If man kind is to survive, religion must end

rob,

Mankind has not evolved enough to continue without religion. Our species is still too primative.

I'm sorry to say this, but man moving beyond religion is going to be a slow and somewhat arduous process.

Just teach your kids to live in, deal with and love reality. More and more people are doing just that. But it will be a long time. Smoking will probably stop hurting and killing peole before religion does.

In short; This is not something that can be pushed.

Religion is not the problem.

The problem is we allow religion to become involved with education, politics, science, public policy, foreign policy, economics, and pretty much every part of our system.

Religion is okay, as long as you completely remove it from the parts of our system that require logic and reason to function.

Keep religion in your house and in your church.

Honestly, is it illegal to open an umbrella in doors or walk under a ladder because people think it is bad luck? No, that is ridiculous.

Concerning the OP, if you want religion to end, you need to quite saying "it must end." This is because religious people have the worst victim and martyrdom mentality in the world. If it's to end, it will be by reason, for any mandate would only spread religion like a wildfire!

Your point is very valid. I think that we can begin the process of moving away from religion by starting the process just as the film suggested. The purpose of me posting the topic in the first place was to begin the process by bringing the idea out into the open.

I refuse to debate anyone on the topic because it would justify that religion in my mind is worth debating.
To me religion is over. It is a failed method of comfort that has been commercialized, demonized and fractured to the point where no one really knows what their religion really means.
The point of religion was lost in translation and there are extremely smart educated people who will abandon their own intelligence because it interferes with what religion teaches.
I will not stand for that type of ignorance any longer.

I used to accept that my friends who are religious are entitled to their opinion. The opinion how ever is being taught to their children and it will never end unless some stands up and calls them on it.

So when I hear something crazy like someone say they are afraid of going to hell because they sinned, im going to give them a warning, that I look at a comment like that as crazy talk, and I don't want my family associated with that type of environment.
If everyone who talks crazy religion like that was to be ostracized the human need for companionship would be enough to remove religion from their everyday actions.

Originally posted by Recouper
rob,

Mankind has not evolved enough to continue without religion. Our species is still too primative.

I'm sorry to say this, but man moving beyond religion is going to be a slow and somewhat arduous process.

Just teach your kids to live in, deal with and love reality. More and more people are doing just that. But it will be a long time. Smoking will probably stop hurting and killing peole before religion does.

In short; This is not something that can be pushed.

reply to post by robwerden


I had a laugh at your post's stupidity.

Thanks for making my day.

Ive said this before and I will say it again, you cannot tar everything with the same brush, there are certain religions that are corrupt but just like anything in life there will always be bad eggs.

I think ill make a new post called "For mankind to survive, we must not have air"



[edit on 23-12-2008 by XXXN3O]

I agree. Organized religion has to go and it will. I have no doubts that if humans keep progressing as they always have organized religion will some day not be taken seriously and even considered silly. But will we destroy ourselves before then? It seems like we unconsciously support actions that lead to apocalyptic drama because a few prominent organized religions state that this is how we will end. I personally wouldn’t care if organized religion continued if it was completely separate from every government on this planet. That alone would do the world a massive amount of good. We need to escape this morality mentality that makes people think their religious life style should be forced on others while many do not truly practice their faith to the extent their bible or other religious text instruct s them to.

The most swiftly decreasing religion is Christianity, which I’m happy for but Islamic faith is strong and increasing. The majority of the world is not Christian or Catholic or Mormon and it would seem that if the religions continue to decrease in influence and members, as they steadily have, soon those involved with the churches will be a very tiny minority. But if we follow that same logical deduction Islam around that time may become the most popular religion and will be practiced by an overwhelming majority. While one religious beast is dying another is thriving.

Anti-religion is also a religion.
One's religion is what one puts one's faith in.
Atheism is a religion.
Evolution is a religion.
Government is a religion(especially for the power hungry and those who receive their paychecks and pensions from it).
Putting faith in a tree stump can be a religion.
Putting faith in one's self is a religion.

Be it as it may, No one will escape judgement.

[edit on 23-12-2008 by John Matrix]

Flagged and starred.

This is the 21st century where science is flourishing and new discoveries are made everyday. Why does our civilization continue to latch onto Bronze Age beliefs? I never understood it.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about religion "needing to be abolished" too much; with the advent of newer medicines, and more advanced neural networks that can help us get things done, we will slowly evolve out of 'religion" by the simple method of the religious "people" choosing not to go along with some of the newer things, such as longevity treatments and artificial organs and such; that will lower their survivability and eventually they will be a pigeonholed species of human restricted to certain geographic areas, like palestine/israel/texas etc

And in time those religious communities will becomes relics as they are unable to produce anything worth trading with their neighbours and slowly die to attrition and emmigration.

My only complaint is that they are very noisy and seem to think having "one answer' for everything is "ok"

ironically scientsits are searchign for the "one answer" so far we have come up with string theory and quantum entanglement but it is still being developed and hopefully it will always be developed

[edit on 23-12-2008 by Davood]

[edit on 23-12-2008 by Davood]

The Bible defines religion as follows:

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. - James 1:27 kjv

Princton University defines religion thus:

a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"

also:

an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"

Observe how the two definitions supplied by man strip the Biblical definition of religion away entirely in favor of a belief system that could or may harbor a cruel, immoral, or unconcerned god behind it (although that is conveniently not directly stated).

Thus begin the religious wars.

The way in which man has historically abused religion only underscores the evil intentions of the hearts of those men and women who have done so.

Religion is not to blame. Man is to be blamed both in his abuse of the definition of religion and the application of it. Take away religion and you will still have evil men and you will still have evil in this world.

Imagine a perfect world. Then imagine your next door neighbour runs over your favored daughter who is 8 years old on the very day of the accident. Then imagine that the accident that killed her could have been very easily avoided but unfortunately there are no laws against being human, in this case, being acceptably stupid. In other words, if the neighbour was just the tiniest bit smarter, your daughter would still be alive! And then you notice your neighbour got over it completely 2 days later!

Over time, if you are at all human, you will begin to resent, and then hate your neighbour. Forgiveness will be next to impossible; bitterness will be easy. You even entertain thoughts of murder from time to time but are mature and controlled enough to shake them off. And religion, in this case, had nothing whatsoever to do with things.

Do not tell me that that perfect world will continue for you even for one more hour: it is an offense to reason itself to believe that and the sad part is that reasonable people who feel that something else is to blame fail to get the simple point that man will always be man.

[edit on 23-12-2008 by thisnamenotinuse]

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


I like the Hindu religion with the ritualistic sex orgies. They understand that you can be committed to one mate and still, by mutual consent, take part in religious ritual sex orgies. Sex for them is not evil. As long as it's consensual I agree. If more people were busy playing together there would be less fighting

I think we should keep Hindu's.

(Disclaimer: I do not endorse this action, its merely the most obvious solution to the problem.)

How to get rid of religion? Its not as hard as one might think. Sure, the means would make a few people quail, the "moral right" stand dumbstruck at the audacity, but really its very simple.

You drop a nuclear bomb on the Temple Mount, one large enough to level Jerusalem.

You drop a nuclear bomb on Mecca, during the height of the Hajj.

You drop a nuclear bomb on the Vatican, during a presentation from the Pope.

By doing this, you effectively cut off at the root the worlds three most powerful religions: The Catholic church / Christianity will essentially be decapitated, Islam will lose the heart of many of its practices, and that thrice-damned pile of rock that humans have been fighting over for 4000 years in Israel will finally be leveled.

By doing this during ceremonies where there will be the largest possible congregations of the devout of each individual religion, you remove the most intense and dedicated members of said religion.

After a few decades, you would see the continual decline into oblivion for each one. No further action need be taken, no laws enacted, nothing for the public to cry out about. Just an amputation of the diseased limb, as it were.

But the cost, oh the cost, is freedom from the shackles of primordial ignorance worth that cost? I wouldn't pay it. Its up to future generations to decide whether it is worth it, I suppose...

First, I think I speak for a good deal of others - clearly - when I sigh at the number of stars and flags this post has gotten. Please do not draw attention to such obvious, captivating examples of ignorance as this.

"Oh and guess what, logic tells me I just got a whole bunch of people angry, and they are going to want to debate me on this. So im not going to debate anyone here, by simply not replying to any comments that show disagreement, because you are exactly the type of person who I do not want to associate my self with."

-Could that be any clearer?

On to substance.

War, Policy, and pretty much everything else that effects the growth of man as a species is driven by people who use religion to direct them.

War is driven by religion?
I'll remember that when people discuss World War I.
Assassination? No! Religion.

World War II
Racial intolerance? Propaganda? Result of World War I?
No! Religion.

Vietnam/Korean
A proxy war between two rival economic platforms?
No! Religion.

Gulf War I
A war to sustain oil production, protect allies, and feed the American machine?
No! Religion.

Hell, the Civil War
A war to determine which halves political ideology and way of life would be sustained?
No! Religion.

Wonderful.

Policy is ambiguous, but "all" things that that affect the growth of mankind?

Developing energy sources; Religion!
Researching new computer chips; Religion!
Finding an AIDS vaccine; Religion!
Landing on the moon; Religion!

Terrific. Now when I'm done having an aneurysm all over my carpet, my life will be much more simple.

Religion must stop, end of story. Logic and common sense are the only things you should look to when you are faced with a problem.

People who believe in religion typically believe in the 'logic and common sense' that a God or underlying philosophy exists. Extremists, as you saw and 'disregarded' in that movie aside.

So If you don't like what I have to say, then put me on your ignore list, because that is where you are going as well.

Please do.








BUT THEN.

We follow up this 'no debating, no replying' with.. a reply.

It is amazing how brain washed man kind is into accepting religion.

We have to be brainwashed?
Ah, well, that only makes sense. God knows those wandering Buddhists and Shintoists are a pushy bunch.

I never have

Implying you're somehow 'stronger than the rest of us'?
Even though later in this post you talk about how you _were_ religious for a significant amount of time, whether or not you wholly agreed with it.

I was adopted into a Jewish family, my real birth parents were not Jewish.

I fail to see how the latter is relevant.

My adopted Grandfather was extreme in religion, to the point he started family fights when others in the family did not attend services or fold to his will.

Sounds like an excellent example of you having a 'beef' with religion. Parental figures, or close family figures in general are extremely influential on young children, especially adoptees.

I dropped out of hebrew school after only 1 month because I asked to many questions the instructor would not answer. My grand father forced the entire family to fly to Israel when I turned 13 to have my bar mitzvah performed at the wailing wall.

I'm unaware you, as a child, can have the 'decision' to drop out, unless you're saying the school kicked you out. And typically religious schools do not kick out for asking questions.

While in Israel he forced me to tour the country and learn about the Jews history .

Now I feel just awful that your grandfather would subject you to traveling a beautiful, historic, and religiously fundamental land. Even as an atheist, all of those reasons should raise interest.

When he died, he divided his money unfairly and left me less because I was not entirely Jewish.

More signs of you having a vendetta against religion.

As a Jew I grew up being made fun of, and it even continues as an adult. If I leave exactly a 15% tip after a dinner out, I get called a jew for not tipping bigger.

Ditto. Not that this in anyway describes how religion is 'evil'. Just that you were made fun of by immature folk. Whooptie.

So I gave up all religion. I gave it up because of how it affected my everyday life. I never wanted it, and it was forced on me and then followed me.

"it was forced on me" - Like your demand to abolish religion and not listen to any opposing argument?
Terrific. Simply terrific.

I stopped looking for god when I was old enough to ask questions about where god is. I wanted proof and never got it.

Unfortunate. But to each their own.

In the film, Bill pointed out the 16% of Americans don't believe in religion. He also said, that that 16% of us who are against religion, need to stand up and tell the world we are not going to take it any longer, and the religion in policy must end.

Not only is that statistic incorrect - and you, having denounced his methods of exaggerating the issue should know that - But following his logic, all the Catholics of the world should unite and tell the rest of the world they're not putting up with non-Catholicism any more. Ditto for Scientologists, Mormons, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc.

So that is what im doing. Im standing up and saying stop religion. I will now start to protest my government and join my voice to anyone else who feels the same as I do.
I stand firm on my opening post.

Good for you.
A sign democracy is alive and well.

Oh wait? Democracy is a force of growth for the world!
Must be the darn religion impeding your rights and growth again.

Somehow.

reply to post by thisnamenotinuse

Take away religion and you will still have man and you will still have evil in this world.

I personally do not want religion to go away because it is “evil” and I agree that man does bad things to good things, to put it simply. However organized religion fuels a movement based on false assumptions outdated ideals and tries to force society as a whole to believe in these false assumptions and outdated ideals as well. Eventually through knowledge and logic humans will evolve and progress as they always have and will not need religion to “parent” them and they will realize the illogical constructs of most religion. Note that I am not calling the belief in God an illogical concept, I’m exclusively referring to organized religion and the practice of it.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
(Disclaimer: I do not endorse this action, its merely the most obvious solution to the problem.)

How to get rid of religion? Its not as hard as one might think. Sure, the means would make a few people quail, the "moral right" stand dumbstruck at the audacity, but really its very simple.

You drop a nuclear bomb on the Temple Mount, one large enough to level Jerusalem.

You drop a nuclear bomb on Mecca, during the height of the Hajj.

You drop a nuclear bomb on the Vatican, during a presentation from the Pope.

By doing this, you effectively cut off at the root the worlds three most powerful religions: The Catholic church / Christianity will essentially be decapitated, Islam will lose the heart of many of its practices, and that thrice-damned pile of rock that humans have been fighting over for 4000 years in Israel will finally be leveled.

By doing this during ceremonies where there will be the largest possible congregations of the devout of each individual religion, you remove the most intense and dedicated members of said religion.

After a few decades, you would see the continual decline into oblivion for each one. No further action need be taken, no laws enacted, nothing for the public to cry out about. Just an amputation of the diseased limb, as it were.

But the cost, oh the cost, is freedom from the shackles of primordial ignorance worth that cost? I wouldn't pay it. Its up to future generations to decide whether it is worth it, I suppose...

That is counter intuitive to the point im making.
Religion causes suffering, the point is to stop suffering.
By using words and not bombs we can accomplish more faster.

If you pay it forward that you no longer accept religion as a acceptable part of society, and get others to do the same, then the ones who do still accept religion will be alone. No one wants to be alone, and they will either change or be alone till they die of natural causes. We can not kill religion, it must dissolve on its own by way of majority opinion.

reply to post by Iblis

War is driven by religion?

Didn’t read the rest of your post but this stuck out to me. I think the OP meant war in a general since, the war that rages in the Middle East and past wars that have been fueled by religion. Religion has certainly played a part in war and different meanings of war (hostilities, confrontation, combat, warfare, conflict) through out our history. There is no need to dismiss that while defending religion, it makes the rest of your point moot.

I forgot the most important one: Democracy is a religion.

The Bottom Line: man is incurably religious.
Get rid of mankind and you get rid of religion.
That would have to be your prime directive.
It's the only way.

Death to all will save the enviroment.

reply to post by robwerden

Oh and guess what, logic tells me I just got a whole bunch of people angry, and they are going to want to debate me on this. So im not going to debate anyone here, by simply not replying to any comments that show disagreement, because you are exactly the type of person who I do not want to associate my self with. So If you don't like what I have to say, then put me on your ignore list, because that is where you are going as well.

I have seen some silly statements in my time but the above is by far, the most senseless I have ever seen.

The OP chooses to express his/her opinions and make them known to others on a forum that prides itself on debating BOTH sides of an argument or statement. To threaten any and all those who wish to put their opposing views across on an OPEN forum clearly does not understand the philosophy of alternative views that ATS stands for. May I remind the OP that this is NOT a recruitment for those who beleive in your one sided arguments but one that debates in a civil manner, the pro's and cons of such views or opinions expressed.

By all means add me to your ignore list, for I surely object to your OP.

reply to post by robwerden

Religion doesn't have to go away it just needs to change; and it is. Someday in the not to distant future, Spirituality will replace Religion and we will return to "common sense" and "logic". D

You guys are a bunch of nuts.

Major Premise: Every person requires a substantiated belief to sustain psychological integrity.

Minor Premise: Religions claim to provide just such a substantiated belief.

Conclusion: Religion is necessary to the global collective sanity.

The major premise is not controvertible, which is the definition of science. Soooo... if any of you nihilists want to argue, get off the tube and read something less subjective than Freud and Marx.