Resist the war machine

a reply to: Deetermined

That has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of Hamas.

originally posted by: Deetermined
They mix Christianity with mysticism and still want to call it Christianity, when it contradicts everything Jesus taught.

Christianity has had its share of mystics (saints, seers, monks, hermits, wandering priests) over centuries. To sweep away Christian mysticism indiscriminately is to ignore the whole history of Christianity.

These individuals imbue scripture with wholly different meanings, yet uphold Jesus' teachings better than most Christians. Catholicism and Orthodoxy acknowledge them out of consideration for their pious living, even if the individual's eccentric views contradict their teachings.

Protestants alone reject Christian mystics. No wonder, Protestants are as uprooted as Ukrainians, who denigrate their shared past with Russia and try to invent a new history for themselves.

Mysticism is merely a higher form of emotional worship, therefore it's an oxymoron to speak of mixing Christianity and mysticism. It represents an ennobled Christianity.
___

Unless by mysticism, you mean Platonist Christianity.

Joseph Smith compared the creeds of Catholic Church & Church of England and condemned them as proof of apostasy, for representing god as an "immaterial" being, declaring that "the learned who profess a belief of them are wandering in the darkness of the mysticisms of the old pagan philosophies."

Smith was not far off from Thomas Jefferson's Deism, if Smith's Christianity was heretical, then so was one of American's Founding Fathers:
newepicurean.com...

• “To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul.”
  
• "At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus taught nothing of it. He told us indeed that `God is a spirit,’ but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter.”
  
• Plato “dealing out mysticisms incomprehensible to the human mind, has been deified by certain sects usurping the name of Christians; because, in his foggy conceptions, they found a basis of impenetrable darkness whereon to rear fabrications as delirious, of their own invention.”
  
  The Church Father Augustine, in his Confessions, admits that he had read “certain books of the Platonists”, which for him, “the Platonists many ways led to the belief in God and His Word.” The German theologian Lucas Holste followed his example: “For seeing that Bessarion, Steuchos, and others confirmed the teachings of Plato through their reading of the Fathers of the Church...”
  
  edit on 18-10-2023 by hjesterium because: url display issue
  

Then maybe you should try harder to get to know what God said.

a reply to: Deetermined

It that what Allah said to you or did you come up with it on your own.

I go to church weekly and pray to the rosary. I own a real bible aong with a book titled Manual for Spiritual Warefare. I also try to attend bible study class online as per my agreement with Father Robert Morey when he visited my home in 2021 for spiritual protection by the Catholic church.. Hes a Catholic priest and a Vatican trained Exorcist

Do you want me to pray for you?

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: nugget1

I'm finding here on ATS that some people have defined Jesus as someone other than what the Bible tells us. They mix Christianity with mysticism and still want to call it Christianity, when it contradicts everything Jesus taught.

I'm finding what Jesus taught to be in direct conflict of the Old Testament and what man said 'God told me....'.

I see organized religion as a multi-member human construct; a relationship with the Creator is one-on-one and requires no human intervention.

Thanks for sharing your views with me.

a reply to: hjesterium

Fine, let's go back to talking about Hamas, an extremist group that gets their views from a twisted religion that was given to Mohammad through fallen angels. This is why the Bible warns against mysticism and pagan practices. You don't know if you're being led by an angel of God or a fallen angel with a lying spirit. If what these spirits show you, contradicts what Jesus taught in the Bible, you should be leary. The Bible warns about it for a reason.

What has "Christian" mysticism taught you about Jesus? This is where it usually gets tripped up. Both the Jews and Muslims exclude Jesus as God and Savior from their religions for a reason.

originally posted by: Waterglass

Then maybe you should try harder to get to know what God said.

a reply to: Deetermined

It that what Allah said to you or did you come up with it on your own.

I go to church weekly and pray to the rosary. I own a real bible aong with a book titled Manual for Spiritual Warefare. I also try to attend bible study class online as per my agreement with Father Robert Morey when he visited my home in 2021 for spiritual protection by the Catholic church.. Hes a Catholic priest and a Vatican trained Exorcist

Do you want me to pray for you?

I'll pray for you since your rosary prayer to Mary, calling her "Holy Mother, Queen of Heaven, and Life" goes against everything Jesus taught.

I think things are being done to create war.

I absolutely believe certain people want war. This small groups plays each side against each other.

I've seen both sides post videos of people chanting for "death to the other side".

I don't think that represents the vast majority of any population. Most people want a home, food, and their children to be safe. All the other stuff is created by TPTB.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: hjesterium
You don't know if you're being led by an angel of God or a fallen angel with a lying spirit.

Yet you somehow know for a fact that Mohammed received his religion from a fallen angel?

It seems more plausible to me that Mohammed simply made up his encounter with an angel. Islam was not originally a Jewish-Christian sect, he based his claims in Ishmael in order to make his teaching more acceptable to them.

But has it ever occurred to you that the spirits of the deceased may assume the familiar likeness of saints and angels for the purpose of communicating a message without scaring people away? Furthermore, does not Paul teach to "test the spirits"?

originally posted by: Deetermined
What has "Christian" mysticism taught you about Jesus? This is where it usually gets tripped up.

I don't need any mysticism to tell me what I already know about Jesus:

Jesus only ever identified himself as a Prophet (Luke 13:33), and that's all the rumours said about him (Matt. 16:14, 21:11; John 4:19, 6:14). "It is not admissible for a prophet to perish outside of Jerusalem." It is right and proper for Islam to treat him as a great prophet first and foremost.

As a matter of fact, in three of the synoptic gospels, Jesus is almost never referred to as "Son of God" by anyone other than his students, daemonic beings (their testimony counts for nothing), and an alleged voice from the skies. He also allegedly ordered both his students (Matt. 16:20) and daemonic beings to never tell anyone that he was the Christ. Only in the Gospel of John does he receive recognition of his alleged status from others on the periphery of his group (i.e. Nathanael, Martha; John 1:49, 11:27).

But nowhere is it taught that Jesus is God!

This leads me to conclude: the Gospel of John belongs in its own separate category with the Apocalypse, it's a thoroughly symbolic work with symbolic formulations, the testimony from John cannot be taken as proof.

a reply to: hjesterium

Thank you for at least admitting that you don't know or understand what's written in the Bible or understand anything about the Christian religion.

a reply to: Deetermined

Hay remember me? I am the old goat and you wrote I need to read scripture. As such so how am I doing?


2 Timothy 3:1-5

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; ...

a reply to: Waterglass

That's the problem with people today. You try to explain scripture and the importance of scripture to someone who claims to belong to the religion for which it was written, and they only want to throw a pointless tantrum and blame the person who points it out.

I know you're making a good faith effort with the Bible study, but you really need to ditch any rosary prayer that mentions Mary. Neither she, nor the saints, were ever given intercessory powers in heaven for those of us still left on earth. EVERY PRAYER needs to go through God/Jesus only. Just trying to help whether you recognize it or not.

originally posted by: Deetermined
your rosary prayer to Mary, calling her "Holy Mother, Queen of Heaven, and Life"

There is no prayer in the rosary that says that.

There is the 'Hail Mary'. There is the 'Hail Holy Queen' at the end.
But there is no 'Holy Mother, Queen of Heaven, and Life' in any rosary prayer.

a reply to: FlyersFan

There is no reason to "Hail Mary". I'm glad to hear that you don't use those other titles for her, but a website that's dedicated to the rosary does use those titles for her. Pope John Paul III even had Mary's insignia engraved on his casket, so unfortunately, some Catholics do hold her in higher regard than others.

originally posted by: Deetermined
you really need to ditch any rosary prayer that mentions Mary. Neither she, nor the saints, were ever given intercessory powers in heaven for those of us still left on earth.

Totally disagree. Scripture is clear, we are all to pray for each other. We all intercede to Jesus for each other. Asking people in heaven to pray for us makes perfect sense, and that's what the rosary is about. The rosary prayers are scriptural and the meditations on the lives of Jesus and Mary are beautiful.

ATS Thread - The Rosary

There is plenty of proof that people in heaven intercede for people on earth. There are LOTS of miracles recorded of their intercessions for us. One such person for you to read and educate yourself - St. Maximillian Kolbe. Read of the miracles that are attributed to this holy mans intercessions from Heaven.

ATS Thread - St. Maximillian Kolbe

AND scripture quotes showing that the holy dead do 'marvelous deeds' after death, even raising the dead -

“Then Elisha, filled with the two-fold portion of his (Elijah’s) spirit, wrought many marvels by his mere word. During his lifetime he feared no one, nor was any man able to intimidate his will. Nothing was beyond his power; beneath him flesh was brought back into life. In life he performed wonders, and after death marvelous deeds.” Sirach 48:12-14

“Elisha died and they buried him. Now the bands of Moabites would invade the land in the spring of that year. As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band; and they cast him into the grave of Elisha. And when the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet.” Kings 13:20-21

originally posted by: Deetermined
There is no reason to "Hail Mary". I'm glad to hear that you don't use those other titles for her, but a website that's dedicated to the rosary does use those titles for her. Pope John Paul III even had Mary's insignia engraved on his casket, so unfortunately, some Catholics do hold her in higher regard than others.

Mary is the Mother of Jesus, that makes her the Mother of God. She is venerated in the Catholic Church, not worshiped. Venerated as the ark of the covenant, because Jesus is the New Covenant. Like the Hebrews venerated the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. She has many titles, but those you listed are not among them and are not part of the rosary.

There is plenty of reason to 'Hail Mary'. Jesus said to pray for each other and what better person to ask to intercede to Jesus for you than His own mother in heaven. That's what the 'Hail Mary' is - it's all scriptural and it's just asking Mary to pray to her son for you. St. Pope John Paul II having Marys insignia enraved on his casket (if that's true, I do not know) is irrelevant. He had a devotion to her interceding for him. It's fine. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't want to continue off topic. This thread isn't about the rosary or intercessory prayer. It's about "resist the war machine'.

originally posted by: hjesterium
Christianity has had its share of mystics (saints, seers, monks, hermits, wandering priests) over centuries. To sweep away Christian mysticism indiscriminately is to ignore the whole history of Christianity.

TRUE. 2,000 years of Christian history is FULL of Christian mysticism. Modern protestantism mostly doesn't acknowledge it. The Catholic Church acknowledges it and celebrates it. It's when Christianity mixes with New Ageism that the problems arise.

originally posted by: hjesterium
But nowhere is it taught that Jesus is God!.

It's all through the New Testament. Most notably John 1 - "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Scripture is clear, Jesus is God incarnate. Jesus Himself used the name God used for Himself in the Old Testament - "“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” John 8:58

a reply to: FlyersFan

Praying to the human dead is not biblical. We can pray for each other here on earth, but we are not to raise up spirits from the dead. Praying to the dead or giving Mary special reverence as a FORM of Mother Godess worship is just some of the old pagan practices that early Christians tried to drag into the religion. Paul warned against it, but old habits die hard I guess.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Praying to the human dead is not biblical.

Scripture is clear, we are to pray for each other. People in heaven can pray for us. Therefore, we can ask them to do so.

We can pray for each other here on earth, but we are not to raise up spirits from the dead.

We pray for each other ... those alive on earth and those who are dead. Asking those in heaven to pray for us is not 'raising up spirits from the dead'. It's just asking them to intercede with Jesus for us, no 'raising' involved. It's the same as we ask living neighbors or friends, except the people in heaven have a closer relationship with God.

Praying to the dead or giving Mary special reverence as a FORM of Mother Godess worship is just some of the old pagan practices that early Christians tried to drag into the religion.

No one worships Mary. There is no 'mother goddess' worship going on. The Catholic catechism is clear that worship belongs to God alone. Asking Mary to pray to her son for us is not 'Mother Goddess worship'. That's just Protestant anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

As I said, the holy dead do 'marvelous deeds'.

“Then Elisha, filled with the two-fold portion of his (Elijah’s) spirit, wrought many marvels by his mere word. During his lifetime he feared no one, nor was any man able to intimidate his will. Nothing was beyond his power; beneath him flesh was brought back into life. In life he performed wonders, and after death marvelous deeds.” Sirach 48:12-14

“Elisha died and they buried him. Now the bands of Moabites would invade the land in the spring of that year. As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band; and they cast him into the grave of Elisha. And when the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet.” Kings 13:20-21

a reply to: FlyersFan

No amount of excuses is going to make it biblical. Pope John Paul III actually credited Mary for saving his life after he was shot. Did Jesus ever instruct anyone to pray to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob? The answer is no. Did any of the disciples pray to the early fathers? No.