LHC knocked out by ANOTHER power failure

Originally posted by Cadbury

In the event of a catastrophic failure that knocks out both the Swiss and French grids due to, for example, a natural disaster, CERN has several massive diesel generators designed to power submarines, which are poised to roar to life at the first hint of an emergency.

Incredible! What the heck does CERN need with submarines anyway? How do they help by roaring to life in the case of a power loss? Is it some kind of Dr. Evil-esque escape plan? What sort of crackpots put that thing together? I am certain their madness is without bounds.

reply to post by Toecutter.


For two particles moving at .999c I think they should collide at:

.999*c*2/(1 + ((.999*c)^2/c^2)) = 299792308 m/s = 0.9999995 c

Can you explain that to me please I am not a scientist or a Mathematician .

Simple english would be good, I may not be highly educated but i'm not dumb, not trying to be sarcastic either. Just interested.

Thanks for the reply also. I just don't want to seem to be difficult but I want to understand.

Thanks

Originally posted by '___'omino
Yes! The Saga Continues giving crazy theories a chance!

LOL, and that even goes for both sides

"masonic" science vs. the "masonic" new age.

Since "climategate" even more, I have come to suspect that science that matters is heavily manipulated and not to be trusted. Like, why is there no AEther setting on my multimeter?

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
I would like to express my thanks to whoever or whatever powers are at work trying to stop the LHC from functioning. If it is simply Lady Luck who is responsible, then I owe her my slightly used tiara.

Perhaps it is too soon to judge whether or not damage has been done. What if the LHC has sent waves percolating back and forth within the earth ... will anyone be able to put 2 and 2 together when the Andes suddenly flatten and three European nations vanish in the twinkling of an eye?

No, of course not, Science can do no wrong.

What? WHY?

We should all just live in straw huts and gather fruit, to be the best we can?

Why wish bad fate and applaud it when it occurs on things that WILL MAKE US BETTER?

Blimey, I want to be a different species sometimes, just so I can say GO For It, to those who want to live in ignorance.

But I cant. EVERY SING ONE OF YOU HERE TODAY, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, IS THE RESULT OF SOMEONE MAKING A SCIENTIFIC ACHIEVEMENT IN HISTORY.

Deal the hell with it. jesus..

reply to post by Ha`la`tha


So can you answer my questions on page four of this thread for me please?

Thank You

Originally posted by Toecutter.
Can you explain that to me please I am not a scientist or a Mathematician .

Simple english would be good, I may not be highly educated but i'm not dumb, not trying to be sarcastic either. Just interested.

Thanks for the reply also. I just don't want to seem to be difficult but I want to understand.

Thanks

Velocity addition in special relativity is not linear. Relative to your refrence frame, they may be going .999*2 c relative to each other but neither is moving > c relative to YOU. From their own respective refrence frames, the other particle is moving 0.9999995 c.

I'm sure if made any errors, bhuddasystem can correct me, and I would appreciate that.

Originally posted by Seiko
reply to post by SeeingBlue

 

Trial & Errors makes things right.

Given the context of the higgs boson, I'd rather less error.

It might not destroy all life as we know it, but it can theoretically have some dire consequences.

I suspect that it was the U.S. effort into researching the higgs boson that led to the untimely demise of Absorbine Senior. See? Nobody remembers that guy, the only trace of him is his offspring Absorbine JUNIOR, and note: Junior never talks about his Dad, just like Jor-El is seldom discussed very much by his son Kal-el.

This is hugh and series.

reply to post by Seiko


True, if we were buidling a soapbox race car, sure I'd expect it to fall apart the first couple of test runs, its the nature of the work. However, these people working on the LHC are probably some of the brightest in the world, and have a near endless amount of funds. Why shouldnt something so high profile and potentially detrimental be done right the first time? I own two contracting businesses and let me tell you, these guys are barely literate, most of them highschool dropouts, if they install a plumbing, medical gas, acid waste, or fire protection system and it fails...... those guys are kicked to the curb. Its unacceptable for failure at that level

Originally posted by Toecutter.
reply to post by Ha`la`tha

 

So can you answer my questions on page four of this thread for me please?

Thank You

Maybe if your question was factually correct someone could.

I on the other hand, cannot.

The speed of light is finite. Who told you, or who did I not read, that says this will be a breakthrough in the speed of light?

As far as I know, the particles will be traveling at 99.9999991% the speed of
light. This event occurs all the time in nature. And perhaps we are an ever destroyed/remade version of ourselves due to it - akin to the concept of teleportaion theory, which is concerned with the self being destroyed, the matter refabricated elsewhere and the essence of self recreated, but ultimately the self being gone having been destroyed - are we truly US?

Maybe we experience this thousands of times a day, due to natures own subatomic black holes from massive particle interaction?

So, rephrase, rethink or LINK to a source of your question. You didn't ask a question, you merely postulated an opinion. One as far as I can tell is based on an erroneous claim.

Thank you.

reply to post by EnlightenUp


OK I think I understand what you are saying now thanks.

So "Special relativity" is a different thing to the relativity in a car crash?

If so, is this provable or a theory ?

Thank you very much for the explanation, it is very interesting, maybe I should educate myself a bit on this subject.

Cheers

Originally posted by Erasurehead


The LHC is offline again. This project really is cursed.
(visit the link for the full news article)

i wouldn't necessarily be saying cursed, the way i always looked at projects is if every thing goes off with out a hitch then you need to start worrying. Have some faith though if there's any group of nerds in the world that can get it running its them.

reply to post by Ha`la`tha


OK Forget the questions on page 4. I accept that particles do travel at the speed you say in nature.

But do they travel at that speed in opposite directions in nature ?

That is what I am trying to ask.

Thanks for your reply I appreciate it.

Originally posted by Toecutter.
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

OK I think I understand what you are saying now thanks.

So "Special relativity" is a different thing to the relativity in a car crash?

If so, is this provable or a theory ?

Thank you very much for the explanation, it is very interesting, maybe I should educate myself a bit on this subject.

Cheers

Just to say, it's the first time ever that I bothered calculating anything in relativity. Some more reflection tells me my answer must be correct.

I don't know off hand any experiments directly testing velocity addition, unfortunately. It is not different than a car crash. The denominator, 1 + uv/c^2 is approximately equal to 1 at automobile speeds, and so the numerator alone (sum of velocities) u + v is a very close approximation.

But, there is one thing I noticed. There is actually rather heavy mystical truth encoded in the theory.

Consider things from the perspective of the experimenter (perhaps you are imaging yourself in that position) where he or she sees two particles approaching each other at .999 c. Yes, indeed it appears as though they are moving at .999c * 2 = 1.998 c relative to each other. Paradox you say? I say no!

It seems the key to resolving apparent paraxodes and contradictions is to be able to see things from another's point of view instead of selfishly your own. In the example, to get the right answer you have to see things from one or the other particles' point of view.

The particles "sees" you, the experimenter approaching at .999c and "knows" that the other particle is moving at .999c relative to you. It "sees" the relativistic addition as the speed of the approaching particle.


Apologies for the semi-OT. I thought it worth sharing with a curious sort.

At the end of the day is this something we should really be playing around with? We have no idea what will happen (even the guys running the show can't be sure) if it's successful.

When this first came to light in the UK I only found out about it the day before it was due to power up because my kids came home from school saying "the world ends tomorrow morning!" It was their science teachers that had told them about it.

I was mad as hell that the kids had been given the impression that everything could end. By the end of that day parents in our area from three separate schools were up in arms over ALL the kids having been told the same thing. I have to admit that I was more than a little worried about it.

As for advancing our technology, well that's just fine. When it doesn't involve something that we have no idea about and could affect so many people who didn't give their 'ok' to be involved - well that's just plain stupid!

I did laugh at the comment that it won't work until december 2012, however, i think it's just a case of someone not doing their job properly.
I come across this sort of thing everyday at work, the amount of times i've had to correct fundamental mistakes made by 'experts'.
I really think they should pull their finger out, at this rate Europe will be bankrupt before this machine gets finished.
One more point they seem to have overlooked, if 2 protons having antiparallel spin collide, they will pass right through each other with no effect at all (this has already been proven).

Originally posted by Toecutter.
reply to post by Ha`la`tha

 

OK Forget the questions on page 4. I accept that particles do travel at the speed you say in nature.

But do they travel at that speed in opposite directions in nature ?

That is what I am trying to ask.

Thanks for your reply I appreciate it.

Fair call - That I'd need to look up or read more about, at the moment I'm not sure, I've assumed it's a given. Proving it, well, thats a different fish

I would however, like to assume that since we have the capability to determine where black holes exist (By the very lack of ANYTHING we're looking at, in the first place) that they have to be far more exuberant in direct proportion to affect us, than anything which occurs in nature.

IE;. what we're making in the HLC is just s spec of dust in the entire explosion that, in general, we can assume is what we call the universe around us.

I think they call it the God Particle, because it's existence has yet to be proven, but the BELIEF is that it does. Higgs Boson, you whacky fellows..

Originally posted by SeeingBlue
It's a big NEW machine with lots of parts. Stuff is going to break. Even as a programmer I realize that you can't code a program one time through and expect everything to work perfect.

Trial & Errors makes things right.

In no way should an untested program ever be used on such a massive project. We should not be learning from errors on something like this, the errors could have a incredibly damaging action to the planet if it somehow fails to stick to the safety of the original test idea.

What we have here is a test of a theory based upon theory, it's already taking a chance so when it dies twice it could be someone trying to tell us to stop.

reply to post by Kellys


A few hundred years ago, that sentiment would prevent new medicine from being tested.

THIS WONT KILL YOU.

At most, you'll get toe carry on about the cost.



We're not goign to get wipe*whoosh*

What is there to prove that the LHC is really having problems ? Except for websites relaying the information we have nothing... I could easily see all this as being an excuse for not publishing results (maybe there has been a big discovery after all...) I don't believe in coincidence! All the other colliders worldwide did not have these type of problems did they (ok they where smaller)?