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Why do People See What They See?
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a reply to: 38181
I clearly DO see how other hikers like in the 411 books can get all screwed around an do seemingly implausible things if they had no frame of reference to put what's occurring into any kind of context.Since lots of the missing ARE trained in survival or emergency stuff in my mind that makes them more susceptible because they are trained to react but in situations like this, JMO is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
But what do I know, right?
I clearly DO see how other hikers like in the 411 books can get all screwed around an do seemingly implausible things if they had no frame of reference to put what's occurring into any kind of context.Since lots of the missing ARE trained in survival or emergency stuff in my mind that makes them more susceptible because they are trained to react but in situations like this, JMO is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
But what do I know, right?
a reply to: EnPassant
I have to disagree with the idea that "they aren't stupid".
We KNOW already that anything in your brain can an will be used, manipulated by whatever chooses to appear as Alien, Fae, or whatever entity is "flavor of the week".
The tactics and game plan haven't much changed in hundreds of years. Only what types of information humans contain has changed. I'd say this is a massive Achille's heel. It says to me at least whatever is actually behind all this is a one trick pony.
It can only alter our physical reality partially. It isn't capable of altering geography or physical items. Playing with our perceptions isn't the same as changing a fern into a rose or a mountain into a cow pasture. So whatever it is has limits.
I think that us not acknowledging it has limitations is a mistake. Every limitation is a clue.
I'm naturally excluding those who've ended up with radiation type burns or other actual physical signs of being tampered with. That's a whole other deal.
When aliens ask for 'ridiculous' things it is to throw people off the scent. They insert idiotic things, red herrings, like pancakes and yoghurt so people won't believe the witness. Aliens don't just appear as they are and present an honest appearance, they manipulate the witness's experience to make people think what they want them to think. They are not stupid.
I have to disagree with the idea that "they aren't stupid".
We KNOW already that anything in your brain can an will be used, manipulated by whatever chooses to appear as Alien, Fae, or whatever entity is "flavor of the week".
The tactics and game plan haven't much changed in hundreds of years. Only what types of information humans contain has changed. I'd say this is a massive Achille's heel. It says to me at least whatever is actually behind all this is a one trick pony.
It can only alter our physical reality partially. It isn't capable of altering geography or physical items. Playing with our perceptions isn't the same as changing a fern into a rose or a mountain into a cow pasture. So whatever it is has limits.
I think that us not acknowledging it has limitations is a mistake. Every limitation is a clue.
I'm naturally excluding those who've ended up with radiation type burns or other actual physical signs of being tampered with. That's a whole other deal.
originally posted by: chunder
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
I'm the opposite to excitable and highly skeptical - if my mind created a triangle of lights it also created the event from start to finish, a possibility as I mentioned but strange that it should happen numerous times in relation to anomalous events but never in any other circumstances.
[...]
Whether it means by some measure I'm considered mad then fair enough, my belief is simply that and I believe this event gives a brief, tiny insight into the workings of a phenomenon that is fundamental to existence.
my position or stance is that:
for a brief slice in time,
some individuals experience a 'hicc-up' in their normal, linear, Reality Time-Line
Perhaps the person 'sees' low-luminous objects soaring in the Sky---the Veil between Dimensions was some how opened up so that person could 'see' the Unseen... for a short period of time
Other people experience 24-7 hallucinations & we say they are Schizophrenics
Still others had experienced a Trauma so great ... that the normal brain activity which 'screens ' Out the Dream State Movie-Screen projected reality,,, for the Images of your Wakeful Environment (real-time Reality) gets cross-wired for a spell until the /intellect takes over control of what your Brain says you see-----
we (i mean myself) do get episodes of some alternate reality... a couple times a year since i was 3-4 yo
originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: EnPassant
as JV says, "It's all theater".
And theater is entertainment but it's also instruction. For humans, whether it's about war or comedy or romance (thanks, Shakespeare!) theater reinforces our shared cultural values. I guess the question Vallee and many of the rest of us should be trying to answer is, what are they attempting to teach us, and why are we having such a hard time learning it?
It's apparently something not very obvious, and it sure gives us the feeling like we're too dumb to learn how to tie our own shoes. Hell, we don't even know who is doing the teaching. They (whoever they are) definitely have their work cut out for them.
But my thought, which I expressed to Vallee long ago, was that it made little sense for them to be so obtuse about it. Give humans a straight up chance to learn the lesson, as long as we see it as important to us, we'll gladly do whatever it takes. We'll pull all-nighters! But instead "they" would rather do this slow behavioral modification stuff. Very frustrating.
edit on 6-12-2020 by Blue Shift because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Blue Shift
I don't entirely agree with his operant conditioning premise.
As far as I know, humans are more of a conduit, for other processes to occur,
and in and of ourselves of no value at all to 'the others'.
Now part of the 'puzzle' seems to be that our own bodies wish to have better communications inside of us.. a more coordinated nervous system --- cranial and enteric mostly, but other parts as well.
and perhaps these 'others', when they find a better sort of human conduit, use us for their purposes.. as a communications tool. We aren't the ones they are talking to .. we are the radio gear.
To use a metaphor.
Now the 'others' seem to include our own decaying 'soul sheath carcasses' (our dead), plus there seem to be real actual 'others'. It's hard to say much about them.. I call them 'Fae' but that's just part of it.
But any way you look at it, we are more like stomach biota that serve a function sometimes, than anything anyone is attempting to communicate with.
What JV calls 'operant conditioning' between some grand others and humans, seems much more like periodic bowel movements, to use a metaphor, to me.
Now, there DOES seem to be a reaching/yearning between us and 'the others', but it's not a very developed thing.. maybe if humans ever grow up.
I don't know.
That's some of what I have observed.
Kev
I don't entirely agree with his operant conditioning premise.
As far as I know, humans are more of a conduit, for other processes to occur,
and in and of ourselves of no value at all to 'the others'.
Now part of the 'puzzle' seems to be that our own bodies wish to have better communications inside of us.. a more coordinated nervous system --- cranial and enteric mostly, but other parts as well.
and perhaps these 'others', when they find a better sort of human conduit, use us for their purposes.. as a communications tool. We aren't the ones they are talking to .. we are the radio gear.
To use a metaphor.
Now the 'others' seem to include our own decaying 'soul sheath carcasses' (our dead), plus there seem to be real actual 'others'. It's hard to say much about them.. I call them 'Fae' but that's just part of it.
But any way you look at it, we are more like stomach biota that serve a function sometimes, than anything anyone is attempting to communicate with.
What JV calls 'operant conditioning' between some grand others and humans, seems much more like periodic bowel movements, to use a metaphor, to me.
Now, there DOES seem to be a reaching/yearning between us and 'the others', but it's not a very developed thing.. maybe if humans ever grow up.
I don't know.
That's some of what I have observed.
Kev
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
Sight and perception while related to eachother, are two different things.
Second.
Why do People See What They See?
Sight and perception while related to eachother, are two different things.
Second.
originally posted by: St Udio
originally posted by: chunder
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
I'm the opposite to excitable and highly skeptical - if my mind created a triangle of lights it also created the event from start to finish, a possibility as I mentioned but strange that it should happen numerous times in relation to anomalous events but never in any other circumstances.
[...]
Whether it means by some measure I'm considered mad then fair enough, my belief is simply that and I believe this event gives a brief, tiny insight into the workings of a phenomenon that is fundamental to existence.
my position or stance is that:
for a brief slice in time,
some individuals experience a 'hicc-up' in their normal, linear, Reality Time-Line
Perhaps the person 'sees' low-luminous objects soaring in the Sky---the Veil between Dimensions was some how opened up so that person could 'see' the Unseen... for a short period of time
Other people experience 24-7 hallucinations & we say they are Schizophrenics
Still others had experienced a Trauma so great ... that the normal brain activity which 'screens ' Out the Dream State Movie-Screen projected reality,,, for the Images of your Wakeful Environment (real-time Reality) gets cross-wired for a spell until the /intellect takes over control of what your Brain says you see-----
we (i mean myself) do get episodes of some alternate reality... a couple times a year since i was 3-4 yo
But is it really a hiccup in time?
Or is it just seeing all that's there ALL the time?
The theory of "the veil is thinning" has never sat well with me because like you I've had my fair share of those "hiccups in time". It for years never occurred to me it was another "side" bleeding over. I always got the impression we just
hadn't been seeing ALL that's there normally. So those hiccups was just me as a regular human getting better at being
a more well rounded human. No big deal.
If I accept deer, birds ect...as part of the world/reality I inhabit then why wouldn't I be OK with Orbs or other
more unconventional things? I could be wrong, or too simplistic tho.
a reply to: Caver78
For me if it is either seeing something which is there anyway or a veil being lifted between dimensions then either way it is controlled, directed and specific to the individual. It is theater which you would assume then has a purpose.
Confusion is mentioned in posts above and many direct contact reports hint it is a tactic. The farmer interrupts seed sampling, the airmen a repair to what looks like a sleek fuselage, the train engineer a steam driven craft. It provides an initial common ground and leads to communication which is initially banal but then moves to being ultimately incredulous.
JV covers this somewhere with the theory that it is at that point easiest to insert the subliminal message - or at least cement the memory. If its possible to stage the rest though then surely its possible to get the message across without the theater. Therefore the message is the theater itself and the target audience not just the individual experiencer.
But is the message that obtuse and are the behavioral changes that slow ? As individuals maybe but in evolutionary terms ? Is it possible to identify those changes through millennia to date to try and peel a few layers off of the onion and predict the future changes ?
If so then surely that would have been factored, so, as opposed to society then deliberately heading in an opposite direction (which I assume would then prompt severe corrective action), would that then lead to an exponential increase in those changes ?
Would true AI figure it if we hadn't by then ?
For me if it is either seeing something which is there anyway or a veil being lifted between dimensions then either way it is controlled, directed and specific to the individual. It is theater which you would assume then has a purpose.
Confusion is mentioned in posts above and many direct contact reports hint it is a tactic. The farmer interrupts seed sampling, the airmen a repair to what looks like a sleek fuselage, the train engineer a steam driven craft. It provides an initial common ground and leads to communication which is initially banal but then moves to being ultimately incredulous.
JV covers this somewhere with the theory that it is at that point easiest to insert the subliminal message - or at least cement the memory. If its possible to stage the rest though then surely its possible to get the message across without the theater. Therefore the message is the theater itself and the target audience not just the individual experiencer.
But is the message that obtuse and are the behavioral changes that slow ? As individuals maybe but in evolutionary terms ? Is it possible to identify those changes through millennia to date to try and peel a few layers off of the onion and predict the future changes ?
If so then surely that would have been factored, so, as opposed to society then deliberately heading in an opposite direction (which I assume would then prompt severe corrective action), would that then lead to an exponential increase in those changes ?
Would true AI figure it if we hadn't by then ?
People (including JV, etc) are assuming that there is a collection of beings, not entirely different from humans, that are playing with us, and that
we can ascertain their motives and communicate with them directly. I make none of those assumptions, it is unwarranted. The evidence doesn't support
it.
I do also use the phrase 'stage production', but i mean it in a different way. Much of the 'stage production' is done by us.
I do also use the phrase 'stage production', but i mean it in a different way. Much of the 'stage production' is done by us.
edit on 7-12-2020
by KellyPrettyBear because: (no reason given)
Last November, I had an experience where I awoke to watch a display of dancing geometric shapes on the wall opposite my bed. As a poster here on ATS;
most are aware of my stance on such things - I was rather surprised to put it mildly.
It all seemed very real indeed but was also very surreal. I even went to the doctors about this particular episode, as I have had a considerable number of sleep paralysis events also - in the end I was diagnosed with a sleep disorder.
What I saw was a "Hypnopompic hallucination" which occurs in the waking stages of sleep; it was all VERY real feeling! Now imagine if I was a deeply religious person or indeed a devout believer in the Ufological Faith? Would I have had a spiritual experience? Would I have broadcast I had an experience with "entities" in my room ala Ufology?
I do not proclaim such things at all, which won't surprise many here - but it's interesting to review your own experiences from a 3rd person perspective and look for more simple explanations to what appear to be extraordinary things.
It all seemed very real indeed but was also very surreal. I even went to the doctors about this particular episode, as I have had a considerable number of sleep paralysis events also - in the end I was diagnosed with a sleep disorder.
What I saw was a "Hypnopompic hallucination" which occurs in the waking stages of sleep; it was all VERY real feeling! Now imagine if I was a deeply religious person or indeed a devout believer in the Ufological Faith? Would I have had a spiritual experience? Would I have broadcast I had an experience with "entities" in my room ala Ufology?
I do not proclaim such things at all, which won't surprise many here - but it's interesting to review your own experiences from a 3rd person perspective and look for more simple explanations to what appear to be extraordinary things.
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
Agreed but then in going with the evidence there are two initial large problems, firstly the only evidence you can be reasonably sure of is that which you experience yourself, but you need a larger data field.
Secondly what evidence do you then consider, just contact events or do you include abductions and visions - in fact what part of the paranormal do you exclude ?
What evidence do you use in saying it doesn't support the wise men ?
JV tried the scientific approach and came to his conclusions - you will know better than me but I didn't think it was conclusively beings as I thought he left a mechanism as an option (clockwork / evolution) ?
Agreed but then in going with the evidence there are two initial large problems, firstly the only evidence you can be reasonably sure of is that which you experience yourself, but you need a larger data field.
Secondly what evidence do you then consider, just contact events or do you include abductions and visions - in fact what part of the paranormal do you exclude ?
What evidence do you use in saying it doesn't support the wise men ?
JV tried the scientific approach and came to his conclusions - you will know better than me but I didn't think it was conclusively beings as I thought he left a mechanism as an option (clockwork / evolution) ?
a reply to: pigsy2400
i've never had a hypnogogic experience.
I do concur that a lot of people confuse them for something relevant.
I hope you never get knocked on your ass by one of your 'hypnogogic episodes';
it's very sobering.
A lot of people seek that sort of 'confirmation'. It's generally ill-advised.
i've never had a hypnogogic experience.
I do concur that a lot of people confuse them for something relevant.
I hope you never get knocked on your ass by one of your 'hypnogogic episodes';
it's very sobering.
A lot of people seek that sort of 'confirmation'. It's generally ill-advised.
a reply to: chunder
We need a way to make more objective, 'subjective experience'. Not easy. Yes, we need to collect more data,
and in a way that minimizes self-delusion. Not easy. We are nowhere near this sort of data gathering capability.
Now Gary Nolan did some interesting research on biological effects.. but I can't say anything about that.
Myself? I exclude ALL paranormal experience, unless it shows certain markers that i have personally experienced.
I know this isn't 'fair'. But there's so much noise. I have a short remaining lifetime, I can only do so much.
Common sense. These 'wise men' have never helped humans (if they exist at all). Known 'tricksters' (and often
malevolent ones). This has been known for thousands of years. I'ts a big subject.. on some level these 'tricksters'
seem to be aspects of our own unconscious minds... watch "Forbidden Planet". Read "Messengers of Deception".
JV has only recently started harping on 'beings' and 'ships' like his discredited friends. yes, he was
formerly less rigid in this thinking.
Agreed but then in going with the evidence there are two initial large problems, firstly the only evidence you can be reasonably sure of is that which you experience yourself, but you need a larger data field.
We need a way to make more objective, 'subjective experience'. Not easy. Yes, we need to collect more data,
and in a way that minimizes self-delusion. Not easy. We are nowhere near this sort of data gathering capability.
Now Gary Nolan did some interesting research on biological effects.. but I can't say anything about that.
Secondly what evidence do you then consider, just contact events or do you include abductions and visions - in fact what part of the paranormal do you exclude ?
Myself? I exclude ALL paranormal experience, unless it shows certain markers that i have personally experienced.
I know this isn't 'fair'. But there's so much noise. I have a short remaining lifetime, I can only do so much.
What evidence do you use in saying it doesn't support the wise men ?
Common sense. These 'wise men' have never helped humans (if they exist at all). Known 'tricksters' (and often
malevolent ones). This has been known for thousands of years. I'ts a big subject.. on some level these 'tricksters'
seem to be aspects of our own unconscious minds... watch "Forbidden Planet". Read "Messengers of Deception".
JV tried the scientific approach and came to his conclusions - you will know better than me but I didn't think it was conclusively beings as I thought he left a mechanism as an option (clockwork / evolution) ?
JV has only recently started harping on 'beings' and 'ships' like his discredited friends. yes, he was
formerly less rigid in this thinking.
edit on 8-12-2020 by KellyPrettyBear because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Caver78
a reply to: EnPassant
When aliens ask for 'ridiculous' things it is to throw people off the scent. They insert idiotic things, red herrings, like pancakes and yoghurt so people won't believe the witness. Aliens don't just appear as they are and present an honest appearance, they manipulate the witness's experience to make people think what they want them to think. They are not stupid.
I have to disagree with the idea that "they aren't stupid".
They want confusion because confusion protects their agenda.
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