If not for the serpent we would all be living happy materialistic lives with God

originally posted by: arpgme
Genesis says:

- God create man in his image and likeness (male and female he created them).

- God allowed humans to run around naked and free in the garden (nature), no rent or taxes or money.

- God told them that they can eat as much as they like (except the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil which brings death into the world).

- God told them that sex is ok, nothing to be seen as bad or shameful ("be fruitful and multiply").


Many religious people seem to be against the God of Eden. They believe sex and nudity should be hidden and embarassing and that focusing on living free with nature eating fruits and living for free is "wrong", "animal like", "being a bum", etc.

But it was after they talked to the serpent and ate the fruit that they became ashamed of their bodies and covered up, and in human societies no one could live for free anymore (taxes, rent, etc.)

Religious people still judge sex and nudity and not wanting to work for money as "bad", even today.

If the serpent caused people to eat this fruit of good and evil, made them judgmental and judge even their own naked body as shameful, then are the religious under the spell of the serpent still?

Genesis seems to tell a different story of what God really wanted for the human race (which many religious people would disagree with).

Before the fall, everything that God made was good, and without sin. Adam and Eve, before this asshole we have come to know as Satan reared his ugly head, didn't even know what sin even meant. So from Gods point of view, which is the only point of view that matters, all this talk we have today about living a "materialistic life style" wasn't even an issue. In a perfect world, such as that before the fall, there wouldn't even be a need for anybody to bring up such notions of materialism. So some can claim they had bodies of light and therefore didn't see each other as naked, but I keep things real simple when it comes to the word of God. In a perfect world, the very idea of sex, or nakedness wouldn't have been an issue to begin with like it is in today's fallen humanity where the very knowledge of sin is within us, unlike in Adam and Eve who were sinless before the fall. There was nothing "taboo" about it, nor would it ever be taboo in a world without iniquity, a world in perfect harmony with God.

a reply to: secretboss

originally posted by: NOTurTypical a reply to: arpgme Adam and Eve were clothed in light before the fall

TextWhere did you get that?? Do you have a source or something? I'm asking because I read something very similar on another site I visit.

"Legends Of The Jews" by L. Ginzberg-- Vol. 1 --
Quote
The first result was that Adam and Eve became naked. Before, their bodies had been overlaid with a horny skin, and enveloped with the cloud of glory. No sooner had they violated the command given them than the cloud of glory and the horny skin dropped from them, and they stood there in their nakedness, and ashamed.
Unquote.

There are several sources that show similar literature in the tradition of the Hebrews. Note that Ginzberg writes that "they became naked" inferring that they were not naked before the fall but that they became naked and lost their created covering. Also one must realize that the world at that time was a green house encased environment which presented a world of even temperature and a paradise.

a reply to: Shahada

Christianity is a very undereducated religion and it's adherants the most despised people in the religious world because you think yourselves superior and deny it. But you're saved, so you think you are going to heaven and Gods new chosen people. God never had a chosen people and the God of the Bible is a literary figure who doesn't exist. He is just meant to scare the foolish.

With that belief and attitude it then remains a question as to why do you waste your time on a forum of this nature? Just to irritate a discussion group whose intent should be to exchange theological points? Don't tell me you are a pooka.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Shahada

Christianity is a very undereducated religion and it's adherants the most despised people in the religious world because you think yourselves superior and deny it. But you're saved, so you think you are going to heaven and Gods new chosen people. God never had a chosen people and the God of the Bible is a literary figure who doesn't exist. He is just meant to scare the foolish.

With that belief and attitude it then remains a question as to why do you waste your time on a forum of this nature? Just to irritate a discussion group whose intent should be to exchange theological points? Don't tell me you are a pooka.

I guess I would say it is because I enjoy speaking my mind. I do have that right, and Christians are under and miseducated about their own religion.

I hope maybe one of those people will take it to heart and learn about all the lies they have been told about the Bible.

a reply to: arpgme

Text If the serpent caused people to eat this fruit of good and evil, made them judgmental and judge even their own naked body as shameful, then are the religious under the spell of the serpent still?

My understanding is that, yes, some are and some are not under the influence of the serpent. That is why the human species is believed, by some, to one day face a judgement. Then there are others who disbelieve that premise and also there are some who reject any and all religions. So it is a matter of what you want to believe. True Christianity will accept the doctrine of Jesus who teaches that the influence of the Serpent is well and alive today.

a reply to: Shahada

TextI guess I would say it is because I enjoy speaking my mind. I do have that right, and Christians are under and miseducated about their own religion. I hope maybe one of those people will take it to heart and learn about all the lies they have been told about the Bible.

That is fair enough. Yes you are entitled to speak your mind in an open forum and I would be the last to deny you that right but I have often wondered that out of the offer of so many diverse forums you would waste your time reading such tripe of so many misguided nutty people of which I am one.

There are some related stories in both the Hebrew and Greek literature that I also find very difficult to understand but have come to understand just how they got there in the first place.

The Torah is most problematic to me. But then after many years and study I have realized that Moses did not author all of the Torah. Moses gathered most all of Torah from the twelve tribal traditions that were available to him at that time. He had many scribes and much help in gathering his material as well as his own literature. With no computers or type writers I think he did a pretty good job. But realize one thing, I am not trying to sell you anything. What you believe is your right to believe.

Could some of the accounts be embellished? Of course they could. The same as in the NT and also the very same in all religions. Most Christian bibles have 66 books with as many as 39 authors and estimated authored over 1,500 years in various geographical locations. Now that is something to really consider as you realize it is fantastic to say the least.

Now I ask you in all fairness. Is it fair to disbelieve all 66 authors because of a few tall tales? Let me explain. We do not have the autographs of one single author or book. Not one original complete book can be shown to exist at this time. Yet you say that some or all of the 66 authors are liars. How do you know they are liars? If you do not have the original autograph then how can you call a person a liar?

A historian can write as he sees the events unfold but that historian could be totally wrong. Simply because a university gives you a book and teaches out of that book does not make it true. It shows only that the university accepts that teaching to be true.

Do you realize that scribes, translators, and interpreters are just as prone to enter their opinions as you are to believe what you want to believe? Even among the over 5,000 of the Greek MSS that comprise the NT are not in agreement. If they were than we would have no need for the many bibles that we see today. But word play cannot be determined except by opinions because there are no originals.

Name me one religion that can be proven to show the original authors work? Not just Christianity as you single out but all religions. Even the clay tablets of the ancients are nothing but recorded tradition. Show me a religion that offers what Jesus offers.

a reply to: Seede

Moses didn't exist to author a word in reality. Even archeologists from Israel have been willing to admit that no ptoof exists for most of the OT including the patriarchs and prophets with few exceptions that are exaggerated if real. Cyrus and Darius, Nebuchadnezzar all existed but not Solomon and David or Saul or Abraham or Noah.

Herod and Caesar are historical, just not in the New Testament. And Caesar goes unnamed and the wrong Herod.

Israel never had a fabulous Kingdom or a magnificent temple but based the tale on other empires and applied it to 'Israel" later Judea.

Even the second Temple is highly exaggerated .

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Shahada

TextI guess I would say it is because I enjoy speaking my mind. I do have that right, and Christians are under and miseducated about their own religion. I hope maybe one of those people will take it to heart and learn about all the lies they have been told about the Bible.

That is fair enough. Yes you are entitled to speak your mind in an open forum and I would be the last to deny you that right but I have often wondered that out of the offer of so many diverse forums you would waste your time reading such tripe of so many misguided nutty people of which I am one.

Ok.

There are some related stories in both the Hebrew and Greek literature that I also find very difficult to understand but have come to understand just how they got there in the first place.

The Torah is most problematic to me. But then after many years and study I have realized that Moses did not author all of the Torah. Moses gathered most all of Torah from the twelve tribal traditions that were available to him at that time. He had many scribes and much help in gathering his material as well as his own literature. With no computers or type writers I think he did a pretty good job. But realize one thing, I am not trying to sell you anything. What you believe is your right to believe.

Could some of the accounts be embellished? Of course they could. The same as in the NT and also the very same in all religions. Most Christian bibles have 66 books with as many as 39 authors and estimated authored over 1,500 years in various geographical locations. Now that is something to really consider as you realize it is fantastic to say the least.

Now I ask you in all fairness. Is it fair to disbelieve all 66 authors because of a few tall tales? Let me explain. We do not have the autographs of one single author or book. Not one original complete book can be shown to exist at this time. Yet you say that some or all of the 66 authors are liars. How do you know they are liars? If you do not have the original autograph then how can you call a person a liar?

It certainly is not a great idea to believe any of it is literal or historical but I can't say people who do are or aren't lying. It's just it was never meant to be and isn't (in Judaism) taught that way by it's adherants but that the stories are just myths to preserve deeper truths.

And in doing this Jews certainly have surpassed Christianity in sophistication and education spiritually and intellectually.

Believing it is history seems to produce a reduced intellect.

A historian can write as he sees the events unfold but that historian could be totally wrong. Simply because a university gives you a book and teaches out of that book does not make it true. It shows only that the university accepts that teaching to be true.

Do you realize that scribes, translators, and interpreters are just as prone to enter their opinions as you are to believe what you want to believe? Even among the over 5,000 of the Greek MSS that comprise the NT are not in agreement. If they were than we would have no need for the many bibles that we see today. But word play cannot be determined except by opinions because there are no originals.

Name me one religion that can be proven to show the original authors work? Not just Christianity as you single out but all religions. Even the clay tablets of the ancients are nothing but recorded tradition. Show me a religion that offers what Jesus offers.

You are stuck in true or false, black or white, with us or against us mode.

Religion is spiritual, scripture is mythologized cultural sagas. It is not supposed to be history too, so the stories don't need to be true.


Every religion offers what Jesus does.

a reply to: Shahada

Every religion offers what Jesus does.

Actually none do. Every other belief system on Earth is an attempt to make man righteous before God to be saved/justified before Him. Jesus was unique in teaching that only faith in Him would justify man to God. No other belief system exists that says instead of us doing things to make ourselves acceptable to God, that God took the initiative and made us acceptable to Him through His Son.

I knew my aversion to working (for money) was a godly trait!

originally posted by: corvuscorrax
I knew my aversion to working (for money) was a godly trait!

Lol! Money isn't a sin, you can do great things with money, I.E. donating to the poor, buying a meal for someone, buying the, a blanket. The Bible is often misquoted, it says the love/lust of money is the root of all evil. Meaning, don't desire more, just we content and give thanks to God for what you have.

a reply to: Shahada

You are stuck in true or false, black or white, with us or against us mode. Religion is spiritual, scripture is mythologized cultural sagas. It is not supposed to be history too, so the stories don't need to be true. Every religion offers what Jesus does.

It is true that I am stuck in a certain belief and it is very true that I am unable to free my mind such as you have freed your mind but I do believe you are mistaken in much of what you have been taught.

You cannot deny the thousands of manuscripts that have been uncovered both in the many bibles and which are not in the many bibles. Those many MSS are factual historical discoveries and verified by your own modern scientific methods as being penned in their own time. Now whether the material written is factual or not factual is another matter.

An example of this would be the dead sea scrolls compared to the Aleppo Codex of the tenth century. According to our science of today the dead sea scrolls are various MSS which have been penned at various dates spanning several hundred years while the Aleppo codex was penned in the tenth century. Now within those two sources is over one thousand years in comparing the complete Isaiah scroll which was discovered in the dead sea find. Those MSS are almost completely word related one to the other and If the Aleppo Codex are nothing but fables then they must have been copied from MSS such as the Dead Sea Scroll find. Do you understand the odds of two sources penned one thousand years apart and in different geographical locations being identical?

So what am I saying? We have a two thousand year piece of literature which is not rabbinical Judaic religion but is penned as prophetic and historical accounts. But you will not accept this as such. Well then, by that account you cannot accept the work of Philo or any other of the ancients because their accounts are in a similar disarray.

Another example would be Pontius Pilate. There is not one scrap of evidence that Pilate ever lived and for centuries was believed to be a fable just as you imagine. Then one day in 1961 there was a discovery made by a Italian archeologist in the ancient ruins of a amphitheatre near the ancient city of Caesarea. That limestone block was inscribed with a dedication to Tiberius Caesar by Pontius Pilate. Yet for hundreds of years the critics, just like you, did not believe the many Greek manuscripts which told of Tiberius Caesar and of the Prefect of Judea Pontius Pilate.

So in lite of what you have said, I hope that you will come to realize that historically Tiberius and Pilate were just as portrayed in the many ancient MSS that we have today. Now word play is another matter altogether. A word may or may not be accurate as the author had written but all we can do is take the thousands of texts and compare them and then accept what the majority has written.

There is no other religion in the world that offers you a new Celestial body and a new everlasting heaven and new everlasting earth with trees and water of everlasting life.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Shahada

Every religion offers what Jesus does.

Actually none do. Every other belief system on Earth is an attempt to make man righteous before God to be saved/justified before Him. Jesus was unique in teaching that only faith in Him would justify man to God. No other belief system exists that says instead of us doing things to make ourselves acceptable to God, that God took the initiative and made us acceptable to Him through His Son.

No, all religions offer what Jesus did, Wisdom, and are suitable spiritual movements and don't need your approval.


Just because you like your religion doesn't make you any better than a Hindu or Buddhist who have Krishna and Buddha so don't need a Jewish version.

Ask a Hindu the story of Krishna and he will tell you it is almost identical to Christ Jesus.

And the Greek word Christos or Kristos, however it is spelled, is based off Krishna etymologically because the Greeks knew about Krishna.

So if you only learned about what you're talking about you would realize that you are wrong.

Every religion offers the same thing as Christ. Only Christians say otherwise.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Shahada

You are stuck in true or false, black or white, with us or against us mode. Religion is spiritual, scripture is mythologized cultural sagas. It is not supposed to be history too, so the stories don't need to be true. Every religion offers what Jesus does.

It is true that I am stuck in a certain belief and it is very true that I am unable to free my mind such as you have freed your mind but I do believe you are mistaken in much of what you have been taught.

You cannot deny the thousands of manuscripts that have been uncovered both in the many bibles and which are not in the many bibles. Those many MSS are factual historical discoveries and verified by your own modern scientific methods as being penned in their own time. Now whether the material written is factual or not factual is another matter.

An example of this would be the dead sea scrolls compared to the Aleppo Codex of the tenth century. According to our science of today the dead sea scrolls are various MSS which have been penned at various dates spanning several hundred years while the Aleppo codex was penned in the tenth century. Now within those two sources is over one thousand years in comparing the complete Isaiah scroll which was discovered in the dead sea find. Those MSS are almost completely word related one to the other and If the Aleppo Codex are nothing but fables then they must have been copied from MSS such as the Dead Sea Scroll find. Do you understand the odds of two sources penned one thousand years apart and in different geographical locations being identical?

So what am I saying? We have a two thousand year piece of literature which is not rabbinical Judaic religion but is penned as prophetic and historical accounts. But you will not accept this as such. Well then, by that account you cannot accept the work of Philo or any other of the ancients because their accounts are in a similar disarray.

Another example would be Pontius Pilate. There is not one scrap of evidence that Pilate ever lived and for centuries was believed to be a fable just as you imagine. Then one day in 1961 there was a discovery made by a Italian archeologist in the ancient ruins of a amphitheatre near the ancient city of Caesarea. That limestone block was inscribed with a dedication to Tiberius Caesar by Pontius Pilate. Yet for hundreds of years the critics, just like you, did not believe the many Greek manuscripts which told of Tiberius Caesar and of the Prefect of Judea Pontius Pilate.

So in lite of what you have said, I hope that you will come to realize that historically Tiberius and Pilate were just as portrayed in the many ancient MSS that we have today. Now word play is another matter altogether. A word may or may not be accurate as the author had written but all we can do is take the thousands of texts and compare them and then accept what the majority has written.

There is no other religion in the world that offers you a new Celestial body and a new everlasting heaven and new everlasting earth with trees and water of everlasting life.

Great you love Christianity, I'm happy for you.

But other religions offer what Christianity does, they just aren't for you and you aren't a member.

But they do offer what Christianity does. If they didn't they wouldn't exist.

Islam is practically the same religion but because of a book and a slightly different view of the Messiah you don't like them and because Christians don't usually like Islam they speak lowly of it. But that is a strike against the speaker not the good doing Muslim who has a Christian neighbor and friend in certain nations including America, and the Christian who looks at the Muslim as a brother is of the Spirit.

Both are of the Spirit, the Muslim and Christian who are brothers.

Anyone of the Spirit doesn't see a person of a different "religion" as anything but a brother or sister.

ANY person can be of the Spirit regardless of man made books and theology. The scripture are for wisdom not division.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Shahada

You are stuck in true or false, black or white, with us or against us mode. Religion is spiritual, scripture is mythologized cultural sagas. It is not supposed to be history too, so the stories don't need to be true. Every religion offers what Jesus does.

It is true that I am stuck in a certain belief and it is very true that I am unable to free my mind such as you have freed your mind but I do believe you are mistaken in much of what you have been taught.

You are mistaken. I haven't been taught anything, I am self taught. A free mind is a good thing and a stuck one is bad.

Maybe your mistake was being taught instead of learning by yourself from someone who could have an agenda. And you definitely are mistaken believing that an enslaved (not free) mind is somehow good. It is a result of mind control that makes you think having an enslaved mind is somehow the right way to live.

You cannot deny the thousands of manuscripts that have been uncovered both in the many bibles and which are not in the many bibles. Those many MSS are factual historical discoveries and verified by your own modern scientific methods as being penned in their own time. Now whether the material written is factual or not factual is another matter.

An example of this would be the dead sea scrolls compared to the Aleppo Codex of the tenth century. According to our science of today the dead sea scrolls are various MSS which have been penned at various dates spanning several hundred years while the Aleppo codex was penned in the tenth century. Now within those two sources is over one thousand years in comparing the complete Isaiah scroll which was discovered in the dead sea find. Those MSS are almost completely word related one to the other and If the Aleppo Codex are nothing but fables then they must have been copied from MSS such as the Dead Sea Scroll find. Do you understand the odds of two sources penned one thousand years apart and in different geographical locations being identical?

The Dead Sea Scrolls are not evidence that Christianity is historical and actually go in the opposite direction that it isn't. They are from the time of Jesus and don't mention him or anyone.

So what am I saying? We have a two thousand year piece of literature which is not rabbinical Judaic religion but is penned as prophetic and historical accounts. But you will not accept this as such. Well then, by that account you cannot accept the work of Philo or any other of the ancients because their accounts are in a similar disarray.

Philo died in 50 AD and knew no Jesus.

But he invented the logos (Word) concept as applicable to Judaism and again prooves the unoriginality of the NT.

Another example would be Pontius Pilate. There is not one scrap of evidence that Pilate ever lived and for centuries was believed to be a fable just as you imagine. Then one day in 1961 there was a discovery made by a Italian archeologist in the ancient ruins of a amphitheatre near the ancient city of Caesarea. That limestone block was inscribed with a dedication to Tiberius Caesar by Pontius Pilate. Yet for hundreds of years the critics, just like you, did not believe the many Greek manuscripts which told of Tiberius Caesar and of the Prefect of Judea Pontius Pilate.

So in lite of what you have said, I hope that you will come to realize that historically Tiberius and Pilate were just as portrayed in the many ancient MSS that we have today. Now word play is another matter altogether. A word may or may not be accurate as the author had written but all we can do is take the thousands of texts and compare them and then accept what the majority has written.

There is no other religion in the world that offers you a new Celestial body and a new everlasting heaven and new everlasting earth with trees and water of everlasting life.

Yes, there is. All religions offer that on one way or another.

Your whole premise has more to say about the non existence of Jesus than the uniqueness and unequalled offerings of Christianity.

Every religion has its version of Jesus and offers the same or more.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
a reply to: arpgme

Two questions for you:
1. Why did God create the forbidden fruit tree?
2. Why did God create the serpent?

ETA: A part of me believes that God, or more likely an impostor coming across as the divine source of creation, wanted us to eat from the "forbidden" tree of knowledge.

Those are the EXACT same questions I ask...and I totally agree with you...the "god" of Eden set them up and wanted them to fail.

a reply to: wheresthebody

I'm not a believer, but I've often thought that if I've been wrong about christianity, then the "god" described in most of their book is clearly the devil in disguise.

Exactly...that's what I think, too, and I was a "Christian for two decades". Not anymore.

originally posted by: arpgme
Genesis says:

- God create man in his image and likeness (male and female he created them).

- God allowed humans to run around naked and free in the garden (nature), no rent or taxes or money.

- God told them that they can eat as much as they like (except the forbidden fruit of knowledge of good and evil which brings death into the world).

- God told them that sex is ok, nothing to be seen as bad or shameful ("be fruitful and multiply").


Many religious people seem to be against the God of Eden. They believe sex and nudity should be hidden and embarassing and that focusing on living free with nature eating fruits and living for free is "wrong", "animal like", "being a bum", etc.

But it was after they talked to the serpent and ate the fruit that they became ashamed of their bodies and covered up, and in human societies no one could live for free anymore (taxes, rent, etc.)

Religious people still judge sex and nudity and not wanting to work for money as "bad", even today.

If the serpent caused people to eat this fruit of good and evil, made them judgmental and judge even their own naked body as shameful, then are the religious under the spell of the serpent still?

Genesis seems to tell a different story of what God really wanted for the human race (which many religious people would disagree with).

B4 I go any further I want you to re-examine your understanding on what life is. In this world and what the serpent was really all about. IN ORDER FOR GOOD TO EXIST DONT YOU NEED EVIL?? That is precisely how the the mind operates, by CONTRAST. DUALITY. Night. Day. White black.up And down. Existing in this world cannot happen without this simple concept. LUCIFER was a necessary evil,and is also symbolizing another concept “FREE WILL”

a reply to: arpgme

I'm pretty confident our omnipotent God knew exactly what was going to happen in the garden with a naked woman prancing about.