws to the UK and have similarly low levels of gun crime. In those nations, a burglar is less likely to be carrying a gun than in the States. People are less likely to be shot or have a need to defend themselves with guns.

On ATS I've often seen the expression of NRA sentiments. In particular, I remember a very well-known member cheerfully dismissing statistical evidence against possession of weapons. Higher death rates? Ha! Higher gun crime? That's why need guns! I think it was you, Blup Blup having the debate with him. I realised then, that the US will always have guns.

Anyway, I've seen many a poster see society as being 'safer' if everyone carries a gun. That's how they see it and they ain't changing. If I live in a country where hardly anyone is armed and people aren't being shot dead everyday, I say it's way safer than a society with gun culture.

As long as the government has guns, so should I. Till the governments are relieved of arms, this is the end of discussion.

But regarding guns generally, I like them, they are fun and it's one of the hobbies that keeps me from sitting infront of the computer screen 24/7 while I'm not working.

I like guns, if you have a problem with it, then you can go over 'there' and live in your perfect little world.

Like the other person made the comparison to guns and cars...

Is it more dangerous to have a hobby modifiying and racing cars on the streets, or for me to have a hobby of collecting and firing them in a safe location for recreational purposes, let alone self defense?

The idea of what a gun is has already been established. As long as the idea exists, i strongly believe we should have access to this defensive tool. Owning a gun is a great responsibility so one must use common sense before operating.

i'm american and this is what i would do, if it were up to me:

get rid of ALL guns
no matter who or why or where

all guns going into the ocean
NO EXCEPTIONS

this includes cannon, missile launchers, etc.

hell, if i'm gonna do all that, then i might as well say that anything of a violent weapon nature that has no other purpose other than to KILL man or animal must GO!

no exceptions.

that's what i would do.

Sorry to but in guys. Been a lurker here for a long time but no way could I not make my views known on this one. The UK has changed drastically for the worse since handguns were banned. Now the criminals KNOW that they're the only ones with the shooters! Whilst law abiding people like myself are reduced to relying on the police to protect ourselves and our families. (Who generally turn up 2 hours too late).
Why shouldn't a 30 year old guy with no criminal record and no mental health problems not be able to possess whatever firearm he wishes? Or even a less than lethal option like a tazer? At the moment in my screwed up nation you get the same sentence for being caught with a stun gun as you would a 9mm. And then they wonder why people have no respect for the law!!!!!! Personally, I am getting my family out of this PC mad dump that my formerly beloved country has become.

Originally posted by queenannie38
i'm american and this is what i would do, if it were up to me:

get rid of ALL guns
no matter who or why or where

all guns going into the ocean
NO EXCEPTIONS

this includes cannon, missile launchers, etc.

hell, if i'm gonna do all that, then i might as well say that anything of a violent weapon nature that has no other purpose other than to KILL man or animal must GO!

no exceptions.

that's what i would do.

WORD!
Are you vegetarian then?

Guns are good.
Some people are bad.
That is plain and simple why we need guns.
If bad people didn't use guns, they would use knives. Then knives would then be portrayed by idiots, as bad...
For the idiots that think guns are bad, I'll bet they wouldn't think that if their life was saved by one.
Criminals love a disarmed victims.
Do yourself, your family, and society a favor and have the able to fight on any level needed, buy guns and lots of ammo.

Disarm the public and only criminals will have guns. Isn't that correct Britan?

Originally posted by jeh2324

Disarm the public and only criminals will have guns. Isn't that correct Britan?

Admittedly so and many seem to be okay with it since "only the hardest criminals have guns here" is a common pro-ban reply.

Even their Olympic Athletes are criminals:

Following the awarding of the 2012 Olympic Games to London, the government announced that special dispensation would be granted to allow the various shooting events to go ahead, as had been the case previously for the 2002 Commonwealth Games. However, it was still illegal for Britain's top pistol shooters to train in England, Scotland or Wales. As a result, British shooters currently spend 20 to 30 days a year training in Switzerland, and receive no public sports funding because their events are considered illegal in the UK.[23]

Why bother competing at all? Be proud of your ban Britains!! Refuse to compete in the barbaric Olympic games. Take a brave stand.

I don't want to live in a country where every taxi driver, every lady delivering brochures, every retired couple out shopping, every bloke mending a fence, everyone riding a bike to keep fit, is carrying a gun .......

On the other hand, I see no reason to prevent those who currently own guns from doing so, though there may be a case for tightening up the licensing procedures.

Of course, cases such as that this week in Cumbria are totally removed from use of guns in deliberate crimes where persons obtain guns illegally. If there were to be any change to the law I'd be looking at illegal possession of firearms as a minimum 20 year jail term - and supplying illegal firearms 30 years. And have a nationwide drive to find and arrest all who have such weapons. Even if it mean building a couple more high security prisons to house the stinking scum.

(Oh, and on completion of their jail sentence they will be deported - even if their family has lived in Britain for 100 generations)


Edit: forget jail. Let's make possession of an illegal firearm mean automatic castration

[edit on 3-6-2010 by Essan]

reply to post by queenannie38

QueenAnnie38,
I have half an acre of six foot chain link fence to make a safe place for my dogs to run and play. Outside this six foot chain link fence, about 1/4 mile away a large pack of cyotes live. They have been known to jump my six foot fence and run through the family pets' yard. Now, if one of the dogs were outside when this pack hopped my fence what do you think would happen? I keep a gun, and I would shoot at and into the pack to protect my pets, kids and livestock.

I have a chicken coop that is shut at night, but in the daytime my chickens are free range. I've had foxes come take a chicken in broad daylight. I've had 'possum break into my coop and eat chickens by night. I've also shot 'possums right in my coop. Did you know that they eat the chicken while it's still alive?

I am 35 minutes from the nearest law enforcement agency. If I have a thief, or a rapist, or a nut job trying to get into my house what do you suggest I do? Call the police? I'd be dead and they'd be long gone before any police officer ever got here.

It's not reasonable to suggest that there are no reasons to own guns. I was taught gun safety by my father beginning at 8 years old. I have grandchildren now and have always owned guns but I've never used one on a human being, never even crossed my mind (except maybe on the infant molester who was hiding in the acreage behind my house armed to the teeth).

Gun ownership does not equate to lunatic on a murderous rampage.

reply to post by blupblup


Guns really aren't the issue. Sanity is really the core of the issue. Unfortunately that issue is in the purview of the "psyche" professions who are also behind the programs being used to manipulate the masses to complacency conformity and addiction. The real problem is the mixture of the two.

You know, maybe these people who do not believe in being armed or owning guns are doing the rest of us a favor. They obviously don't trust themselves with a gun. One bad day and their whole office would feel their instability.
So thank you to the domesticated hippies for not shotting me while I work. I know your unstable, I won't hold it against you. But don't come for my gun or you'll get it barrel first.