US right-wing groups keen to demonise NHS

www.pressandjournal.co.uk...

Bitter exchanges in the US over healthcare reform have seen Britain’s NHS drawn into the debate, with American right-wingers keen to demonise the UK system.

Campaign groups have been airing adverts detailing horror stories from UK patients it claims were deprived of treatment under the NHS.

They have been warning that universal state-provided care like Britain’s should not be adopted by the US.

Commentators have suggested veteran senator Edward Kennedy and physicist Stephen Hawking would be left to die under the UK system because of their age and disability respectively.

The second of these claims, in Investor’s Business Daily, was corrected after the newspaper realised the renowned scientist was born, and still lives and works, in the UK.

With 50million people un-insured, President Obama is proposing reforms to extend state cover. But the plans are meeting hostility, with conservatives allegedly “ambushing” town hall meetings on the issue which have then descended into shouting matches. Opponents say it would be too costly for taxpayers, and would result in less choice being available.

The Investor’s Business Daily had written: “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the UK, where the NHS would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.”

Mr Hawking himself yesterday debunked the allegation, saying: “I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment, without which I would not have survived.”

A spokeswoman for the UK Department of Health rejected allegations that it discriminates on the basis of age.

What has this argument over US healthcare plans reduced to?? After reading threads on this issue on ATS, it seems to me that some American's have been lowered to standards of bickering, insults and outright lies in order to spread anti-Obama sentiment, whether that be towards his healthcare plans, other policies, or just Obama himself.

Are there are legitimate issues towards the healthcare plan? Or are these plans by republicans to discredit Obama using any means available, including propaganda and lies?

I've seen threads with sources calling Obama a Nazi, and making accusations that will mean people with certain illnesses won't receive treatment.

But, is it not true that under the new system, American's would still be able to have their own health insurance as they do now if they wish to receive further treatment beyond the govt. insurance? Which is similar in Britain to seeing private doctors for treatment if the NHS waiting list is too long for certain expensive treatments. After all every govt. has a budget.

So how does the new US system have new drawbacks, if those drawbacks were there before?

The NHS in Britain has been one of Labour's most successful policies, and with everything of course there's room for improvement. But if you concentrate on the bad issues only then you won't get the full picture, especially if you may base your opinion on mis-information. The good points definitely outweight the bad points!

I've also heard arguments that Obama's healthcare plans are too costly, but is that really true??? And is this not something good to spend money on for a change rather than costly wars?? Would tax increases be legitimate, as govt. healthcare funding needs to get money from somewhere, and would this system not benefit everybody?


[edit on 13-8-2009 by john124]

We just don't want our Govt' to be as intrusive as they are in the U.K.

My opposition to this bill is not about healthcare, it is about Govt' control, and not trusting OUR Govt' to handle the job properly.

Our country was created, and formed to get away from England, why would we want to adopt their way of living? If you hadn't noticed, England's Govt' is far more intrusive than our own, and I'd really like to keep it that way.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

question.

Does Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, or the Queen have to wait in line with the plebes?

hmmmm?


OH?

What's that you say?

They don't?

They have fully privatized insurance and see private doctors?

Really?

But I thought the NHS was AWESOME DUDE!

Why are you demonising anyone who disagrees with this silly agenda?

I am not part of any right wing group, and I am not right wing.

I just do not want the .gov telling me what I can and cannot do.

Id honestly rather die standing up than live on my knees.

I bet this kind of "liberty" talk is foreign to most people, because they are so enslaved they think more enslavement is a good thing.

This has nothing to do with "Is NHS good" it has to do with, does the government have the right to force their version of medical care down my throat???

What if I dont want medical care? What if I would rather suffer in pain than submit to this dehumanization?

Is my life not my own? Is my body owned by the .gov now?

This really boils down to this issue. Who owns my body and my life?
Me or .Gov?
At least that is my view of this.

I think the UK should have a good blog fest on the gun laws in the USA . Pick it apart , criticize it , laugh at it and point fingers at it's advocates with disdain and pity , and generally call the whole thing a failed abortion of unprecedented magnitude . See how long it takes for those same people who criticize the UK's NHS to whine of outsiders sticking their nose in affairs that do not concern them.

Originally posted by mnemeth1
question.

Does Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, or the Queen have to wait in line with the plebes?

hmmmm?


OH?

What's that you say?

They don't?

They have fully privatized insurance and see private doctors?

Really?

But I thought the NHS was AWESOME DUDE!

Most people aren't that well off.

Yes if you can afford to go private then many do..... as I said before the NHS has a budget. For those who can't afford to go private, then the NHS can be a life-saver.

If you concentrate on one particular negative aspect then you will dislike it, that's guaranteed.

How many can afford their own healthcare insurance in the US?

Originally posted by john124

Originally posted by mnemeth1
question.

Does Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, or the Queen have to wait in line with the plebes?

hmmmm?


OH?

What's that you say?

They don't?

They have fully privatized insurance and see private doctors?

Really?

But I thought the NHS was AWESOME DUDE!

Most people aren't that well off.

Yes if you can afford to go private then many do..... as I said before the NHS has a budget. For those who can't afford to go private, then the NHS can be a life-saver.

If you concentrate on one particular negative aspect then you will dislike it, that's guaranteed.

How many can afford their own healthcare insurance in the US?

Ever stop and occur to you that may be they aren't that well off because they are being taxed to death?

People who have private insurance in the UK are paying for insurance TWICE, since they pay for the NHS in taxes.

Of course, if you are a rich bastard like the Queen, such expenses are trivial.

This is the heart of the argument against socialist crap care. The VAST majority of people in this country have private insurance and those that don't can STILL GET CARE. Socializing the system does nothing but prevent the masses from getting the same quality of care as the elites.


So instead of having 10 million people in America that don't have insurance and get poorer quality of care (they still get care), we will have 300 million people getting poor quality care with a handful of elites and bureaucrats getting high quality care.

Socializing the entire medical system to supposedly help 10 million people is ridiculous considering the massive harm it will do to the other 290 million.

We like our private care insurance, we like our private hospitals, we like our high quality of care, and we don't like to wait.

Socialism is garbage.





\

[edit on 13-8-2009 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by KnoxMSP


And corporate control of heath care has been so much better and cheaper???

To the OP ... sorry but the right doesn't have to 'demonise' NHS.
The facts speak for themselves. NHS has shown itself to be wrong.

Originally posted by grover
And corporate control of heath care has been so much better and cheaper???

And the gov't does such a great job of running the country ... and running programs like social security ... etc etc?

Originally posted by grover
reply to post by KnoxMSP

 

And corporate control of heath care has been so much better and cheaper???

You cannot compare the two.

And as I have said, this opposition is not about healthcare, this is about our Govt' and a power grab. I assume anyone who supports this bill has not read it, or doesn't mind losing liberties, and freedoms, for convienience.

I am not college educated, nor am I rich, but I have no problem providing my family of four with healthcare.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

[edit on 13-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Why are you demonising anyone who disagrees with this silly agenda?

I am not part of any right wing group, and I am not right wing.

I just do not want the .gov telling me what I can and cannot do.

Id honestly rather die standing up than live on my knees.

I bet this kind of "liberty" talk is foreign to most people, because they are so enslaved they think more enslavement is a good thing.

This has nothing to do with "Is NHS good" it has to do with, does the government have the right to force their version of medical care down my throat???

What if I dont want medical care? What if I would rather suffer in pain than submit to this dehumanization?

Is my life not my own? Is my body owned by the .gov now?

This really boils down to this issue. Who owns my body and my life?
Me or .Gov?
At least that is my view of this.

I'm not trying to demonise anybody... I was just asking legitimate questions on what people disagreed with Obama's plans, and pointing out that a few have gone a little bit too far.

I don't think Obama's plans include forced treatment.

Can you still pay not for your own separate healthcare insurance if you wish?

Does this not benefit the many, and aren't the opinions of every American also as valid as yours? Maybe a referendum would be suitable here.

Isn't it a little selfish to not wish to contribute to an American health system where many millions would benefit, and after all one day you yourself may be in a position of poverty and may benefit from it.

I understand that you want freedom of choice, but isn't it a little paranoid to fear it in the way you seem to?

Sometimes the greater good of the many may outweigh your own desires.

To satisfy your desires maybe Obama could implement as opt out condition for those who don't wish to opt in, with an opt in possibility later. Although this would increase costs at the expense of your own personal choice, and many would complain should they become poor and not be able to afford their own health insurance anymore, and demand instant treatment through the govt. system.

I may not understand you wishing to die first before accepting a govt. health plan, but from my point of view it seems an American national health service is the way forward to benefit the majority.

Also if the govt. control has gone too far in your opinion or anybody else's I am interested in hearing your views.


[edit on 13-8-2009 by john124]

reply to post by john124


So you are here asking about opposition, and discussing this bill without having read it? That doesn't make sense to me, you cannot have an educated debate if one side has not taken the time to educate themselves.

You need to read the bill and see what our Govt's idea of a NHS is.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

[edit on 13-8-2009 by KnoxMSP]

Originally posted by john124

Can you still pay not for your own separate healthcare insurance if you wish?

I love the idea of paying for two health plans!! Woo-Hoo!! I get to pay for my private plan and my govt plan. Like that wont reduce my funds and force me into the public plan? Create poverty with taxation?

Does this not benefit the many

It benefits the less than 18% of Americans under 65.. There are 46 million without insurance. Keep in mind that there are an estimated 20 million or so illegal immigrants here as well. I should be paying for Mexico's health care? It also benefits the govt and the politicians and the politicians business buddies as it puts more power and money into their hands.

I understand that you want freedom of choice, but isn't it a little paranoid to fear it in the way you seem to?

History has shown over and over government is not to be trusted. It might be paranoid to see and understand a pattern but it's incredibly short-sighted and foolish to ignore that pattern.

Sometimes the greater good of the many may outweigh your own desires.

Since when has 18% of anything been the "greater good?"

To satisfy your desires maybe Obama could implement as opt out condition for those who don't wish to opt in,

That's all I've ever wanted. It's not possible. The moment people start "opting out" and prove the Sun still rises more and more people will opt out until the govt loses its bankroll. Govt rules by fear and coercion. Always has and always will. Why else would they spend million to collect a few thousand in taxes at gunpoint?

Sorry but being from the UK ,I have to voice my opinion on this matter, I have had to use the NHS a few times over the years, twice for motorcycle accidents and one for 'gentlemans' issues *ahem*, anyway all the times I have had to go to a NHS hospital I had to wait a couple of hours to be seen, no big deal as I wasn't really hurt , but the staff of the NHS are overworked and under appreciated.
I pay my taxes which pay for the NHS but one things that really gets my goat, if the NHS was so bad then why do 'health tourists' come to the UK and get the medical care they want for free? EH? answer me that one .

I agree it ain't the best in the world but it works considering what they have to go through, long hours, double shifts, abuse in the wards, useless injuries like from people who get so drunk they fall over , or from the Health tourists who come over here and abuse the system BECAUSE its free ( to them , but not to those that pay taxes).

The American system is so f##ked up that you need insurance otherwise you don't get seen, our systems f##ked up , everyones systems f##ked up , if we didn't keep funding the war machine then maybe we could ALL actually have a system that is cost efficient to run and professional instead?

If we looked after our own countries people INSTEAD of worrying about other countries issues maybe then it would work, the American system DOES need changing after all you pay your taxes and then STILL have to have insurance to pay for a doctor. Theres TOO MUCH grabbing of people money to fund things like war and politicans second homes. It needs to be updated to something more manageable but not 1000 page document that could contain anything to f##k the citizenry anymore than it already is.

I really shouldn't go to the pub at lunch , I tend to rant .. Sorry..

reply to post by DataWraith


Your ideas of the American healthcare system are wrong.

First off, our waiting lines are far less for care, particularly extended care treatments.

Second off, if you don't have insurance and have no money, there are already public programs that can help get you the care you need. See Medicaid

Third off, if you have no insurance and no money but have an emergency, all hospitals MUST treat you no matter what.

Our insurance is expensive, BUT - that is because of government mandates that drive up insurance costs. It could be much lower. And with HSAs it could be RADICALLY lower.






[edit on 13-8-2009 by mnemeth1]

reply to post by mnemeth1


Then I stand corrected on the US system but stand my ground in defending the NHS . Cheers


[edit on 13/8/09 by DataWraith]

reply to post by FlyersFan

If you follow that logic to the very end it will result in nothing ever getting done about the health care mess in this country...premiums will continue to rise...heath care costs will sky rocket...more people will be unable to keep or buy insurance and the companies who stand to profit from another health care reform failure will continue to reap obscene profits....and the real losers will be the American people.

Is that what you and those who oppose heath care reform want?

At the risk of repeating myself, if the NHS is so bad, why aren't the British posters on this board roundly criticising it? After all, we're an intelligent bunch who see through the "lies", no?

Why are there no campaigns in Britain to scrap it? There's campaigns about the Euro, the Expenses Scandals, the Iraq War, why no 'scrap the evil NHS' campaign? Why is it political suicide to publically voice opinion on the dismantling of the NHS, whether you be Labour or Conservative?

Because, the truth of the matter is, that the NHS is brilliant, has been brilliant and will continue to be brilliant. Thanks. Do what you want in your country. After all, it's your country. Leave our NHS alone. It's far from perfect (what system is?) but it is has done an immense amount of good work for generations, and hopefully will continue to do so far into the future.

The NHS

Originally posted by CRB86
At the risk of repeating myself, if the NHS is so bad, why aren't the British posters on this board roundly criticising it? After all, we're an intelligent bunch who see through the "lies", no?

Why are there no campaigns in Britain to scrap it? There's campaigns about the Euro, the Expenses Scandals, the Iraq War, why no 'scrap the evil NHS' campaign? Why is it political suicide to publically voice opinion on the dismantling of the NHS, whether you be Labour or Conservative?

Because, the truth of the matter is, that the NHS is brilliant, has been brilliant and will continue to be brilliant. Thanks. Do what you want in your country. After all, it's your country. Leave our NHS alone. It's far from perfect (what system is?) but it is has done an immense amount of good work for generations, and hopefully will continue to do so far into the future.

The NHS

If you are fed porridge all your life and have never tasted stake, it is difficult to understand that porridge is not really all that great.

reply to post by john124


All those i've heard making this ludicrous argument are white and middle class. Tells me all i need to know.

BTW, i'm British and think the NHS is fantastic.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by phoenix103]