"Mexican military chopper crosses the border, shoots at agents"---News Tuscon

a reply to: EternalSolace

You make a good point and in giving more thought to this I doubt there is any stand down order. I mean if they track a fast moving target coming straight on to cross the border and outside expected commercial flight paths? I have little doubt it would have a very ugly welcome wagon to say 'Hiya! Welcome to America! Now land or die!'.

On the other hand, I also have little doubt between Northern Command and the regular drug interdiction air control, they have things like this on someone's screen, somewhere, the whole time. In this case, ID'ed as a slow moving, routine Mexican Federal flight doing law enforcement stuff ....so no interest unless our guys get on the radio screaming bloody murder and screaming for help. I imagine that isn't quite what happened here.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Who is to say that the chopper wasn't flying at a low altitude, therefore not showing on radar?

a reply to: Sremmos80

NORAD is capable of tracking all of American air space. From feet off the ground to all altitudes planes can fly. Bordal patrol didn't have to notify anyone. There isn't a doubt that NORAD was tracking that helictoper. I'm sure the helictoper didn't have a US flight plan filed. I'm willing to guess that the helictoper's transponder wasn't identifying itself. As far as unknown objects crossing the border, if it isn't identified, it's intercepted. There is no certain distance you can cross before you're fair game for an interception. If an aircraft busts the ADIZ, you can bet that NORAD knows about it.

a reply to: EternalSolace

I see, so canyons and other ground level anomalies are not challenges.

This also means that the govt knows about every load of drugs flown in "under the radar" and choose to do nothing about them. hmmm

Methinks that the statement "from feet off the ground" may be a bit misleading, since mere feet off the ground exists so much ground clutter that trying to extract a radar image would be pointless.

a reply to: EternalSolace

And what do they use to track all american air space from feet off the ground to all altitudes that a plane can fly?
Radar can only do so much and is in no way fail proof.

What is the Mexican 'military' doing on patrol along the US border? This question needs to be asked.

If 'they' want a militarized border, I say we give them one. It's really that simple.

All, and I mean *all* of the nonsense would stop at that moment.

a reply to: bbracken677

a reply to: Sremmos80


I'm not trying to say that radar is infallible and that canyons and ground objects aren't a challenge to radar. There are radar systems that negate the line-of-sight problem by using OTH or over-horizon systems. These can bounce radar off the ionosphere and can see where ordinary radar can't.

Now, I'm no expert on radar or exactly what radars are being used in Arizona. I'm just saying that it's a safe bet that this helicopter was known by NORAD.

The government might not catch every drug runner, but they do get their fair share in this fashion.

a reply to: EternalSolace

Sure it was on a screen somewhere, I bet there was more then just one that they were looking at.
Doesn't mean they needed to scramble the jets for a bird 100 yards over the border. If it was screaming further along, sure get those jets in the air and check it out.

And what fair share of drug smugglers is NORAD grabbing?

a reply to: Snarl

What is the Mexican 'military' doing on patrol along the US border? This question needs to be asked.

The same thing that most countries do on their own borders....

a reply to: Sremmos80

NORAD can tell the difference between a legitimate or non-legitimate flight. This is capable through flight plans and transponder interrogations. Sure, you can cut off the transponder and not have a flight plan. That just helps you get noticed. Long story short, the capability to differentiate is there.

NORAD doesn't grab any. They assist.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: EternalSolace


And what fair share of drug smugglers is NORAD grabbing?

Troll much? I am sure everyone over the age of 10 knows that is a ludicrous question. Asked for the sole intention of belittling someone?

I am relatively sure that the DEA (Homeland Defense) has access to intel from other agencies, such as NORAD. (Given legislation from after 911) There is likely a sharing of more than intel in overlapping responsibilities such as NORAD's defense of the border and the DEA's quest to stop the smuggling of Drugs. There is no way that NORAD would be arresting anyone for smuggling drugs anymore than DEA would send up fighters to look at every possible incursion entering US airspace.

I would also be not surprised to learn that the DEA and NORAD have completely different systems looking at the same airspace. Such is the wastefulness of our govt.

a reply to: EternalSolace

Yes, there are ways to tell, but those are not instant. They take time to decipher from the mess of info they have going on 24/7. Lets keep it in context here, you are talking a bird that was 100 yards over the border for an undisclosed amount of time.
The time it takes for a bird to travel 100 yards is not very long, An average pro football player can prob do it in 30sec's to a minute. We don't run as fast as bird flys.
Yes norad has some shiny toys, but without some serious radar that sees everything or some type of sensor that tells them instantly, they will have a delay in response.
I 100% agree they have eyes everywhere, just if some one is behind those eyes 24/7 365 on every square inch of airspace?
Sorry my government has proven time and time again it is not that competent

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
a reply to: Snarl

What is the Mexican 'military' doing on patrol along the US border? This question needs to be asked.

The same thing that most countries do on their own borders....

Yep /sarc

And probably a posture the US needs to adopt as well ... I'm quite fond of 'accidents' and misadventure.

a reply to: Sremmos80

All the traffic In the US isn't followed by one big radar. There are thousands of radar stations monitoring the ADIZ. They can tell when an unknown aircraft is approaching the ADIZ from outside the border. The mess of info isn't really a mess.

It isn't Instant, but it only lags by seconds. When I'm flying and ask for flight following, or am flying IFR, it's all real time tracking. It takes seconds to realize that I'm drifting off course, heading somewhere I'm not supposed to be, or getting alerted to traffic in the area. Or even if I've deviated from an assigned altitude. From a civilian ATC standpoint, it's near instantaneous. Every time a radar bounces off a target, it's simultaneously interrogated for its information. Once again, it's quick enough for the computers to flag, within thirty seconds, that it's not supposed to be there.

Further, Luke AFB could have had F-16's or F-35's on station in ten to twenty minutes to investigate, and if need be, prevent another incursion.

originally posted by: Snarl
What is the Mexican 'military' doing on patrol along the US border? This question needs to be asked.

If 'they' want a militarized border, I say we give them one. It's really that simple.

All, and I mean *all* of the nonsense would stop at that moment.

Well, in all fairness, their Military has been in a civil war down there and more often on the losing than winning side of it. They're a tad...touchy when it comes to staying alive. Perhaps because it's not all that easy for a Federal Cop or Solider in Mexico. A good number of the thousands of heads and very badly abused bodies have been those of cops and soldiers over the past years.

a reply to: EternalSolace

it was less than 100 yards within the border though
a helicopter could easily do that in less than 30seconds

i dont know why everyone is making this sound like some several hour stand off in the countries heartland

bunch of god damned drama queens i swear

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000

originally posted by: Snarl
What is the Mexican 'military' doing on patrol along the US border? This question needs to be asked.

If 'they' want a militarized border, I say we give them one. It's really that simple.

All, and I mean *all* of the nonsense would stop at that moment.

Well, in all fairness, their Military has been in a civil war down there and more often on the losing than winning side of it. They're a tad...touchy when it comes to staying alive. Perhaps because it's not all that easy for a Federal Cop or Solider in Mexico. A good number of the thousands of heads and very badly abused bodies have been those of cops and soldiers over the past years.

Civil war? It's more aptly defined as a third world problem.That chopper was sending a message.

a reply to: sirhumperdink

And in that 100 yards, it's been reported that the helicopter opened fire on the agents. Like in my previous post, it doesn't matter whether it was 100 yards or 100 miles. Now they know they can get away with 100 yards, what's the next time to say they won't try for 500? There should have been American military aircraft sent to investigate and potentially prevent another incursion. The intent of the helo, at the time, wasn't known. That's all the reason needed.

a reply to: EternalSolace

how much do you want to bet that helicopter recognized the mistake it made and was long gone or had cleared up the problem before an issue to scramble could even be sent? (which is probably why they werent)

but yeah lets swarm the area with military over a small oversight long after the problem has been resolved
that makes perfect sense

again
you guys are drama queens
its like watching real housewives of blahblahblah but with armchair generals, guns,politics and real human lives

a reply to: sirhumperdink


An intercept consisting of two aircraft is hardly swarming the area.

The point is that the intention of the helicopter, at the time of the incursion, was unknown. Unknowns get investigated and/or intercepted. A thirty second or thirty minute incursion, doesn't matter. What is the exception here?

Did NORAD know it was a Mexican military craft and not care? Is there an order to ignore Mexican aircraft that busts the ADIZ? Are the border agents really left out to try when needing assistance? Or was there really just not enough time or reason for an intercept or investigation?

I'd like to hope you are right and I'm reading too much into it. But on the other hand, everything that happened should've dictated a response from Luke AFB.