Roswell Smoking Gun? - Ramey Message

Originally posted by skyeagle409

Originally posted by SuicideVirus

The military has been known to make mistakes, and the flying disc press release was a doozy. But in no way does that mistake increase the chance that the "cover-up" involved a flying disc and aliens.

It wasn't a mistake because both Colonel Blanchard and Marcel were later promoted and in the military, you can't expect a promotion over serious errors, especially in those days..

When I suggested it was a "doozy," I guess I meant in retrospect. At the time, nobody seemed to think it amounted to much of anything, good or bad. It actually proved so uneventful that no mention of it was ever made in Marcel's performance evaluation that was done a month later. On the other hand, he didn't receive any special mention on his evaluation of the good work he did handling a difficult classified situation, either. Actually, Marcel's record is one of a standard kind of plodding officer, doing okay work but not outstanding, crawling slowly up pay grades, grinding out his years until retirement. The Roswell thing didn't seem to affect his career one way or another. So apparently the Army/Air Force never really considered the recovery of an alien space ship to be any big deal.

Of the hundreds of people who were working at the base at the time, only a few were even aware of the press release event, and the majority either thought or still think the whole alien thing is an embarassment.

Originally posted by SuicideVirus
Of the hundreds of people who were working at the base at the time, only a few were even aware of the press release event, and the majority either thought or still think the whole alien thing is an embarassment.

Purely out of interest - where I can read that for myself? Please supply some evidence that supports this. I'm not attacking you, I'm just interested to see where on record it is stated that the majority thought it was an embarassment.

Now, what did Stanton Friedman say about what Easley's daughter and what she told him

Second hand again, still no witnesses to alien bodies. sorry

you think its credible people adding testimony after the primary witness has died and cant confirm it? ....give me a frickin break.

suicide virus is right, 509th bomb group consider it an embarassement which detracts from the real work they were doing there. And of course in all the roswell books you never here from all the people at the time that said nothing unusual happend.

After 60 years not one single shred of evidence has been produced. All of the stuff like MJ12 documents faked. The burden of proof remains on the believers.


[edit on 9-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101
suicide virus is right, 509th bomb group consider it an embarassement which detracts from the real work they were doing there.

Please show me where this is stated? I would like to read it, otherwise I am just trusting your own second-hand version of opinions.

You're ready to decry any form of second-hand evidence that other people offer, so how about some first-hand evidence to support your own claim?

Thanks.

tezzajw the roswell incindent has a grand total of around 40 witnesses. Compared to the thousands who would have potentialy noticed any unusual activity on the base its nothing.

I assume youve heard about the mythical nurse who helped with the bodies at the base. She cant be found but they did find the cheif medical officer from the base Lorenzo Kimball and he said nothing of that nature occured. 2 staff from the base hospital were also found and they dont recall any "emergency" on the base.

But roswelians will then fall back on their non-falsifiable coverup theory. Sheridan Cavitt who accompanied marcel to retrieve the debris said it was was nothing out of the ordinary " bamboo sticks, burnt rubber, foil" again he is cited as a cover up collaborator. As are the 100 military police who supposedly set up the cordon.

im sorry i cant find quotes from the 509, i saw some of them interviewed on a bbc documentary- but again they will be accused of a coverup.

Originally posted by yeti101
im sorry i cant find quotes from the 509, i saw some of them interviewed on a bbc documentary- but again they will be accused of a coverup.

That's cool. You can't find any quotes, so your statement about the majority of the 509th being embarrassed by the incident remains unsupported. You're probably relying on second-hand testimony, which you are first to accuse other people of doing.

I've read a few books on Roswell, so I know the basic plot according to Randle and Friedman and how they differ. I don't have a photographic memory and I don't claim to be an expert. I was wanting to read the quotes from the 509th that you can't seem to find to help me understand the incident.

The mythical nurse has nothing to do with you providing quotes from the majority of the 509th group proving that they were embarrassed. Also, showing the interviews of SOME 509th members being embarrassed does not prove that a 'majority' of them were. I'd need to see first-hand interviews with at least more than half the members of the 509th to prove that they were embarrassed. Your claim can't be supported.

[edit on 9-6-2007 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by yeti101
All of the stuff like MJ12 documents faked.

I'm also wondering on what basis you believe that the MJ12 papers were faked?

What convinced you that the papers were fake, please show me the link or other evidence that supports the papers being fake. I'm interested to read about it.

The truman signature on the MJ12 memo is a duplicate of signature on a letter to Vannevar Bush on October 1, 1947. No one signs his or her signature the exact same way every time.

the signature was shown to be 3.6% larger which equates to it being xerox copied 2 or 3 times depending on the machine. It also appears to be typed on a 1960s typewriter not 1940s

scroll down a bit on this page for more www.csicop.org...

[edit on 9-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by SuicideVirus
When I suggested it was a "doozy," I guess I meant in retrospect. At the time, nobody seemed to think it amounted to much of anything, good or bad. It actually proved so uneventful that no mention of it was ever made in Marcel's performance evaluation that was done a month later.

With a full blown military cover-up in progress, nothing would have been mentioned in his records. The Roswell event wasn't uneventful for you can look at the headlines and the fact that "Mac" Brazel was taken into military custody for a whole week. That indicates that something extraordinary was taking place. After Brazel was released from custody, he told a completely different story than the one he told before the military took him away. That fact was noted by Frank Joyce, the person who interviewed Brazel.

On the other hand, he didn't receive any special mention on his evaluation of the good work he did handling a difficult classified situation, either. Actually, Marcel's record is one of a standard kind of plodding officer, doing okay work but not outstanding, crawling slowly up pay grades, grinding out his years until retirement. The Roswell thing didn't seem to affect his career one way or another. So apparently the Army/Air Force never really considered the recovery of an alien space ship to be any big deal.

Actually, it was a big deal considering the actions the military took afterwards. Then, there was their 1994 and 1997 Roswell reports and look how far the Air Force went in order to continue the Roswell cover-up to this very day.

Of the hundreds of people who were working at the base at the time, only a few were even aware of the press release event, and the majority either thought or still think the whole alien thing is an embarassment.

I can tell you that even on secret airbases, there are many military and civillian personnel possessing top secret clearances who are totally unaware of what is going on around them, even unaware of certain classified aircraft stationed on their bases if they are not directly involved with that aircraft. For an example, before a classified aircraft is brought out of its hangar, all personnel not connected to that project must enter windowless buildings or draw window shades and remained there until the aircraft is no longer in sight.

In the military, you can possess a top secret clearance but that doesn't mean you have access to every classified project on that base. You must have a need-to-know in order to gain access to classified material.

Originally posted by yeti101
But roswelians will then fall back on their non-falsifiable coverup theory. Sheridan Cavitt who accompanied marcel to retrieve the debris said it was was nothing out of the ordinary " bamboo sticks, burnt rubber, foil" again he is cited as a cover up collaborator.

It shouldn't be of any mystery since Sheridan Cavitt has been caught red-handed lying time after time after time. Now, it has got to the point that researchers won't touch Cavitt with a ten-foot pole.

Originally posted by yeti101
you think its credible people adding testimony after the primary witness has died and cant confirm it? ....give me a frickin break.

Yes, they are credible people and you only have to look at the actions of the Air Force on the Roswell incident and its Roswell cover-up that continues on to this very day and Air Force's cover-up has been noted by Congressman Steven Schiff and other Roswell researchers as well.

suicide virus is right, 509th bomb group consider it an embarassement which detracts from the real work they were doing there.

If you look at the real work conducted by scientist there, you would have noted that those scientist have stated for the record that the flying saucers they were tracking and observing overhead were those of extraterrestrial beings. In other words, there were flying saucers all over the skies over the Roswell area before, and after the crash. Here is just one small sample of what was going on above the area.

LIFE Magazine
Scientist Track Flying Saucers Over New Mexico

A group of five technicians under the general supervision of J. Gordon Vaeth, an aeronautical engineer employed by the Office of Naval Research, were preparing to launch a Skyhook balloon near Arrey, N. Mex. A small balloon was sent up first to check the weather. Charles B. Moore Jr., an aerologist of General Mills Inc. (pioneers in cosmic ray research) was tracking the weather balloon through a theodolite -- a 25-power telescopic instrument, which gives degrees of azimuth and elevation (horizontal and vertical position) for any object it is sighted on.

At 10:30 a.m. Moore leaned back from the theodolite to glance at the balloon with his naked eye. Suddenly he saw a whitish elliptical object, apparently much higher than the balloon, and moving, in the opposite direction. At once he picked the object up in his theodolite at 45 degrees of elevation and 210 degrees of azimuth, and tracked it east at the phenomenal rate of 5 d of azimuth-change per second as it dropped swiftly to an elevation of 25 d. The Object appeared to be an ellipsoid roughly two and a half times as long as it was wide.

Suddenly it swung abruptly upward and rushed out of sight in a few seconds. Moore had tracked it for about 60 seconds altogether. The other members of his crew confirmed his report. No sound was heard, no vapor trail was seen. The object, according to rough estimations by Moore and his colleagues, was about 56 miles above the earth, 100 feet long and was traveling at seven miles per second.

What we have here, are documented evidence by the scientist themselves that extraterrestrial flying saucers were in fact, overflying the Roswell area and the flying saucers were observed before, and after the Roswell incident hit the newspapers. No wonder the Air Force has been keeping that fact a secret after all of these years.

After 60 years not one single shred of evidence has been produced. All of the stuff like MJ12 documents faked. The burden of proof remains on the believers.

We have four stories relating to the Roswell incident and only the original saucer recovery story continue to hold water since the other three cover-up stories of the Air Force have already been proven false, so why is the Air Force trying so hard to continue on with the cover-up of the Roswell incident to this very day?

There is a valid reason why the Roswell cover-up remains in force today.


[edit on 9-6-2007 by skyeagle409]

Originally posted by yeti101
www.csicop.org...

I don't think that you want to use CSICOP as a reference. I took CSICOP apart as I did Tim Printy because of the false information that CSICOP has put out. A case in point is how CSICOP made themselves the laughing stock in the eyes of the world over the Japan Airlines/UFO incident of 1986.

On that incident regarding the Japanese B-747, the folks of CSICOP posted false information and got caught red-handed. There were other times I have had to correct CSICOP on other issues as well. So it is wise not to use CSICOP as a reference and besides, CSICOP still claims that Project Mogul balloon flight #4 was responsible for the Roswell incident but if CSICOP had done its homework and check the Mogul balloon records, it would have found that there were no Project Mogul balloon flight #4.

To sum it up, CSICOP is not a credible source to use when it comes to the Roswell incident and UFOs.

To sum it up, CSICOP is not a credible source to use when it comes to the Roswell incident and UFOs.

only becuase it deosnt agree with your alien spaceship theory. Whats 86 got to do with roswell? nobody is 100% accurate on evrything just look at all the roswell books that contradict each other.

they sent the mj12 documents to an independant examiner. They did not produce the results themselves. Are you saying the mj12 documents are real? lol

personally i dont agree with every conclusion csicop make, but on mj12 the case is cast iron.

if you dont like csicop how about NARA- national archives & record administration who found numerous problems with the Cutler mj12 document. Also concluding it to be bogus.

[edit on 9-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101
[only becuase it deosnt agree with your alien spaceship theory. Whats 86 got to do with roswell? nobody is 100% accurate on evrything just look at all the roswell books that contradict each other.

Because the magnitude of CSICOP's errors on the 1986 JAL/UFO incident points to a trend that extends into the Roswell incident.

As in the 1986 incident, CSICOP never bothered to check any records pertaining to Project Mogul balloon flight operations. Had CSICOP done so, it would have found that the the Air Force's 1994 story on Project Mogul balloon train #4 was false because there were no Project Mogul ballloon flight #4 on June 4, 1994.

they sent the mj12 documents to an independant examiner. They did not produce the results themselves. Are you saying the mj12 documents are real? lol.personally i dont agree with every conclusion csicop make, but on mj12 the case is cast iron.

Personally, I am not into the MJ-12 documents that much, so I haven't been following on what has been going on with them lately, but I am familiar with the folks listed and was surprised to see Donald Menzel's name on the list.

i have no doubt it was balloon debris of some kind just look at these other reports of "flying disks" they sound alot like radar reflectors to me. www.project1947.com...

[edit on 10-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101
i have no doubt it was balloon debris of some kind just look at these other reports of "flying disks" they sound alot like radar reflectors to me. www.project1947.com...

As noted before, the debris in the photos was not recovered by Marcel and was placed there for no other purpose than for a cover-up and the cover story was released to the press whereas the press took the bait and said that the object was a weather balloon but in 1994, the Air Force said it wasn't a weather balloon after all.

There was no way any balloon could have created the kind of debris field described by those involved and no one in the military would have released such a sensational story over balsa wood and tin foil.

So, the Air Force dropped its claim that a weather balloon was involved and what you have in the photos are remains from a weather balloon and that backs the statements of Dubose and Marcel that the material in the photos was placed there for the purpose of a cover-up, in effect, acknowledging that the material was not recovered on the Foster ranch, which underlines the message suggesting that a weather balloon device be used as a cover-up.



Here's a quote from Mac Brazel, who had recovered weather balloons before.

"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon,"

To further add, the debris recovered by Marcel exhibited properties that exclude balloons, aircraft and rockets.


To sum it all up:

* Statements from Marcel and Dubose indicate the debris in the Roswell photos are a fake and was placed there as a cover-up.

* An official message suggest that a weather balloon device be used as a means of a cover-up.

* The Air Force dropped its claim that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident yet the material in the photos are clearly those of a weather balloon, in other words, placed there for the cover-up.

* Mac Brazel, the person who initially found the debris and who recovered weather balloons before, said that what he had found was not a weather balloon, and his statment underlines the point that the weather balloon remains in the photos were not recovered by Marcel on the Foster ranch, which only serves to highlight the Roswell cover-up..


[edit on 10-6-2007 by skyeagle409]

when you have some evidence of a crashed spaceship or any alien witnesses let me know.


[edit on 10-6-2007 by yeti101]

Originally posted by yeti101
when you have some evidence of a crashed spaceship or any alien witnesses let me know.


[edit on 10-6-2007 by yeti101]

I've been following this thread and judging by the line of arguments by "yeti101", he is almost undoubtedly none other than the debunker who has also previously posted as "Johnny His M.O. is the usual one of many debunkers that the testimony of witnesses who have come forward in more recent times do not constitute "evidence." He also does a lot of censorship of material on Wikipedia. More on this soon.

But regarding his repeated spurious claim that there are no first-hand witnesses to a crashed spacecraft or aliens, I suggest everybody get a hold of the new book coming out right now by Tom Carey and Don Schmitt titled "Witness to Roswell" which lists a number of such witnesses, with a partial synopsis of testimony having just gone up on the Wikipedia article on Roswell witnesses (before "Canada Jack" probably deletes them to prevent them being read during the 60th anniversy of Roswell):

en.wikipedia.org...

There are literally several dozen first, second, and third-hand witnesses listed there. Here are just the first-hand witnesses (mainly from the Carey and Schmitt book):

*According to Brazel’s neighbor Loretta Proctor, her 7-year old son Timothy or "Dee" was with Brazel when he first discovered the debris field. But he was also with Brazel when he discovered something else at another site 2-1/2 miles to the east that left him deeply traumatized for the rest of his life. He never told her exactly what he saw there but did take her to the location in 1994 saying, "Here is where Mack found something else." Dee Proctor would also duck all attempts at interview and died in 2006. However, other rancher children are believed to have visited the site, including Sydney "Jack" Wright, who said that two sons of rancher Thomas Edington and one of rancher Truman Pierce’s daughters got to "the other location." Wright in 1998 would state, "There were bodies, small bodies with big heads and eyes. And Mack was there too. We couldn’t get away from there fast enough." Carey & Schmitt, 46-47, 53

*Sgt. Frederick Benthal, a photographic specialist, testified that he and Cpl. Al Kirkpatrick were flown in from Washington D.C., to photograph the wreckage and bodies. They were first driven north of town to one site, where Benthal said he witnessed covered trucks carrying wreckage of some sort. Then Kirkpatrick was sent to another site where they were picking up pieces (Brazel debris field), while Benthal was taken to a nearby tent. There he photographed several little bodies lying on a tarp. "They were all just about identical, with dark complexions, thin and with large heads. There was a strange smell inside the tent that smelled something like formaldehyde." Kirkpatrick later returned from the other site in a truck loaded down with wreckage. All their equipment and film was confiscated. They were returned to the base and then flown back to Washington, debriefed and told they hadn't seen anything. From Benthal's 1993 notarized statement, reported by Carey and Schmitt, 130-132; Friedman and Berliner, 103-105; also Benthal's videotaped interview in ''UFO Secret: the Roswell Crash'', 2000, UFO Central Home Video, Inc., Venice, CA: 2001

More in next post. Note that if you read through the list of all the dozens of witnesses, there is a high degree of consistency in the descriptions of what happened, where people were, what they saw, etc. Most of these are military witnesses who were there or family members.

Originally posted by yeti101
when you have some evidence of a crashed spaceship or any alien witnesses let me know.

We have had all kinds of witnesses, including June Crain, one of the civilians at Wright-Patterson who handled the debris.

www.ufodigest.com...

I don't have a physical piece of Pluto, but just because I don't have a physical evidence of Pluto in my garage doesn't mean it doesn't exits. In other words, just because I don't own a Cadillac, doesn't mean my neighbor doesn't own one. I have said in the past, just because you don't have it, doesn't means someone else doesn't.

Looking at the Roswell incident, there were flying saucers tracked all over the area before and after the crash, as documented by scientist and engineers and civilians in the area, and scientist and engineers who were observing and tracking those flying saucers have stated they were extraterrestral flying saucers. Are you going to claim they don't know what they are talking about?

In July 1947, the military said that it recovered one of those flying saucers, but over the years, the military concocted three cover stories for the initial saucer recovery press release, and all three cover stories have since been proven false, so I am going to stick with the military's initial press release that it recovered a "downed flying disk."

Even if I had access to pieces of the actual crash debris from the Roswell incident, with a full-blown military cover-up still in force, my security clearance would have forbid me from releasing such evidence without approval anyway.


[edit on 10-6-2007 by skyeagle409]

More first-hand witnesses to spacecraft and/or alien bodies from Wikipedia article:

*Private First Class Ed Sain was an MP in the 390th Air Service Squadron. On the evening of July 7, he and Cpl. Raymond Van Why were told to report to the ambulance pool outside the base hospital and boarded a military ambulance. It was driven north of town and then west into the desert. When they got there at night somewhere in the desert, there were a few tents and a number of floodlights. They were told to guard the entrance to the site from a tent set up for that purpose and to “Shoot anyone that tries to get in.” They were returned to the base at daybreak. His son Steven said his father was still reluctant to talk about it, being under a security oath and fearing for his life. According to Steven Sain, his father told both him and his brother that his job was to "guard the bodies at the crash site," which he said "were kept in one of the other tents until being transported to the base." He also thought his father had seen the craft, because he said "it was the strangest thing he had ever seen in his life." Raymond Van Why’s wife, Leola, said her husband first talked about it in 1954 when he got out of the service. He told her that he had been a guard at a crash site "out in the desert" where a spaceship had crashed. "My husband told me that it was a UFO that had crashed, that it was a round disc. ..he was out there and saw it!" Carey & Schmitt, 129

*Sgt. Thomas Gonzales, in an interview with Don Ecker, editor of UFO magazine, said he helped guard a crash site and saw bodies and the craft. Ecker wrote that Gonzales said he saw "little men." They were human-looking but had eyes and heads slightly larger than human. The craft was more of an "airfoil" rather than disc shape. Family members confirmed having known about the story for years. Randle & Schmitt (1994) p. 13; Randle (1995), pp. 38-39.

*PFC Elias Benjamin was an MP with 390th Air Service Squadron. On the morning of Monday, July 7, he first noticed highly unusual activity outside of the base headquarters. Soon he was ordered to get his gun and report to Hangar P-3 for guard duty. When he got to the hangar, the officer to whom he was supposed to report was being subdued by other MPs. He later found out he had been to the crash site and seen the ship, but when he had seen the bodies at the hangar, he had gone crazy. Instead Benjamin was placed in charge of escorting three or four bodies covered with sheets on gurneys to the base hospital. One appeared to be moving. During transfer, the sheet slipped off of one “revealing the grayish face and swollen, hairless head of a species that I realized was not human.” Later at the base hospital, with the sheet removed, he could make out “a very small person with an egg-shaped head that was oversized for its body. …The only facial features that stick out in my mind now are that it had slanted eyes, two holes where its nose should have been, and a small slit where its mouth should have been. I think it was alive.” Later, “I was debriefed and made to sign a nondisclosure statement. …I was told that if I ever spoke about it, something bad would happen, not only to me, but also to my family.” His wife confirmed that he first told her the story in 1949 when they married and that the memory continues to haunt her husband. Carey & Schmitt, 136-139; also video interview, ''Sci Fi Investigates—Roswell'', first aired November 8, 2006.

One more first-hand account next post. It's a biggie, a "deathbed" affidavit from Roswell public information officer Walter Haut, who put out the base captured flying disc press release for base commander Blanchard, who also happened to be a close personal friend of his.