Where is the connection?

Originally posted by wu kung
Many people are gonna say things like, when you get to the 33rd degree of Masonry, you have to do all this devil stuff and rebuke Christ and a whole bunch of nonsense.
Of course, they have no idea what they're talking about.

I havn't read that here at ATS, but I know Alex Jones film makes that claim. Some people that think nefarious things go on when they see things like rituals with robed figures and mock human sacrifices. Some do believe these to be occult. Maybe its just a good old play of a mock human sacrifice in front of a 40 foot owl. Hard to know.

I would guess this is where some people get the ideas you mention. Impossible to really know, but this film of the ritual inside the bohemian grove is interesting.



www.youtube.com...

No way to know if these are just like masonic rituals or are the same, the power and wealth of the people at the Bohemian Grove make it an interesting topic though.

I forget the name of the clasic tune being played, I remember it from when i was a child. "Witches in the pumpkin patch" but I know it to be something else.

found someone else who remembers it
www.conradaskland.com...
In The Hall of the Mountain King - In first grade I saw a video of Grieg’s “In The Hall of the Mountain King” (which you might not know by the name, but would certainly know it once you heard it) - but they had a chorus singing the melody to “Witches in the Pumpkin Patch” and the witches danced around in a field. Very creepy. I think the adults who made it thought it was supposed to be cute - well, not to this first grader.

[edit on 10-10-2007 by Redge777]

reply to post by Redge777


Yeah, I've seen that film too.
Pretty freaky if you ask me.

But, as far as I know, it has nothing to do with Masonry.

It is some weird stuff though.

reply to post by Redge777


i am under the impression that the bohemian grove, if anything, is more of an "Illuminati" ceremony then a Freemason ceremony

and i think thats where a lot of people seemed to get confused

heck i'm not even sure is the bohemian grove ceremony has any relationship with the modern "Illuminati" but i have a feeling it does

reply to post by The Phantom


I'm inclined to agree.
Well, I guess the search continues.

reply to post by wu kung



yea I don't know of any masonic connection, it is usually NWO and stuff like that. I don't know all the differnt secret people

reply to post by Redge777


Me either.
All I know is the stories I've heard/read about on the internet and from books and such.
Many of the connections seem well researched, but some of it just seems like delusional rantings.
But, I guess I'm no expert on the subject, because sometimes the crazier the story, the closer to reality it really is.

That's why I'm here, I guess.
The search for truth and so forth.

freemasonry is not linked to bohemian grove in any way, shape or form - other than they are both associated with secrecy, and status.

The biggest difference is that Bohemian Grove is an invite-only club, and even within the club members are divided by class and status (just on a much different scale).

Freemasonry is restricted from inviting members (although i've seen posts on ATS that claim otherwise). One of the biggest themes of freemasonry is the fact that all master masons are of the same status, it does not go beyond that.

As for the rituals of both Freemasonry and Bohemian Grove - of course, anyone who is uptight and strict with their religion (guessing fundamentalist Christianity here) will claim that ANY ritual of ANY religion or reason is evil, and for nefarious reasons.

When I used to live in the area, I saw a live broadcasting of Alex Jones where he admitted that he was never religious, and the only reason he took a side (christianity) was because he saw that as the polar opposite to what these rituals were about. The reason one would think that, is again because Christianity preaches that other religions are false, and therefore works of the devil.

In my opinion, these rituals are such a non-issue, it distracts the real concerns people should have. Most of these rituals are passed down from tradition and adapted from old druid, celtic and other pagan ceremonies. Perhaps because some of the elite feel as though it connects them to their bloodlines or something. Maybe some really do see it as black magic, or some type of empowerment.

Unless you are also preaching Christianity - I don't see the big deal, and we should all focus on the policies being set and deals being negotiated, in not just bohemian grove, but behind any closed door at all.

Policy should be transparent, and that is the opposite of what secret societies are about.

I agree, we should have transperancy, but I just came from a thread that mentioned a CIA plane with 5 tons of drugs on it. Then linked to a similiar event revolving around Tom Delay.

We are so so so so so far from transparency, it is rediculous. We have to start moving in that direction. We should bite the bullet, accept a little bit of loss of security by "secrets" being revealed and clean up this mess. It seems even worse then imagined day after day.

Originally posted by OrionStars
Unfortunately, the history of Freemasonry isn't as benign as you have chosen to paint it.

Actually I didn't even talk about the history of freemasonry. I was answering some comments you had made, mostly about Pike. Freemasonry was around a long time before Mr Pike appeared on the scene.

Once it transitioned from a mason craft(artisian) trade union, the occult, coupled with secrecy and occult rituals, turned Freemasonry a highly non-benign organization.

I'd be interested in your sources for this. There's nothing occult about freemasonry, unless you are referring to the original meaning of occult as "hidden", in which case it's about as occult as my children playing 'hide and seek'.

The practice of racism and sectarianism caused a great deal of bloodshed on a world basis.

What racism? What sectarianism? What bloodshed on a global level? Local freemasonry is a product of its local environment. Freemasonry in the Deep South (for example) is no more racist than the churches. I can't come up with a good argument against self-segregation, can you?

Now about this bloodshed...

The US was not excluded from these malevolent actions by Freemasons of the lower and upper levels. One of the most malevolent groups to arise directly from Freemasonry was the KKK.

Source? Who told you that? I suppose this is the old "a freemason did X or Y so the whole organization is Evil" routine. What ever happened to the "a freemason did X or Y so the whole organization is Good" routine. I preferred that one, although they are both equally ridiculous.

Freemasonry a highly secret society.

Which aspect of freemasonry is secret? Other than the 'modes of recognition' I think you'll be hard pressed to find one.

Albert Pike's book became the heart of 32nd degree and up Freemasonry.

Morals and Dogma became extremely popular within the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite. Thats it. No-ones even heard of him in England, for example. Where I come from he is less influential than writers such as Bernard Jones, Fred Pick, Harry Carr, John Hamill or even the Revd. Neville Barker Cryer. Have you heard of or read any of these writers? Didn't think so.

The rituals practiced at the lower or highest levels will not be found in the Bible. If they are, please point them out.

Of course they're not, you Silly Billy. But the content of the ritual is. And what do you mean by lower and higher levels? There is no such distinction within freemasonry.

I know what transpired with Albert Pike in Arkansas... blah blah

No you don't. You have no idea. Read up on it pal. Do a search on ATS - this topic has been covered a hundred times already

Top level means 32nd degree Freemasonry and higher.

Oh REALLY!!!. And where did you get this little gem from? There are some obvious problems with this statement:
1. Freemasonry only has 3 degrees
2. There are several side orders which go up to 32 degrees - which one are you referring to?
3. The side orders are subservient to Craft masonry, not the other way around.
If you are going to throw out such statements be prepared to back them up.

Freemasonry is indeed a part of the web of world power and wealth run by the Establishment.

Another cracker. A statement posed a Fact which has absolutely no basis in reality. A Fantasy, if you will. If you really truly believe this stuff, please tell me why. I can't wait to learn how you reached this conclusion, as it must have been based on large amounts of evidence in order for you to state it as FACT.

Luciferian is, as the name implies, worship of Lucifer. Replacement of Jesus and God by Lucifer. The highest level leaders have a ritual for this for every new 32nd degree initiate into the higher order of Freemasons.

Could you point me towards this ritual of which you speak so I can see for myself how you reached this conclusion?

I am not of any religion. My information is based on life in Arkansas and extensive academic study of all secret societies.

Tell me about this 'extensive' research. No really. Because it sounds like you have wasted an awful lot of time and effort on a fallacious freemasonic fantasy.

I have probably heard just about every excuse given by Freemasons to deny the reality of what actually occurs inside Freemasonry temples. I did not see any new denials.

I have never seen or heard a freemason deny the reality of what goes on inside a masonic lodge. What I have seen a lot of, though, is people who have never set foot inside a masonic lodge apparently knowing more about it than the freemasons of many years standing. Go figure!

You're not one of those now are you, OrionStars?

[edit on 10/10/07 by Trinityman]

Many of the views expressed in the post above are mainstream anti-masonry thought. Although masons say this has no bearing there is some things written that allude to activities that are not mainstream and lead people to make these claims.

But nobody knows, because it is secret. But that secrecy also lets us say we don't know if all those claims are true.

I agree blaming masons for KKK and such does not take in the cultural attitudes of the time, but when we see secret rituals like at the bohemian grove, you have to admit it is common to wonder what other organizations do in there secret rituals.

I find it not reasonable for a mason to think we should just accept the secrecy is benign when secrecy has been used to protect secrets over history over and over.

I am not making conclusions, I am only pointing out how the issue continues to remain unresolved in many peoples minds.

Originally posted by Redge777
I agree blaming masons for KKK and such does not take in the cultural attitudes of the time, but when we see secret rituals like at the bohemian grove, you have to admit it is common to wonder what other organizations do in there secret rituals.

I find it not reasonable for a mason to think we should just accept the secrecy is benign when secrecy has been used to protect secrets over history over and over.

I am not making conclusions, I am only pointing out how the issue continues to remain unresolved in many peoples minds.

I know we are talking 'secrecy' on the other thread, but I just wanted to point out that you could extend this thought to wondering what anyone does at any time that you aren't there or aren't looking!

Not liking one ritual shouldn't prejudice you against others, and even if we accept that the Bohemian Grove ritual is 'evil' (which I don't, BTW) it would be crazy to tar The Changing of the Guard, the Marriage Ceremony, and even the Phantom of the Opera with the same brush.

Actually, I'm not even sure what the difference is between a 'ritual' and a 'play'.

reply to post by Trinityman


I discuss your orders added burden of legacy in other thread. As far as Bohemian, that is a belief issue. I understand you believe differently, just understand that some see it as really bad occult. I mean top level occult. But it is belief based, it freaks some Christians out, it is hard to explain if you do not see it the same way, but it is not just a passing thought, it is a radiation of evil. But it is belief.

I went to wiki to get definitions of ritual I thought it was appropriate.
A ritual is a set of actions, often thought to have symbolic value, the performance of which is usually prescribed by a religion or by the traditions of a community
Plays are also full of symbolism, but notice the ritual of the grove is actually a calling for a spirit to remove the cares(many say conscience) of the actions of the preceding year. A play is not meant to be a soul interaction with a spirit.

If in a mason order a group treated a ceremony as just fun, people get upset, it is meant to be serious, not just a play.

Marriage, is a vow of love and fidelity before God(assuming Christian) See how it is asking for blessing from a spiritual force, it is a ritual.

Baptism is a ritual.

And mock human sacrifice in front of a 40 foot owl is a ritual.

reply to post by Redge777


Uh, isn't drinking the wine and eating the cracker (whatever it's called) in church a ritual?
And uh, doesn't it symbolize the body and blood of Christ?
So, let me get this straight, in church, people engage in a ritual that is symbolic of cannibalism?

Now, I'm not fully educated in Christian/Catholic rules and lore and such (and I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight), but isn't that a bizarre ritual?

In a lot of ways, that's a lot worse than a sacrifice.

Originally posted by wu kung
reply to post by Redge777

 

Uh, isn't drinking the wine and eating the cracker (whatever it's called) in church a ritual?
And uh, doesn't it symbolize the body and blood of Christ?
So, let me get this straight, in church, people engage in a ritual that is symbolic of cannibalism?

It is a ritual, and none of it is secret, that way you have the ability to see it and question it. You can even ask questions such as you have.

It is in the spirit, not in the body. I without claiming to to have the only interpretation of it, can speak a little about it because it is not secret. If I am wrong, or others have ideas of its meaning to them, they can speak on it also, for none of it is secret.

Just like moses was sent manna from heaven, God sent his spirit as Jesus Christ, that same spirit is in us if we choose to accept it and be one with the body of Christ. It is in remembrance of the gift, love, and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[edit on 11-10-2007 by Redge777]

is there really a need to turn this into another religious thread? Let's just keep JC and his pops out of this one, just once.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Actually, I'm not even sure what the difference is between a 'ritual' and a 'play'.

i believe it's simple - a play is for those observing, a ritual is for those taking part.

Originally posted by scientist
is there really a need to turn this into another religious thread? Let's just keep JC and his pops out of this one, just once.

i believe it's simple - a play is for those observing, a ritual is for those taking part.

Well Keeping religious beliefs out of it assumes that those that believe there are religious connotations to the Illuminati can not respond. Many people look at these things through a religious lens.

Nice comment on ritual, well said.

The Illuminati are "The Enlightened Ones"

On behalf of the Galactic Confederation they manage and control this Games-Planet turned Prison-Planet. They are in control of the organizations that control society, the most powerful Illuminati-branches being: Secret Societies, Religions, Political Systems (all from left to right wing), Media, Intelligence Agencies, Bankers, Royal Families.

They are accused of "conspiracy", but they are only doing their job of keeping the planet in a state it is meant to be. Any soul incarnating on this planet agrees to enter a prison planet in order to play the game of being caught and trying to get out. Without the Illuminati, the game couldnt be played. The Old and experienced souls incarnate as Illuminati, the children-souls incarnate as the ignorant masses. The Elite may appear to be evil but is highly compassionate and benevolent.

Some of the Methods used to keep this Planet limited to the intended game:

Fear-Induction
Enemy-Creation
Divide and Rule
The Banking System
Mind Control
Media-Manipulation
Negativity-Focus
Attention-Diversion
Belief-Systems

Escaping the matrix happens naturally after death (not suicide, natural death. Suicide only means one has to return to the game). It is in the afterlife that it will be judged how well the game was played.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
but they are only doing their job of keeping the planet in a state it is meant to be.

Assuming they have the right ideas. This is a rational of the elite, I only question if they deserve that status. They would say yes, 90% in the prison planet might say no, hence the methods of control you mentioned.

Furthermore, who decides if power should be in the hands of 100, 1000, a million or half the people. How the elite is structured is a debatable topic also. Although they use your methods mentioned to control that debate.

reply to post by Redge777


My whole last post was actually satire (joke) Redge. But lets pretend for a moment that it wasnt...lets pretend thats the way things were created. Then your counter-argument still wouldnt hold up, since it said that every soul agreed to the game rules.

Now, as for you and your posts in general: You go from thread to thread making claims about freemasonry...an organization you are not a member of, an organization whos rooms you have never entered, people you dont personally know. And you make the impression that you know more about the organization than the people who are in it.

Counter-evidence to your claims are presented, you shrug them off. Or you might admit to one or two things, only to continue posting the same stuff in other threads or on other days.

Therefore, once and for all:

Where is your specific evidence (not proof, but at least evidence) that freemasonry as a whole, has commited evil acts? (exceptions: black sheep such as P2).

What motivates you to jump from thread to thread pointing out that freemsonry is evil?

What are some of the "secrets" freemasonry is supposed to be hiding? (and dont quote albert pike again, please. Give specific secrets that have been uncovered....I would suppose that in the many hundred years of its existence, some stuff has been uncovered).

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Where is your specific evidence (not proof, but at least evidence) that freemasonry as a whole, has commited evil acts? (exceptions: black sheep such as P2).

my only evidence of anything existing, is the historical patterns of the reasons and the results of secrecy. Most historical groups that used secrecy used those reasons to protect themselves against the rest of society, or other groups they considered threats.

I really just posted my initial feelings on secrecy then after that, I responded to things that were said. I think most of my comments were appropriate, and responded to appropriately.

As far as specific acts, I will take all groups that have ever in history used secrecy, add all there actions together divide them by the total number of groups, and come up with a number. That number is the average evil acts of any one secret groups. I can't list actual things, those are secret, so I have to go with historical patterns.

This is not fair, nor accurate, but considering I do not know, I can only look at patterns.

[edit on 11-10-2007 by Redge777]

[edit on 11-10-2007 by Redge777]