Scan your smile to pay for your shopping - huge checkout change on way for supermarkets

originally posted by: putnam6
If it wasn't more secure companies wouldn't want to use it, but all this tracking and picture taking is likely to get individual hackles up on a conspiracy site.

I'm sure it will. However, I could tell you things in person that would scare you a lot more than this, which is pretty mundane existing tech/applications all things considered.

I would be more interested in seeing the pic of the transaction that was being disputed on a bill. Could be very handy before a judge to do an old fashioned “facial recognition” as to if I or someone else bought $25,000 worth of Coach purses.

Facial recognition on your phone is easy because you are comparing data points to one person. There are millions of cardholders. Even I have trouble recognizing someone I have not seen since high school in an unexpected setting like a funeral or a concert or walking towards you in a strange city that you are visiting on vacation.

Facial recognition can be defeated by flooding your face with infrared light.

But the biggest detriment to the whole scheme is doppelgangers. I have seen a few over the years. Quite a number of people have came right up and had conversations with me convinced I was someone else they knew and knew well on many occasions by the conversation. What amazes me most is how many I seem to have 10-20 in Ohio, 4-5 in Tennessee, at least 20 in Florida, a few in Texas, California, Illinois, Michigan, and Australia as the Backpack Killer of all things.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: putnam6
I mean at the POS, at the register for the vendor, face recognition is faster than using a card chip/or PIN.

It will probably be about the same, the facial ID device still has to interact with the payment network which is where the largest portion of time running the kernels takes place.

Master Card wants face recognition, for a multitude of reasons, security obviously, but full implementation of face recognition tech would have cost and time-saving aspects as well.

They aren't at that point yet, they haven't even stepped into the EID world like some other clients of ours. It's being discussed but this is more of a security/convenience factor.

Fast Verification

Another major advantage of face recognition technology is it's fast verifying or processing nature resulting in contactless user authentication.

That's purely a facial recognition device that is not connected to a network gateway or doing payment processing. This adds time as security protocols need to be run and verified, then the payment authorization takes places. This all happens in seconds so latency is not really a major concern with facial ID implementation.

I don't care what other people say about you AM, I Always enjoy it when you start dropping info/knowledge.

It's an aspect they don't cover in sales and marketing seminars and meetings

Im referring to the slowest and less reliable aspect in the whole POS/transaction loop on the front end, the Judy Minimum Wage checkout lady. Between outright theft and mistakes, it's definitely one aspect companies big and small would like to take out of the loop if they could. I know quite a few of our vendors do.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Not really. The biometric scanner is actually taking hundreds of pictures of you at checkout in that brief moment and running this against a protocol that determines 'realness'.

Multiple, but not "hundreds." The standard for video is 30 frames per second, so I would say 4 or 5 frames would be used. It is possible, since this is a smartphone app and not some multi-camera biometric, that a video of a person smiling could theoretically be used, but I am also sure that there would be some human security in place to prevent something so obvious.

But yeah, a still pic would not work. The act of smiling or waving one's hand would be like a trigger to "process payment." The sudden change, satisfying a group of parameters, is easily detected.

From the OP's link:

It is understood that a customer would be able to scan their face or fingerprint using a supermarket's smartphone app and link their likeness to a bank card. Payments Card and Mobile website says it would work in a similar way to Apple's facial ID.

Personally, I have seen the Apple version of facial recognition, and while it works most of the time, it is far, far from reliable. I know someone who uses Apple exclusively (poor guy) and he has never been able to get the facial recognition app to unlock his phone.

Eyeglasses could be an issue. Not all glasses are clear (mine have the Transitions coating), and some angles will reflect ambient light. This makes facial recognition nigh impossible under some conditions, since it is the combination of the relative positions of the eyes and mouth that are used to determine if a face is even present.

Yes, that means bye-bye to face masks... won't work with them in place. Silver lining?

I wouldn't trust this technology. How, for example, would the app distinguish between say, identical twins? That night not be an insurmountable security breach, but there are unrelated people whose faces are so similar it is difficult for even a human who knows them to tell them apart.

Others may trust this technology, but not me. I understand the technical details behind how this works, and it is too subjective in its conclusions. Of course, knowing the general technological comprehension of humans today, I predict there will be those who scurry to try out the shiny new magic just because it is "cool."

TheRedneck

a reply to: Cymru

Hopefully this will remain optional if it happens with special tills for the stoopid sheep.

If not, the supermarkets will feel the losses with those who shop elsewhere so will be giving the system second thoughts after a while.

Cash is King.

I suppose this would help speed things up, given that 92.7% of supermarket customers only start looking for their wallet/purse after all their items have been scanned and packed ......

Of course, for the rest of us, who actually have our credit/debit card ready beforehand (because we know from experience that we have to pay for our goods), it will save, at best, about 0.2 seconds.

originally posted by: putnam6
Im referring to the slowest and less reliable aspect in the whole POS/transaction loop on the front end, the Judy Minimum Wage checkout lady. Between outright theft and mistakes, it's definitely one aspect companies big and small would like to take out of the loop if they could. I know quite a few of our vendors do.

I'm not sure if I'm following. Most major retailers and even many smaller ones have gone full contactless, either chip/swipe or SoftPOS (tap on screen). Can you expound? The entire EMVCo aspect was to eliminate the interface between the purchasers and the merchant's employees and also to reduce fraud by having the 'card present' aspect. Now, there can still be fraud, but with facial AI that is further reduced.

I can tell you funny stories about how the major credit card companies would just write off millions in fraud per month.

a reply to: Cymru

No thanks

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Multiple, but not "hundreds." The standard for video is 30 frames per second, so I would say 4 or 5 frames would be used.

It is significantly more than that, this isn't verification, it's verification and authentication which requires more data, this is video broken down into individual images. There are digital devices with 100+ FPS capabilities. Thales is already using devices like this in Europe for ID.

I wondered what those new camera screens were for above the tills in Sainsburys. Excellent. Now just ban cash and make it card or cardless. Anything that speeds up the NPCs and stops them fumbling about with cash can only be a good thing.

Sorry Albert or Keith or Gerry, you're not 'sticking it to the man' by paying in sputum-covered coins, you're just wasting everybody's time and causing a queue!

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

There are digital devices with 100+ FPS capabilities.

The OP's article stated that this was based on Apple's facial recognition software and used a smartphone app. Yes, there are secure devices out there which have much better success, but they are not implemented using a plain Jane smartphone, nor are they built around a low-end facial recognition app. Most are multi-camera apparati which compare different perspectives to give a rough 3d image. A single camera, no matter how fancy, cannot read 3D data. That's why we have two eyes.

So far, retinal scans have given better results than those expensive scanners.

Another good point was made by Ahabstar above... a cell phone facial recognition app works on statistical probability. It compares key points on the face of the user with key points in the reference photograph, and decides the probability of it being the same person. It has to compare the received image to one and only one photograph. In contrast, even in the small town near me, Walmart processes thousands of transactions per day to thousands of different account holders. How exactly is this going to handle that much data, thousands of comparisons multiplied by thousands of transactions every day?

The signatures one does with the little "pens" today, where you sign the screen with the "pen" or your finger, are not really verification. Almost all stores turn the security settings so low that just drawing a straight line across it will be acceptable. This will likely work the same way, with the identification probability threshold set so low that even a passing resemblance can cause an improper ID.

But it'll be convenient and new and shiny. That'll be enough for some.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: putnam6
Im referring to the slowest and less reliable aspect in the whole POS/transaction loop on the front end, the Judy Minimum Wage checkout lady. Between outright theft and mistakes, it's definitely one aspect companies big and small would like to take out of the loop if they could. I know quite a few of our vendors do.

I'm not sure if I'm following. Most major retailers and even many smaller ones have gone full contactless, either chip/swipe or SoftPOS (tap on screen). Can you expound? The entire EMVCo aspect was to eliminate the interface between the purchasers and the merchant's employees and also to reduce fraud by having the 'card present' aspect. Now, there can still be fraud, but with facial AI that is further reduced.

I can tell you funny stories about how the major credit card companies would just write off millions in fraud per month.

I bet you can.

Much like most topics that come up their effects on my chosen profession, can be different than the mainstream. It's a fairly niche business, with not a lot of growth, and these last 2 years a lot of contraction. It's why for me work has been sporadic at best, throw in shipping uncertainty and delays. Lots of companies are eliminating sales reps/outside sales and going strictly corporate. In a lot of ways, it's a dying business in a swiftly changing and shrinking 'industry".

Very few major retailers maybe a handful, most stores are small Mom, and Pop businesses, so losses there are magnified. This is why cost and fees are so important in payment processing. Most times the retail store is just a side business, an investment, or something a person always wanted to try, ie when they have to invest too much or make significant changes many just try and sell the business or most go OOB. Hell manufacturers and suppliers have the same attitude, the numbers are too small, ROI is slow in coming and monthly overhead especially in urban areas.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
The OP's article stated that this was based on Apple's facial recognition software and used a smartphone app.

I missed that part, the more refined facial recognition devices already in the field are Thales and Idemia which are in use with CBP and similar European agencies. They are in the process of partnering with retail and others to use these for payment verification.

I don't believe in alternative payments other then with my bank card.

How safe is this , is there a verification step to autorise the transfer of funds.

The way it sounds i could just install this camera with the software and everyone that passes it has their bank account cleaned out.

originally posted by: MiddleInsite
I'm so glad we got past the Model T.

Because it seems ANYTHING that might be used to make things easier, is now bad.

Yes, this probably could be used for nefarious reasons, but, I like the idea.

And this isn't going to change the fact that "THEY" already have all your info. If you have a mortgage, a social media account, a cell phone, an internet account. They already have most of your info. And they also have most people's pics because you all post them just like me.

It's called progress. Don't be so afraid of it. Don't be so afraid period. Remember, that Second Amendment will save you. Not really, but it's nice to say.

That isn't progress. It's decay.
It's useless mining of the earth to make tech that doesn't make anything better and isn't actually needed in the world. It's more complication. More machinery... etc
There is a threshhold where tech makes things better. Then once that is crossed, it does the opposite. I hate the "model T and candle light" arguments, because they ignore that threshhold. When tech does everything for you, at some point it defeats the purpose of living. Progress is a graphing calculator versus a slide rule.
Decay is a brain implant that does the math for you in your head. Goodbye, human experience.
The real problem is they are constantly inventing tech for the sole purpose of making money to the companies who use it, and potentially taking advantage of the data stored to track people.
This is vulnerability.

Progress is when things get better. Not more complicated, or otherwise unnecessarily tech-reliant.

originally posted by: putnam6
Very few major retailers maybe a handful, most stores are small Mom, and Pop businesses, so losses there are magnified.

Keep in mind that even those small businesses may be part of a larger advocacy group or association. We work with the NACS, for example, which has over 10,000 members which are almost all small local owners looking to get the same level of support as major chains.

For them adoption of this type of platform, unless subsidized by the network or issuers, is prohibitive even though it would help reduce reversals. This is why EMV took so long to roll out in the US, no one wanted to pay for the chip readers.

originally posted by: TheGreazel
I don't believe in alternative payments other then with my bank card.

How safe is this , is there a verification step to autorise the transfer of funds.

Your identify is verified and then attached to the wallet on your device as this is the Apple platform. This is no different than tapping to pay with your phone and how payments are processed, the intention is to make it more secure as someone could theoretically get access to your phone but now we also need to have your face in real time too.

a little insight into how secure face recognition is or isnt

The way I understand it, this works by you first downloading an app to your phone. You then take a selfie. The app stores hat selfie as your ID.

When paying for goods, instead of just tapping your payment card (which could be stolen), you get out your phone out and use that instead. The app sends a message to the terminal, the terminal looks at you through it's computer eye, and if you look like the registered selfie, it authorises the payment.

Fine if you're really worried about fraud. But just to spend £1.10 on a loaf of bread? A bit of overkill if you ask me.

(actually, I would hope it all works through bluetooth, so you just need to have your phone on you, and smile at the checkout camera, to make payment - saving a good 1 or 2 seconds of your very hectic life.)

Of course, meantime, since you never use your debit card any more, you never even noticed someone pinched it last week and has been buying booze all over London ever since!

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Thanks for the clarification.

I personally do not even use payment apps on my phone.

Probably sounds silly but i dunno why really , maybe a bit paranoid that people would be able to abuse it.