Thousands Of Young Ukrainian Men Trying To Flee The Country To Avoid Conscription And The War

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

Russia has achieved their objective (gain of territory) and there is no need for them to fight further.

I find this a very ignorant statement.

Every war has objectives and Russia had an objective from the beginning to 'liberate' the 'occupied' territories. They were never planning to occupy Ukraine as a whole. It doesn't make any difference if we don't agree with what they did but the war has finished. Any prolongation of the war comes is a responsibility of all sides including the west.

originally posted by: Consvoli

Every war has objectives and Russia had an objective from the beginning to 'liberate' the 'occupied' territories. They were never planning to occupy Ukraine as a whole. It doesn't make any difference if we don't agree with what they did but the war has finished. Any prolongation of the war comes is a responsibility of all sides including the west.

I disagree, Russia has not come forward with lines drawn saying we will stop here to end the fighting. The last time they talked there was no give or take, just take on the Russian side.


The area they want is also the largest natural gas fields in the EU, oil, massive mineral resources and agriculture. It will cut off most of Ukraine from the Black Sea too. We need to understand that Russia's goal was always to take the whole country. That is why they called it a fascist state and the only way to get rid of it would be to take it all. By taking it all it would directly open up the EU by land to them for economics and military objectives.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

Every war has objectives and Russia had an objective from the beginning to 'liberate' the 'occupied' territories. They were never planning to occupy Ukraine as a whole. It doesn't make any difference if we don't agree with what they did but the war has finished. Any prolongation of the war comes is a responsibility of all sides including the west.

I disagree, Russia has not come forward with lines drawn saying we will stop here to end the fighting. The last time they talked there was no give or take, just take on the Russian side.


The area they want is also the largest natural gas fields in the EU, oil, massive mineral resources and agriculture. It will cut off most of Ukraine from the Black Sea too. We need to understand that Russia's goal was always to take the whole country. That is why they called it a fascist state and the only way to get rid of it would be to take it all. By taking it all it would directly open up the EU by land to them for economics and military objectives.

I don't think, and there is no much evidence, Russia wants the entire region of Ukraine. But on the other hand Ukraine was always closely linked to Russia. The Russians started their journey in history with Kiev which was the first capital of Rus country. Ukrainians and Russians are brothers and sisters and not as it is portrayed in the western media. This is a terrible civil war and the west should have never intervened prolonging the fight but intervene to stop it.

a reply to: Xtrozero
On the one hand, you say that Russia will soon take over Europe if we don't all go to fight in Ukraine. That was also part of your core question to me. Why else would you ask it? But hen you can't get over your ego and report how bad Russia's weapons are and that even 20-year-old junk from you is still better than equipment from Russia.

So what is it now, Russia is about to invade Europe or Russia doesn't even have proper equipment? Have you ever checked how much additional new military hardware was purchased on average? Why don't you count that? You have to decide whether Russia is on the verge of victory or whether Russia is still technically inferior even with your 20-year-old equipment. The front and back don't match.

By the way, I like how you simply embezzle the military budget that your country has increased since the war. Instead you come to me with empty semantics that are supposed to prove something. But I don't feel like it anymore, I can tell you're very argumentative and I don't argue with people like that.

It's very noticeable in your posts, with which you often -not always- just provoke a reaction that you can then get excited about. Two years were enough for me, the fact that it takes you so long to gain such insight makes you a defacto warhawk, whether you want it or not.

You're not in combat right now, comrade. I know it's hard, that's why I don't disrespect you, but wake up for God's sake.

originally posted by: Consvoli
This is a terrible civil war and the west should have never intervened prolonging the fight but intervene to stop it.

What a way to downplay it. It can only be a civil war if it is in a single country already. Ukraine has been an independent country for almost 40 years. So, I guess reverting all the countries that were once a part of the USSR is just a civil war...OK

It's not as cut and dry as you say. The USSR took over in 1931 and Russia basically killed off around 1/3 of the population with forced famine and the "great purge". There is no love lost between Ukraine and Russia.

1800s: Ukrainian Nationalist Movement - Nationalist movements spring up throughout Europe, and Ukraine is no exception. Pro-independence forerunners begin codifying and promoting the Ukrainian language, stressing Ukraine’s distinct culture and history, referring to themselves as Ukrainians for the first time, and, eventually, calling for self-rule. Russia responds with a series of repressive measures, including a decree that bans the publication of Ukrainian-language books and newspapers. “A Little Russian language never existed, does not exist, and never shall exist. Its dialects as spoken by the masses are the same as the Russian language,” a Russian directive declares in the 1860s.

1917: Ukraine Council Proclaims Right to ‘Order Their Own Lives’ - When the Russian Revolution breaks out, Ukraine’s newly formed Central Rada, a council of elected delegates, proclaims Ukraine to be a state within Russia, whose people should “have the right to order their own lives in their own land.”

1918: Short-Lived Independence - As Bolshevik forces close in, the Central Rada declares full independence for Ukraine. “The genie of independence was now out of the imperial bottle,” Plokhy writes. Ukraine then signs a peace treaty with the Central Powers in which it agrees to German and Austrian military intervention. As the Ukrainian government hoped, the Germans and Austrians succeed in driving back the Bolsheviks—at least until the signing of the World War I armistice compels their exit.

But they also meddle in Ukrainian affairs, overthrowing the Central Rada ("Council")and installing a pro-German puppet leader. That same year, a second, short-lived independence attempt fails in western Ukraine, this one quashed by newly re-formed Poland.

1919: Ukraine Divided Into Four Parts - In the aftermath of World War I, present-day Ukraine gets split into four parts. Russia retains by far the biggest share, while smaller bits are handed out to Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia.

1921: End of Civil War - The Bolsheviks emerge victorious from a brutal civil war in which the Red Army, the White Army, Polish troops, Ukrainian nationalist troops and unaffiliated peasant militias run roughshod over present-day Ukraine, with Kiev changing hands multiple times and massacres committed on all sides.

Era of Soviet Union, Great Famine, Chernobyl

Ukrainian Famine
CHILDREN COLLECT FROZEN POTATOES IN A COLLECTIVE FARM'S FIELD DURING THE UKRAINIAN FAMINE. (CREDIT: SOVFOTO/UIG/GETTY IMAGES)
1922: Incorporated Into Soviet Union - Ukraine is incorporated into the newly established Soviet Union.

1932-33: Ukrainian Famine - Seeking to assert his control over Ukraine, Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin engineers a famine, known as the Holodomor, which results in an estimated 3.9 million Ukrainian deaths. Most scholars consider this to be a premeditated act of genocide. “The historical record is very clear,” Herrera says. “There’s a lot of documentation that Moscow knew exactly what was happening.”

1936-38: Great Purge - Stalin initiates a large-scale purge of perceived enemies from throughout the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, either executing them outright or shipping them off to Gulag labor camps.

1941: Nazi Germany Invades - In violation of a nonaggression pact, Nazi Germany invades the Soviet Union and, by year’s end, has seized almost all of Ukraine. Some Ukrainians initially welcome the Germans as liberators, even going so far as to serve in the Nazis’ notorious Waffen-SS units. But most soon sour on the Nazis, in part because they mass deport Ukrainian civilians back to Germany to serve as slave laborers. One of the worst massacres of the Holocaust takes place this September, when Nazi death squads, assisted by Ukrainian police, murder some 34,000 Jews in a ravine outside Kiev.

1944: Stalin Deports Crimean Tartars - Stalin deports the entire population of Crimean Tatars, some 200,000 people altogether, nearly half of whom purportedly die of starvation or disease while in exile. Meanwhile, Soviet troops recapture Ukraine, from which they forcibly deport hundreds of thousands of ethnic Poles as they march west towards Germany.

1945: 1 Million Ukrainian Jews Lost in WWII - World War II finally comes to a close. All told, Ukraine suffers an estimated 5 million to 7 million deaths, or roughly 16 percent of its pre-war population, including around 1 million Ukrainian Jews.

1954: Khrushchev Transfers Crimea to Ukraine - The Soviet government under Nikita Krushchev transfers Crimea from Russia to Ukraine in a gesture of “eternal friendship,” a move that receives little attention at the time since it remains within the borders of the Soviet Union.

1986: Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster - A safety test goes awry at the Chernobyl nuclear power station in Ukraine, leading to a deadly reactor meltdown that the Soviet authorities initially try to cover up. The disaster, considered history’s worst nuclear accident, is often blamed for hastening the Soviet Union’s demise.

originally posted by: Naftalin
On the one hand, you say that Russia will soon take over Europe if we don't all go to fight in Ukraine.

Those are not my words, so why suggest I say that? I said Russia will not stop with Ukraine as they work on their long-term plan. That plan is mainly to get back the satellite countries that were once a part of the USSR. They went from the no 3 spot in the world under the USSR to not even equal to Texas after 1991, and that has really bothered Putin who was a diehard KGB back in the USSR.

My main point is we can fight Russia in a proxy war, or we can fight them directly at some other point in the future.

That was also part of your core question to me. Why else would you ask it? But hen you can't get over your ego and report how bad Russia's weapons are and that even 20-year-old junk from you is still better than equipment from Russia.

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't call it junk, it's not junk. It's just not the top tier we would use and so it is more obsolete to us, but not to others. Not a bad way to get rid of obsolete equipment.

So what is it now, Russia is about to invade Europe or Russia doesn't even have proper equipment? Have you ever checked how much additional new military hardware was purchased on average? Why don't you count that? You have to decide whether Russia is on the verge of victory or whether Russia is still technically inferior even with your 20-year-old equipment. The front and back don't match.

It doesn't match only with your logic in how you want to comprehend what I write. Russia had grown fat and lazy as we fought a 20+ year war where if you look at our equipment from the 2000s it is massively changed and improved because we have been in real wars for a very long time. Russia in the past didn't need to fight and just rolled into a country and the country gave up. This is the first time in a long while they really needed to fight, and it showed us just how not ready they are today.

How Russia has always fought and won is just throwing waves of bodies until they overwhelm the other side. They are over 500k now and are ready to go to a million or more. So, they take Ukraine then they reenergize their war machine and get ready for the next one.

Instead you come to me with empty semantics that are supposed to prove something. But I don't feel like it anymore, I can tell you're very argumentative and I don't argue with people like that.

I'm very argumentative because I don't agree with you? I just reply to your points, but you are the one who likes to rephrase my points into a straw man fallacy as you did twice here with your post.

a reply to: Xtrozero
That's exactly what you're saying! You phrase it in a different way shortly after you deny it. I don't want to blame you for anything, but that's the essence of your question. you ask me whether I would rather fight against Russia in Germany or in Ukraine. That's all you're implying with a question like that.

By asking me whether I prefer to fight in Germany, you are implying that this will be the case if I don't fight in Ukraine. I've already seen through the tactics behind your rhetoric, so you can attribute a little intelligence to me.

You're argumentative because it's really noticeable how you behave in a lot of threads. You throw out posts that are only intended to provoke. You seem to be addicted to arguments and you don't seem sincere to me either. That's the impression you deliver. So I'm not interested in talking to you any further.

originally posted by: Naftalin
So I'm not interested in talking to you any further.

Ok good, its not me who needs to worry about Russia being at my doorstep when they take Ukraine...enjoy.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli
This is a terrible civil war and the west should have never intervened prolonging the fight but intervene to stop it.

What a way to downplay it. It can only be a civil war if it is in a single country already. Ukraine has been an independent country for almost 40 years. So, I guess reverting all the countries that were once a part of the USSR is just a civil war...OK

It's not as cut and dry as you say. The USSR took over in 1931 and Russia basically killed off around 1/3 of the population with forced famine and the "great purge". There is no love lost between Ukraine and Russia.

1800s: Ukrainian Nationalist Movement - Nationalist movements spring up throughout Europe, and Ukraine is no exception. Pro-independence forerunners begin codifying and promoting the Ukrainian language, stressing Ukraine’s distinct culture and history, referring to themselves as Ukrainians for the first time, and, eventually, calling for self-rule. Russia responds with a series of repressive measures, including a decree that bans the publication of Ukrainian-language books and newspapers. “A Little Russian language never existed, does not exist, and never shall exist. Its dialects as spoken by the masses are the same as the Russian language,” a Russian directive declares in the 1860s.

1917: Ukraine Council Proclaims Right to ‘Order Their Own Lives’ - When the Russian Revolution breaks out, Ukraine’s newly formed Central Rada, a council of elected delegates, proclaims Ukraine to be a state within Russia, whose people should “have the right to order their own lives in their own land.”

1918: Short-Lived Independence - As Bolshevik forces close in, the Central Rada declares full independence for Ukraine. “The genie of independence was now out of the imperial bottle,” Plokhy writes. Ukraine then signs a peace treaty with the Central Powers in which it agrees to German and Austrian military intervention. As the Ukrainian government hoped, the Germans and Austrians succeed in driving back the Bolsheviks—at least until the signing of the World War I armistice compels their exit.

But they also meddle in Ukrainian affairs, overthrowing the Central Rada ("Council")and installing a pro-German puppet leader. That same year, a second, short-lived independence attempt fails in western Ukraine, this one quashed by newly re-formed Poland.

1919: Ukraine Divided Into Four Parts - In the aftermath of World War I, present-day Ukraine gets split into four parts. Russia retains by far the biggest share, while smaller bits are handed out to Poland, Romania and Czechoslovakia.

1921: End of Civil War - The Bolsheviks emerge victorious from a brutal civil war in which the Red Army, the White Army, Polish troops, Ukrainian nationalist troops and unaffiliated peasant militias run roughshod over present-day Ukraine, with Kiev changing hands multiple times and massacres committed on all sides.

Era of Soviet Union, Great Famine, Chernobyl

Ukrainian Famine
CHILDREN COLLECT FROZEN POTATOES IN A COLLECTIVE FARM'S FIELD DURING THE UKRAINIAN FAMINE. (CREDIT: SOVFOTO/UIG/GETTY IMAGES)
1922: Incorporated Into Soviet Union - Ukraine is incorporated into the newly established Soviet Union.

1932-33: Ukrainian Famine - Seeking to assert his control over Ukraine, Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin engineers a famine, known as the Holodomor, which results in an estimated 3.9 million Ukrainian deaths. Most scholars consider this to be a premeditated act of genocide. “The historical record is very clear,” Herrera says. “There’s a lot of documentation that Moscow knew exactly what was happening.”

1936-38: Great Purge - Stalin initiates a large-scale purge of perceived enemies from throughout the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, either executing them outright or shipping them off to Gulag labor camps.

1941: Nazi Germany Invades - In violation of a nonaggression pact, Nazi Germany invades the Soviet Union and, by year’s end, has seized almost all of Ukraine. Some Ukrainians initially welcome the Germans as liberators, even going so far as to serve in the Nazis’ notorious Waffen-SS units. But most soon sour on the Nazis, in part because they mass deport Ukrainian civilians back to Germany to serve as slave laborers. One of the worst massacres of the Holocaust takes place this September, when Nazi death squads, assisted by Ukrainian police, murder some 34,000 Jews in a ravine outside Kiev.

1944: Stalin Deports Crimean Tartars - Stalin deports the entire population of Crimean Tatars, some 200,000 people altogether, nearly half of whom purportedly die of starvation or disease while in exile. Meanwhile, Soviet troops recapture Ukraine, from which they forcibly deport hundreds of thousands of ethnic Poles as they march west towards Germany.

1945: 1 Million Ukrainian Jews Lost in WWII - World War II finally comes to a close. All told, Ukraine suffers an estimated 5 million to 7 million deaths, or roughly 16 percent of its pre-war population, including around 1 million Ukrainian Jews.

1954: Khrushchev Transfers Crimea to Ukraine - The Soviet government under Nikita Krushchev transfers Crimea from Russia to Ukraine in a gesture of “eternal friendship,” a move that receives little attention at the time since it remains within the borders of the Soviet Union.

1986: Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster - A safety test goes awry at the Chernobyl nuclear power station in Ukraine, leading to a deadly reactor meltdown that the Soviet authorities initially try to cover up. The disaster, considered history’s worst nuclear accident, is often blamed for hastening the Soviet Union’s demise.

:

It's still a civil war and a prolonged one for which all sides are responsible. Ukraine is independent but its people are closely related to the Russians, brothers and sisters in a few words.

The idea you have put down has failed so many times as the invasions of other countries by the US and NATO have resulted either in the complete disintegration of the country or civil wars and further destabilisation. Remember what I told you earlier? Do you want to still argue about Iraq and the invasion that completely destabilised the country and destroyed it or maybe you want to bring again Afghanistan now back at the hands of the Taliban.

The foreign western invasions have destroyed and destabilised countries. If that's your plan then it has failed. If your plan is to prolong the war by selling arms to Ukraine then it might be good for the arms industry but it doesn't seem to work well. You haven't asked the people of Ukraine if they want to keep fighting forever. It looks they don't want to and the video shows part of the reality. The whole picture could much much worse than it is presented on the video.

a reply to: Xtrozero
I wouldn't buy your concern anyway, even if you had expressed it.

originally posted by: Consvoli

The idea you have put down has failed so many times as the invasions of other countries by the US and NATO

Kind of apples and oranges here. Helping Ukraine maintain its independence is not us invading anyone so not the same. So, what do you suggest for countries that Russia pushes its military might on? Should they just bow down to Russia to prevent the horrors of war? Putin isn't done as he goes after remaking the USSR of old. He has even directly put Poland, Finland, and Sweden on his list. At what point do you say enough is enough and actually fight?

Sky news did a story about some Idiots who went to Ukraine to fight for something or other. One was called “The Irish Rambo.” When they were leaving after their service they bought the wrong train ticket and the young male conductor would not let them travel and so they were left on the platform late at night as the train pulled away. Worth watching for a good laugh.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

The idea you have put down has failed so many times as the invasions of other countries by the US and NATO

Kind of apples and oranges here. Helping Ukraine maintain its independence is not us invading anyone so not the same. So, what do you suggest for countries that Russia pushes its military might on? Should they just bow down to Russia to prevent the horrors of war? Putin isn't done as he goes after remaking the USSR of old. He has even directly put Poland, Finland, and Sweden on his list. At what point do you say enough is enough and actually fight?

You have put this forward as an example earlier if you remember and I ve answered what happens when the west tries to intervene in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan or anywhere else. It has been a disaster.

Ukraine has fought but couldn't keep the Russian speaking territories and there should be an end to the conflict and both sides seem to want and end. I understand that the deep state in the US wants the war prolonged but it's not their boys and girls dying in their thousands.

The argument Russia wants to expand and become the new USSR it's just not true but western propaganda. Nobody buys it. The west wants a proxy war but they can't count on the Ukrainians anymore because many of them don't want to fight just as the Russians don't want to fight.

originally posted by: CitizenB
Sky news did a story about some Idiots who went to Ukraine to fight for something or other. One was called “The Irish Rambo.” When they were leaving after their service they bought the wrong train ticket and the young male conductor would not let them travel and so they were left on the platform late at night as the train pulled away. Worth watching for a good laugh.

It must have been another story.
Good try.

a reply to: Consvoli

"" I am sure many young Russian men don't want to fight too and do everything possible not to join the Russian Army. ""


SORRY , BUD, but,..... so many russians willingly signed up
they had to turn people away, and that was the first few months
of conscription this year
they asked for 300,000 and got 500,000


"" ukrainian men are often beaten up and treated terribly""
even though it IS WAR.......
the russians treat surrendering, or wounded ukrainians BETTER
than the entire state of ukraine does

remember the prisoners ukraine shot out of the sky?
or the hi-mars attack on 1000 surrendered ukrainians
at azovstal prison? or
(the nato advisors) working as BARRIER TROOPS

this madness gotta stop,

but if trump wins the democratic empire is gonna need a place to go
they all were promised golden parachutes from that $200 billion
defending ukraine,
promised spots in the ukrainian governmint, land, mansions,....
and.............. NO EXTRADITION TO THE UNITED STATES
no persecution from TRUMP

and it is all because of that 2011 deal, with biden jr, burisma, shell, & cefc
to supply all of europe with the yuzivska gas field
that just happens to be under DONBASS where millions of
russian land owners live, who might expect royalties
making the big guy BILLIONS @10% through the existing ukrainian
and russian pipelines,.. but russia intervened

and biden still owed chinese state oil company cefc still wanted their cut
so biden sold them usa oil from strategic reserve AT DISCOUNT
forcing us to refill it at much higher price,... (still empty)

this is why ukraine must defeat russia democrats FREEDOM depend on it

originally posted by: Consvoli
You have put this forward as an example earlier if you remember and I ve answered what happens when the west tries to intervene in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan or anywhere else. It has been a disaster.

You can keep on saying this, but it has nothing to do with my point. I even said it was a mistake to go into those countries, so what else is there to say? My point was it doesn't need to be a member of NATO to support. That was it... As to these other countries, the only disaster was us wasting our time, money, and lives to even think about trying to change people who haven't changed for 2000 years. Iraq is now better, but Afghanistan is no better or worse. Was the Taliban before and now it is again. At least the women had 20 years of freedom before they were put back under slavery.

The argument Russia wants to expand and become the new USSR it's just not true but western propaganda. Nobody buys it. The west wants a proxy war but they can't count on the Ukrainians anymore because many of them don't want to fight just as the Russians don't want to fight.

It's not Western propaganda, it's Putin... Honestly, 10 years ago I was defending Russia that they no longer were that war machine and then they proved me wrong. Not going to happen again.

originally posted by: confuzedcitizen

SORRY , BUD, but,..... so many russians willingly signed up
they had to turn people away, and that was the first few months
of conscription this year
they asked for 300,000 and got 500,000

You are pushing hyperbole in both directions.

Ukrainians are fighting for their country, and Russians are asking what the hell are we fighting for.

Russa is pushing people into a meat grinder the death ratios are crazy as to how many Russians are dying, a good amount of Ukrainians too, but nothing like the Russians.

Russians offer big pay and short time in combat, but they are not paying, and they leave the soldiers in the battle until they die, so no payoffs are needed.

The Russian military is reportedly offering soldiers large amounts of money to sign on for short-term military contracts as the nation struggles to recruit troops in its ongoing war in Ukraine. In Tula, a city located south of Moscow, soldiers who opt for three-month military contracts are now being offered over 170,000 rubles ($2,900) per month.

Also this year...

From 2024, anyone aged 18 to 30 will be called up for a year of military service, with those served draft notices banned from leaving the country

Young men are not running to join. Russia is also going after the extreme poverty areas and just getting all the men. They will have 1 million dead or severely wounded in the near future and will need more.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli
You have put this forward as an example earlier if you remember and I ve answered what happens when the west tries to intervene in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan or anywhere else. It has been a disaster.

You can keep on saying this, but it has nothing to do with my point. I even said it was a mistake to go into those countries, so what else is there to say? My point was it doesn't need to be a member of NATO to support. That was it... As to these other countries, the only disaster was us wasting our time, money, and lives to even think about trying to change people who haven't changed for 2000 years. Iraq is now better, but Afghanistan is no better or worse. Was the Taliban before and now it is again. At least the women had 20 years of freedom before they were put back under slavery.

The argument Russia wants to expand and become the new USSR it's just not true but western propaganda. Nobody buys it. The west wants a proxy war but they can't count on the Ukrainians anymore because many of them don't want to fight just as the Russians don't want to fight.

It's not Western propaganda, it's Putin... Honestly, 10 years ago I was defending Russia that they no longer were that war machine and then they proved me wrong. Not going to happen again.

It was a mistake even if you cannot admit it. The interventions have either destabilised or destroyed the countries through civil wars and endless fightings. Foreign interventions are not the way to establish democracy.

None of these countries were NATO members or had anything to do with NATO and the west. I don't know how can you support your statement Iraq is now better... Better in what? All the countries that have been invaded are many more times worse than they were before. Democracy cannot be imported....

And yet the ideas put forward are mostly western propaganda. Russia doesn't want to revive the diversity union not to occupy the entire area of Ukraine or Poland and the other Baltic countries that were mentioned earlier. This is just scaremongering and sometimes works well but because time passed we can see it's just not true.

The war is a terrible thing and it should have never happened but the west cannot use it as a proxy war against Russia. It's a civil war that must come to an end as soon as possible without further delays. It's expected to see thousands of young Ukrainians not to want anymore of this fighting and to refuse to enlist and serve in the army. The same must be happening on the other side one might guess.

originally posted by: Consvoli

None of these countries were NATO members or had anything to do with NATO and the west. I don't know how can you support your statement Iraq is now better... Better in what? All the countries that have been invaded are many more times worse than they were before. Democracy cannot be imported....

Have you been to either? Were you there before the invasion? They were totally different wars. We didn't bomb the crap out of them for 20 years, so Afghanistan is still a crap hole before and after. Iraq war was extremely short, and they have a working Government. Saddam and his sons were insane, massive killings on their whims, that was better? Willing to use WMDs and take over anyone they deemed weaker. I'm not justifying anything just telling it like it was. I still wish we didn't go in and just let Saddam do what he wanted,

In Afghanistan, we spent 20 years trying to help them prop up a real Government so that the Taliban didn't rule. No better or worse, but the interesting part is with invasions come infrastructure repairs and construction. Much of the construction for the last 20 years was paid for by us to do. Saying things like "many more times worse" is just some opinion based on bias information.

And yet the ideas put forward are mostly western propaganda. Russia doesn't want to revive the diversity union not to occupy the entire area of Ukraine or Poland and the other Baltic countries that were mentioned earlier. This is just scaremongering and sometimes works well but because time passed we can see it's just not true.

I'm glad you believe that, but Putin has said otherwise. So why did he enter in the first place? You tell me... You keep saying it is a civil war but then say it is not by suggesting Putin just wants a small chunk, can't have it both ways. I have shown the history of how Russia has treated the people there over and over, it's not a civil war. It's a prior aggressor wanting back that they claimed by force in the past too.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

None of these countries were NATO members or had anything to do with NATO and the west. I don't know how can you support your statement Iraq is now better... Better in what? All the countries that have been invaded are many more times worse than they were before. Democracy cannot be imported....

Have you been to either? Were you there before the invasion? They were totally different wars. We didn't bomb the crap out of them for 20 years, so Afghanistan is still a crap hole before and after. Iraq war was extremely short, and they have a working Government. Saddam and his sons were insane, massive killings on their whims, that was better? Willing to use WMDs and take over anyone they deemed weaker. I'm not justifying anything just telling it like it was. I still wish we didn't go in and just let Saddam do what he wanted,

In Afghanistan, we spent 20 years trying to help them prop up a real Government so that the Taliban didn't rule. No better or worse, but the interesting part is with invasions come infrastructure repairs and construction. Much of the construction for the last 20 years was paid for by us to do. Saying things like "many more times worse" is just some opinion based on bias information.

And yet the ideas put forward are mostly western propaganda. Russia doesn't want to revive the diversity union not to occupy the entire area of Ukraine or Poland and the other Baltic countries that were mentioned earlier. This is just scaremongering and sometimes works well but because time passed we can see it's just not true.

I'm glad you believe that, but Putin has said otherwise. So why did he enter in the first place? You tell me... You keep saying it is a civil war but then say it is not by suggesting Putin just wants a small chunk, can't have it both ways. I have shown the history of how Russia has treated the people there over and over, it's not a civil war. It's a prior aggressor wanting back that they claimed by force in the past too.

You are going in cycles trying to justify the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. They were illegal and destabilised entire areas and destroyed these countries for good. This is something you need to admit.

The Russian-Ukraine is a civil war. Two countries - yes. But the same people, brothers and sisters fighting a senseless war. That's not just my opinion. It's about time the war comes to an end, in fact wars don't last forever.