What if it's not what we expect?

a reply to: swanne

The entire focus on ETs and wondrous technology is a gloried way of bending over and sticking the majority of human heads, filled with self-serving platitudes, up the collective rear.

This event in human history is about US, not ETs and wondrous ships. Just what the Hell do people think is going to happen that will make earth-bounders happy as spring lambs? You may have noted that the term of "overlords" pertaining to the ETs and used quite frequently by those that have thought about the situation. Whether you want to hear that term or not, consider what it would mean if ships full of ancient wisdom anchored over Washington, DC, London, Moscow and Peking. They would need do nothing but hang there. (Oh, wait! That is what they have been doing for 70 years but for a wider audience!) We would scurry around belong among ourselves to decide what to do 'cause those hanging ships seem to mean business, that our business is their business, and they ain't gonna go away.

The human condition is ready--past being ready, for a modern reminiscence like never before, culturally, socially, scientifically and spiritually. Start looking around, note the NWO talk, the death of organized religions, the starting thinking about spiritual consciousness and the growing awareness of the sanctity of all life, and I hate to say it, the rise of good and honest socialism. (As an old but observant American, I find that last condition hard to acknowledge.) Look around, it all there across our world, you won't find blatantly obvious tags attached with that popular phrase, "The aliens made me do it," But they did/are doing it. Their mystery ships (real and possibly false images) are making the world change as they would have it even if they never send a word down. So we have a massive DIY project, already underway, of a global scale to put into motion. Hopefully, the ships will hang around for as long as it takes, because if they leave, I suspect we will return to our most cruel devices and eventually eliminate ourselves.

originally posted by: swanne
a reply to: CthruU

But Mr Spock or the Asthar Command? I doubt so.

We have one of those on this very site.

Debunked!



I think what you present is a very real possibility. Im not sure its particularly scary, but the idea we are not alone is arguably more comforting in some narratives.

I think a much more terrifying possibility is that "aliens" do exist, but they control and cultivate us in ways we literally cant comprehend.

Specifically controlling whatever happens after death to benefit them. Our perspectives might be so vastly different that we cant even effectively ask them to stop in a way they understand. They might even think inflicting "eternal" brutality on our species, in both life and death, is "righteous." Kinda brings in the possibility that gods in our history worked in this capacity.

Id rather we were just alone, in some stories about us and our interactions with "aliens."

a reply to: terriertail

We're varied. We are not innately cruel, callous, nor selfish as a species. The conflicts you see between people trying to come together in some kind of communal utopia and others wanting a dog eat dog, take care of me and mine is simply that variety coming into conflict. No alien ships necessary for a varied people to conflict over ideals and what society should be.

Is like people that insist a person who does not have religion has no reason not to give into some kind of twisted version of baser instincts they imagine for everyone. One has to wonder, are they some kind of sociopath or psychopath following a religious code to get along in society to control themselves, and somehow can't imagine that others may not need a code to have compassion and care for others, that a person may not desire to do harm all on their own, nor have a desire to greedily take all they can from everybody?

Some people are simply decent people. We are varied.

a reply to: swanne

Long has it been noted that our particular area of the universe is very quiet - that or we are not being told if they have heard any alien radio broadcasts and yes over distance radio waves attenuate (get weaker) so perhaps our radio telescopes are just not up to the job so to speak.

One argument is that perhaps a predator civilization swept through the galaxy at least in our neighbourhood and wiped out any radio broadcasting races or life is very rare and intelligent life even more so.

Going to everyone's favourite ancient aliens conspiracy the Sumerian god's one of them supposedly the chief and most powerful among them tried to destroy the human race because they were making too much noise while another saved some of them (this was the basis for there version of the flood story except that there Noah analogue built a coracle (circular boat made for swamps and rivers) instead of an ark (long and square - oblong so barge) but that is leaving the context I am making.

Aliens perhaps wiping out human civilization in the distant past then coming down and enslaving the survivors and getting them to mine out all the material that previous human civilization had refined and also to destroy all traces of the previous civilization, these space pirates perhaps allowed some of there enslaved human's (whom they did not create) to use radio communications etc since by this point they had them worshipping them as gods but a more strict and in charge guy among these aliens wanted to destroy not only all other evidence but even the survivors and he was scared that some other race would find out what they had done (human's were too noisy - and could bring attention to the planet they had murdered and ransacked) so he tried to destroy them but one of the alien's went rogue and tried to help them, perhaps he had always disagreed with this treatment of another sentient race.

Just saying, though I do not believe this reinterpretation of someone else fantasy as I am a Christian but still.

We only started flying 116 years ago. The solar system alone is billions of years old. The universe is far older than that. Look at what has been accomplished in just the last 20 years with computer technology. Imagine where we will be in another 20 years. Patience is a virtue...

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: terriertail

We are not innately cruel, callous, nor selfish as a species.

Im really not so sure about that.

I feel like the human side of us is very much a product of what we know as the universe. A place that is a circus of cold, horrific brutality and heartlessness.

Humans who exhibit these qualities in our civilization even tend to rise to the top. That not only provides an example for "success," it means those attributes can be more effectively dispersed simply by the scale of the exposure.

Id like to believe otherwise, but life has quite literally disabused me of the notion. I do agree that "some people are simply decent people," but it seems this is in spite of our nature.

Perhaps "life" is the only conduit into what we might call a "higher realm." Meaning that we can bring compassion, kindness, etc. into this universe, and even build an entire civilization around it, but its swimming against the tide.

Even religions tend to introduce this concept, though of course they are in the cultural context of their time. As it stands now, it seems our species is trying to eek out an existence on a metaphorical cliffside.. Where we watch our friends and family torn apart by the winds of the universe until we finally succumb to the same forces. And, all the while humans revel in the futility, and are all too willing to throw others out of the dwelling in some misguided notion it will appease.. Something.

Well that got dark, eh?

I do believe we can build something different. It is just very, very difficult and requires fighting against our nature until the Cultural Story creates enough "simply decent people" to cascade into our future. In doing so, I believe we are sprouting what many cultures have called the "divine."

But its tough.. And until it moves from some people being decent, to our society, Cultural Story, and civilization being decent.. We are simply like everything else here: turbulent and brutal with occasional anomalies of peace or "goodness."

originally posted by: swanne
What are your opinions?

People can talk hypotheticals all day long, but hypothetical is not the same as something actually existing. Maybe the universe is teeming with life, and civilized creatures, but the only planet we know of at the moment for sure with any kind of life on it (as we define it) is Earth. It doesn't hurt to look for life elsewhere. We're a curious species, and we have the time and resources to do it. Maybe someday we'll get some kind of indication that there is another planet with life on it out there.

But that hasn't happened yet. And the more we look the more we discover just how brutal and huge and toxic space is to us, the odds just keep getting higher that we're a fluke, the only game in town. Is that horrifying or sad? Nope. It's just the way things have always been, until our expectations were raised by our own imaginations.

It's funny that so many people who wish there were aliens that could take them on some magical joyride into the stars to see sunsets on colorful planets like on the cover of some pulp sci-fi novel are also the ones who make little or no effort to meet and get to know other intelligent cultures right here on Earth, or take time to watch a brilliant sunset that happens almost every evening in the west.

a reply to: Serdgiam

You ever heard the expression, "it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the whole bunch", and the expression "All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing", or "Those who seek power, don't deserve it, and those who deserve power, don't seek it." This is all true. Most people are decent good people. They aren't overly ambitious, they tend to just want nice simple lives with their loved ones, and to have fun with their friends. They don't desire to seek positions of power, and if they do, most aren't willing to hurt others, at least not very much, to get it.

If everyone was the sociopaths and psychopaths in charge the world would be much, much worse than it is.

Let me put it this way. Are you brimming with the desire to rape, murder and steal? Is the only reason you don't do so fear of the law, or some kind of religious code you follow out of fear of damnation? If you're not brimming with such desires, why do you assume everyone else is?

originally posted by: SammyB0476
We only started flying 116 years ago. The solar system alone is billions of years old. The universe is far older than that. Look at what has been accomplished in just the last 20 years with computer technology. Imagine where we will be in another 20 years. Patience is a virtue...

There's no logical reason to believe that there will be some "tipping point" at which we'll suddenly be able to pick up all the hidden broadcasts that multitudes of aliens are sending out but we were previously unable to detect. It's true that our technology might be in its infancy, but why wouldn't at least a few aliens out of those multitudes be broadcasting on frequencies (radio, light, microwaves) that we could easily detect? See the problem there? If you're going to assume that our technology is weak, then we also can't dismiss the chance that the aliens' technology would be strong (if they exist at all). So it balances out.

This goes back to us really, honestly only being interested in aliens that are like us. Like the aliens we see on TV. We don't care about intelligent slime molds that have discovered the secrets of the universe because they can smell time and feel radio waves. We just want people - like us - to tell us we're special and that our lives are not ultimately meaningless.

a reply to: Puppylove

You may very well be correct. Im certainly not going to state anything absolutely on the topic, and am self aware enough to understand my view is tilted according to my life experiences.

Either way, the path forward is the same, so I suppose it doesnt matter much. But, I do suspect that concepts like compassion, empathy, kindness, etc. dont exist here, other than what life introduces itself. And, what we see in our power structures, society, and culture are manifestations of what it means to be "human" in this time and place.

Would a different species be similar? We do see that on our own planet, but maybe that particular attribute is specific to "here" (this planet, this solar system, this dimension, and such).

I do agree that most want to simply live with their family and friends.. Its when the scale changes that we get a glimpse into something much different. For many, if their friends and family are present, the rest of the world can burn. And plenty will deliver the kindling themselves if they believe it will benefit their social group of friends and family (which can also apply at multiple scales).

As it moves beyond scales we understand and are familiar with, like our family and friends or online echo chambers, it devolves pretty quickly.

What would happen to a species if they perceived it in reverse?

I think we might even have what we would consider "alien life" on this planet. I come from a place where I believe all life is sentient, just in vastly different ways. If a grove of trees is conscious, would we even be able to tell or understand? The best we could do is test how much "like us" it is, which may be a fundamentally flawed premise. A premise that pervades our civilization; that we are actually capable of figuring everything out and that the universe complies with our senses in a way that is meaningful.

The things that are beyond our ability to perceive or abstract might as well not exist to us. That could even be said to apply to other social groups, much less more esoteric and obscure concepts.

It would also mean that if this is the only planet, dimension, whatever that has life.. We may still not be alone at all, its just that the divide between our Culture and Civilization may be so great that communication and understanding is not possible. From our end, at least.

I do not believe that Earth is the only planet with sentient beings. If it was, that would be mind boggling to me.

Great thread and interesting replies.

We are all organic. We need to appreciate everything which is us. Theres no race, gender, species... We are all organic! Chasing the dream which awareness has brought upon us. Which is more than likely been forced upon us with the introduction of stimulants such as Flouride etc... Mother nature time and time again has shown that the natural progression of life will never stop. The powers that be (well the ones you choose to follow) twist and turn your own existence. Take it back! Appreciate the sounds, smells and foods you eat. Work out whats going on yourself! I have. I'll leave you with this... Theres no money in a cure but theres alot of money in the medicine... Put this to anything you need in life. Vegetables grow because our World allows it, not some governing body... Its all infront of us, lets take it back!

a reply to: Puppylove

Well said.

To the point of asking why evolution would be so different on another planet - how many other things would truly be different when viewed at the conceptual/fundamental level?

They’d need to posses a fight or flight response - otherwise their species would likely end - and thus no evolution.

They’d need to reproduce and have a want/desire to - or else no species - and no evolution.

They’d need likely need to be curious - which leads to technological advancement - which leads to evolution.

Those are just a few simple points but the upshot is that I’ve started to believe there are some universal truisms out there than we think. They certainly could have evolved beyond us to a more “Star Trek” like future but it doesn’t mean they’re guaranteed to need to be fundamentally different than us.

a reply to: Puppylove

I'm sorry that you are so self-righteous for humankind in general with its basic animal instincts still intact. I felt it necessary to point that out because you gave no evidence of comprehension for what I was mapping out as the pathway to which we must fairly immediately adjust. Instead, you chose to defend the status quo of humanity. 'Tis a shame that you show no evidence of a need for humanity to change its ways. Has it worked well so far? Oh, I think it is your turn to go sit on the A-bomb, H-bomb, EMP-bomb or whatever is currently in vogue. Don't let anyone touch that red button!

a reply to: terriertail

Denial changes nothing. As for base animal instincts, hardly. Much of what we do, the variety we have, does not exist at the baser level. It's complex and only exists as our brains become more complex.

At best a beast may be aggressive, a truly sentient being can wage war, and plan for the far future. At best a beast may nurture it's young, a truly sentient being can see a need to nurture someone they've never met because we recognize needs on a higher level.

I'm not saying the worst crimes should be defended or ignored. What I am saying is, we cannot both be complex beings and all the same.

In order to fix our problems, we need to recognize them, not pretend we can just make them go away. At least not without a lot of genetic manipulation to remove/prevent those that are complex in the wrong way. Going that way is dangerous though, as they're the ones in charge, so those are the ones likely to control such an initiative.

Part of the reason we keep failing to fix things, is because people keep pretending there can be some kind of cumbaya moment and everyone can just find peace and love with each other. Not everyone is capable of that, and without controlled genetics people that don't fit the happy happy mold will keep being born. Heck even good people can become bad with the wrong sorts of brain damage, or childhood.

Humanity can't stop being sentient and varied, but culture can change. Only so much though. The only way the bad seeds can be removed is to either kill them off when they appear, or genetically alter them out, both methods only the bad seeds would ever consider.

a reply to: Puppylove

Unfortunately, the "aliens are shy or hiding from us and each other" is not a particularly good solution to the Fermi paradox.



The universe is probably full of basic life. It might even host sentient life that can't make tools. Maybe they come from a water world and lack the ability to make fire. That would severely limit their technological progress no matter how sentient they are.

The other problem is more related to size or mass. A world with twice the radius of the earth made of roughly the same materials would possess about eight times the mass. Entire civilizations might rise and fall on such a world and never possess the technology required to escape their own gravity well.

All of this means the Earth is pretty special. It is wet enough that life got a strong start and dry enough that advanced technology is possible and -- most importantly -- it was massive enough to keep its atmosphere but not so massive that chemical rockets can't achieve a velocity allowing them to escape its gravitational clutches.

If even 1% of close encounters of the third kind are truly alien, there should be a lot of local civilization-shaped heat within 100 l.y. or so, yet when we examine the neighborhood in the infrared we don't see anything that can't be explained by natural processes. That's bad news for ET and part of why I suspect that IF there are any "aliens," they are from our own solar system.

originally posted by: terriertail
a reply to: Puppylove

I'm sorry that you are so self-righteous for humankind in general with its basic animal instincts still intact. I felt it necessary to point that out because you gave no evidence of comprehension for what I was mapping out as the pathway to which we must fairly immediately adjust. Instead, you chose to defend the status quo of humanity. 'Tis a shame that you show no evidence of a need for humanity to change its ways. Has it worked well so far? Oh, I think it is your turn to go sit on the A-bomb, H-bomb, EMP-bomb or whatever is currently in vogue. Don't let anyone touch that red button!

You’re right if the argument is through the lens of “humanity”.

Look at it through the lens of economics or just survival of a species.

The general laws of economics are nearly universal truisms. Granted, some societies may do it in reverse (I.e. greater consumer demand in some parts of the world for things that are MORE expensive...) but that’s still explainable inside the laws of economics against the context of culture. Most issues people rail for/against can be easily explained via economics. Many aspects of how to think about the ET phenomenon are no different.

Survival isn’t different between wild animals and humans at the most basic level. It’s just we as humans have to deal with scarcity less (back to economics) and mortal dangers less (we’re the apex predator via tools).

To think an ET race has never been subject to any of the above feels like a less than probable event.

For instance, if an ET race had just one single other animal (in human speak) that could kill them and that same animal liked to eat the same thing as humans - all of the above plays out.

Sure, there’s probably a planet out there with only one species period and it’s a utopia for them. But I doubt that’s the norm. We could be the outlier on the basis of diversity of life as far as planets go, and I have no evidence to say we aren’t, but it feels improbable to me.

On the other hand, if we are the outlier in terms of diversity of life on a planet here on Earth, I’d say we as a species have done a pretty good job thriving (even with our flaws) all things considered.

a reply to: Puppylove

That’s pretty profound to me. I like it.

To put a twist on that... what if the “good” humans realize they have to do some bad stuff for the sake of the greater good (that isn’t a war)? Perhaps ET societies did?

For instance - universal death penalty for murder. Tribunals that approve people for the ability to procreate. Mandatory sterilization for crimes above a certain level. That’s Orwellian as it gets but think about how different the world would be in just two generations. I’m not advocating for this at all, but if I ET race said “F, if we don’t solve this once and for all we’ll keep wasting energy/resources on this stuff and we’ll never get where we want to go if we don’t” and sure enough that couple hundred year pain turned into a much better place for the rest of time - which led to more resources being available for the betterment of the collective we - which helped them develop the tech to get to us.

Again, I’m not saying we should do that but when you play it out there’s some logic to it.

Personally, I’m curious how we’d change if we just all identified as humans. We are humans, after all - that’s a fact. Stop thinking about people and start thinking about humans. Treat humans well, they treat you well. I say this as I’m willing to bet a truly advanced society stopped wasting resources on differences and focused on unification to actually get their society moving in a stable, positive and unified direction.

When I stopped thinking about treating “people” differently based on their differences and started treating everyone as another human it changed my life, opened doors and unlocked abilities to help people I hadn’t tapped into before.

ET didn’t have to do it that way, but I’m willing to bet they’re more concerned about each other and well being that someone’s political party affiliation, the size of their bank account/waist or what someone posted to social media. They would have had to move beyond all that to really get somewhere - at least within the human construct of reality.

originally posted by: swanne

Could it be that we are actually the only civilisation in the universe?

No.

Water vapor turns into clouds when it cools and condenses—that is, turns back into liquid water or ice. This occurs all across our planet because it is a predictable system comprised of the same elements and a specific set of events.

The four main elements that make up 99% of biological organisms on Earth are carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen. The Universe is packed with these same elements everywhere we look with spectrometers.

The Kepler missions have led scientists to estimate there are as many as 40 billion Earth sized planets in habitable zones with Sun-like stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone.

It's estimated there are as many as 200 + billion galaxies in the Universe. That's just an estimate based on our current technology and that number was increased from 100 billion a couple of years ago. So in all reality we do not know how many galaxies there are. We can't even begin to calculate the number of Earth-like planets sitting in habitable zones with Sun-like stars.

I believe we are no more of a mystery than rain occurring at any spot on our planet. As long as the proper elements are present and the conditions are right...rain will fall.

a reply to: EnigmaChaser

Personally I picture more advanced ET as mostly bored immortals (age wise) that spend their time in bored leisurely pursuits. They don't really wage war with each other, since resource scarcity has become a thing of the past. Most of their issues are handled in competition be they sport, games or debate. Serious issues like murder are handled by their justice system. As individuals they pursue what they desire to their hearts content. 9-5 jobs are gone, most things are automated or run by AI or biological machines.

Those that roam the galaxy do so out of boredom or scientific study. If they were to find a planet like ours, any number of things could happen. They could turn us into some kind of reality show. They could study us, possibly influence social experiments. Some might decide to use us for sport, playing a complex game of RISK using us as pieces in a complex war game. Others might find the idea of trolling the primitives and then watching the outcome to see what happens.

They don't need slaves, they don't need resources, they don't need to eat us, and they don't need us as friends. They've conquered death by old age a long time ago, and they don't have to worry about jobs anymore. The only thing we could possibly provide them is entertainment and study. There's no reason for them to expose themselves to us as a whole, as doing so would limit our potential as a source of entertainment, and ruin the fun for way too many of them. Letting us as a whole find undeniable proof of them could likewise result in ruining their fun.

Sure they might expose themselves to some people, as individuals or small groups, or maybe even some governments if it suits them, but the last thing they'd want is a mass awakening. It serves no purpose for them and ruins everything.

When aliens do interact with us it could be for many reasons, some may simply desire to troll us, some may wish to study us, some may wish to use us as play things, and some may actually care for the strange primitive beings and actually want to help us.

I picture them debating often on what is and is not acceptable with the primitives on the planet. Some are compassionate and argue that we are sentient thinking beings and that some of the experiments and games played by others on the primitive populace is wrong, while others argue about everything gained in the name of research, and others for keeping their citizens placated due to the unrest caused by too much boredom. Most conflicts existing in the culture due to conflicts in entertainment pursuits as resources are no longer an issue. Most conflicts are over which entertainments are acceptable and can be pursued and who can pursue which entertainments. Primitive planets being a limited resource, one of the few, there is probably much conflict over who can play with it, and to what extent and for what purposes. I picture some people illegally messing with the primitive populace without a permit, I picture whole entertainment industries with licenses exploiting various populations for reality tv. I picture some entitled prestigious members using populations as chess pieces in games of war. I picture some abducting us and keeping as pets, or possibly even novelties, or something to study.

I don't picture the cumbaya aliens, nor do I picture the invaders or people eating aliens. I don't picture conquerors seeking our lands, or to enslave us. In a way what I picture is far worse. I picture us, bored, immortal, and with too much power.

The best part of this hypothesis is, it explains all the high strangeness of encounters, it explains the many and varied accounts, and it provides a cautious outlook for anyone who may be lucky or unlucky enough to encounter them, as like us, you have no way of knowing the motivations of the individual aliens you are encountering.

It also explains why we don't know about them as a whole, and why things might be being skewed in such a way we can't prove they are out there. If an advanced species are actively thwarting us, there's not much we can do.

The downside is, it can only be a hypothesis as it's neither provable nor falsifiable.