Thousands Of Young Ukrainian Men Trying To Flee The Country To Avoid Conscription And The War

originally posted by: DBCowboy

As someone who has fought in war, I can say that the shorter the duration, the better.

I hate the way America prolongs #.

It's to make money for the MIC

It's like pharma. They don't want cures for diseases, they want treatments so they have customers for life.

I'm not sure the MIC is making bank on this since most of what we send them is old equipment, maybe in munitions, but everything else has been 20 year old stuff.

There are two ways to end it quickly, give up, or NATO enters the fight and says stop now. We have been watching a WWI scenario of trench warfare with a splattering of homemade drones...geez

On the other side, we got to see the real Russa, and what they have today pales in comparison to what they had 20+ years ago. We see Russia is an old fat military where corruption has eaten away at it for 30 years. This is a war of attrition no doubt about it as Russia has been rather aggressive under Putin and he is not looking at stopping anytime soon.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: DBCowboy

As someone who has fought in war, I can say that the shorter the duration, the better.

I hate the way America prolongs #.

It's to make money for the MIC

It's like pharma. They don't want cures for diseases, they want treatments so they have customers for life.

I'm not sure the MIC is making bank on this since most of what we send them is old equipment, maybe in munitions, but everything else has been 20 year old stuff.

There are two ways to end it quickly, give up, or NATO enters the fight and says stop now. We have been watching a WWI scenario of trench warfare with a splattering of homemade drones...geez

On the other side, we got to see the real Russa, and what they have today pales in comparison to what they had 20+ years ago. We see Russia is an old fat military where corruption has eaten away at it for 30 years. This is a war of attrition no doubt about it as Russia has been rather aggressive under Putin and he is not looking at stopping anytime soon.

NATO will enter the conflict? As what?

Ukraine isn't a NATO member and the US don't wish for a WW3 against Russia and the countries they will align with them.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Consvoli

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Consvoli

I've always been of the mindset, go big or go home.

Either fight to win the war or surrender. America is supporting just enough to prolong the war, but Ukraine needs to win and win decisively.

If you think this way then something must be done to reverse the tide. Ukraine has lost 27% of its territory and so many young Ukrainians have died to the point many other young Ukrainians are fleeing the country so they won't go to war and get killed.

You have any practical ideas? other than admitting Ukraine has lost this war.

Nope.

As someone who has fought in war, I can say that the shorter the duration, the better.

This wisdom goes back thousands of years. Sun Tzu said if you are going to attack, you attack with overwhelming force. A relatively modern example was how we did Desert Storm. We built up such a huge force that some policymakers were crying that it was overkill. When we attacked, our forces were kicking so much ass that the American media, ever the vanguard of America's enemies, were making US out to be the bad guys on the #ing news.

THAT is how you fight a war. It's supposed to be overkill. It's not supposed to be a fair fight. Shorter war = fewer deaths, not just for the militaries involved, but for civilians as well.

But it had other consequences.

I hate the way America prolongs #.

The reason we do this isn't because of "the MIC." It's because of politics. What Bush 41 did in Desert Storm scored us a decisive victory in a short time with a historically low number of casualties--and it cost him re-election.

They called up so many reservists and activated National Guard to build up that force. Then you had the media telling Americans it was another Vietnam and a "bad" war. Since it touched so many families, that sentiment was enough to sink Bush in 1992.

All the presidents since then learned, you have to make it impact as few families as possible. The fewer families with skin in the game, the less votes you're losing. So we half-ass everything and wind up in long, grinding fights that we could win and just choose not to. Over the long run it actually affects more families, but it's a slow simmer instead of the rapid, rolling boil that Desert Storm was.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Where is the difference? Honestly? Whether we are the puppets of the USA or of Russia, the fact is that neither of them gives a damn about us, the population. Neither side can claim to have no blood on their hands.

Germany a fascist # country? You should watch less TV and just ask us people what's going on. Instead of insulting an entire country as a fascist # country. Here you have someone who is proud to be German and I bet you like my answer just as little as DerBeobachter's.

And he is absolutely right. On the one hand you can say they are cowards, on the other hand you can also say that Zelensky people are simply burned in the oven, even children.

So what is your solution?


The oven of war. Translator left that out.

originally posted by: Consvoli

NATO will enter the conflict? As what?

Ukraine isn't a NATO member and the US don't wish for a WW3 against Russia and the countries they will align with them.

Was Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and so on NATO? As for WWIII, Russia can't do WWIII. Also, who is going to align with Russia if we keep the fighting to a defensive posture within Ukraine? If you haven't been watching a number of pro-Russian countries are backing away from Russia.

Anyhow, my post was saying the only ways in how to end it quick.

originally posted by: Naftalin

Germany a fascist # country? You should watch less TV and just ask us people what's going on. Instead of insulting an entire country as a fascist # country. Here you have someone who is proud to be German and I bet you like my answer just as little as DerBeobachter's.

And he is absolutely right. On the one hand you can say they are cowards, on the other hand you can also say that Zelensky people are simply burned in the oven, even children.

So what is your solution?

The oven of war. Translator left that out.

I actually do not think Germany is a fascist sh!thole country, and my post wasn't a statement, but a reply. I was replying to another German who said let Russia take Ukraine because they are a fascist sh!thole country. I was just replying saying the same thing about Germany which could be why Russia decides to attack you all too. They just make up their reasons as they go along.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Also, who is going to align with Russia if we keep the fighting to a defensive posture within Ukraine?

i guess you might be forgetting there's a new axis of evil, ol farty, pooh xi, and iatola assahola and we can't forget the wanna be little kim the rocket man.

bad thing about that for ol farty all three will stab him in the back just as soon as they think the time is right.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Well, you wrote it, but selling it to me as rhetoric doesn't seem sincere to me. But well, only you can know that and I don't know if you always work with such dry sarcasm.

But I agree with you when you say that Russia would use any excuse. I won't go into it any further now because I noticed that 4 pages have passed since the post I responded to. A lot has already been said there.

originally posted by: BernnieJGato

bad thing about that for ol farty all three will stab him in the back just as soon as they think the time is right.

China and NK are not doing crap. China and Russia are not best friends, and China needs to worry about India more than anything else. Anything Russian would be gone very quickly in Ukraine and then Putin would have nothing on his plate.

originally posted by: Naftalin

Well, you wrote it, but selling it to me as rhetoric doesn't seem sincere to me. But well, only you can know that and I don't know if you always work with such dry sarcasm.

I don't really care if I hurt your feelings, I told you the context of it all we can leave it there.

a reply to: Xtrozero

huh? Why do you think you hurt my feelings? Don't always judge others based on your behavior.

For me, that was a completely normal answer to you, with the valid addition that you can always sell everything afterwards as sarcasm or rhetoric.

I even agreed with you about the rest, I don't understand your reaction at all. Are you here to fight or have a chat?

originally posted by: Naftalin
With the valid addition that you can always sell everything afterwards as sarcasm or rhetoric.

"but selling it to me as rhetoric doesn't seem sincere to me"

Let me rephrase my remark. I don't care if I don't seem sincere... Better?

It wasn't sarcasm or rhetorical. I was parroting the other person to show that people's constant narrative that Ukraine is some Fascist sh!thole can easily be used towards any country to invade. So back at you, do you want to fight Russia by proxy or do you want to fight them in Germany?

a reply to: Xtrozero

I don't want war at all, how does that sound?

Yes, it doesn't answer your question, but it doesn't have to. You clearly have a problem and I won't argue with you.

This is not the standard on which I communicate with others. But you may as well not care. I'm curious whether you still need the last word or whether it's good now.

originally posted by: Naftalin

I don't want war at all, how does that sound?

I think that is the point with most. So, what do we do when Russia wants war? We need to remember that Putin invaded and if he didn't there would be no war, so saying you do not want war is moot as war is here. It's like saying you do not want winter and winter still comes.

a reply to: Xtrozero
I don't give answers to rhetorical questions. It has nothing to do with my wishes.

You claim that all the old hardware that the US sends out doesn't make the MIC earn money.

The hardware will be replaced with new hardware. MIC collects data endlessly in this war and you want to tell us all that MIC doesn't have a finger in it and doesn't make any money? Do you know that Ukraine is heavily in debt because of this war?

Whether you want it or not, it happens.

You see, opinions vary.

originally posted by: Naftalin
I don't give answers to rhetorical questions. It has nothing to do with my wishes.

You claim that all the old hardware that the US sends out doesn't make the MIC earn money.

The hardware will be replaced with new hardware. MIC collects data endlessly in this war and you want to tell us all that MIC doesn't have a finger in it and doesn't make any money? Do you know that Ukraine is heavily in debt because of this war?

Whether you want it or not, it happens.

You see, opinions vary.

I don't think the question is rhetorical, Putin has said he would take more and has continually since he been in office, so do you think he will stop at Ukraine? It is all very serious in Poland, for example. I don't know after all Putin has done you don't take him seriously and suggest his future actions are only rhetorical.

As far as the MIC goes new equipment comes every year, so what goes to Ukraine has very little affect on all that. Yes, I do know, they are fighting for their life... Once again we need to focus on who is to blame. It is being suggested that all Russian funds from around the world be frozen and used to pay for what they have done, so we will see how it all turns out.

a reply to: Xtrozero
I don't understand how you can think that Russia could ever somehow get close to the German border when at the same time you see that Russia is having a very difficult time holding positions in Ukraine. For this reason and because I obviously wouldn't want to fight in Germany, it's definitely a rhetorical question and you are aware of it.

.. so what goes to Ukraine has very little affect on all that.

Then back up this statement with a source, otherwise it remains your opinion. You shouldn't have any problems with that.

Once again we need to focus on who is to blame.

What's the point? We all know who started the war.


Have you already been in a war yourself?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Consvoli

NATO will enter the conflict? As what?

Ukraine isn't a NATO member and the US don't wish for a WW3 against Russia and the countries they will align with them.

Was Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and so on NATO? As for WWIII, Russia can't do WWIII. Also, who is going to align with Russia if we keep the fighting to a defensive posture within Ukraine? If you haven't been watching a number of pro-Russian countries are backing away from Russia.

Anyhow, my post was saying the only ways in how to end it quick.

No they were not but they were illegal invasions or attacks. In case you haven't noted the Iraq invasion destabilised and destroyed the country and in Afghanistan the power was given back to the Talibans.

No need for Ukraine to be destabilised further or to lose even more territory This is a civil war imo and it can stop straight away. Ukraine has lost the war and lost territory that will never get back.

The useful idiot Zelensky is willing to sacrifice more of his soldiers in great numbers rather than sign a peace agreement and even negotiate some of the territory back. Russia has achieved their objective (gain of territory) and there is no need for them to fight further. The war is unnecessary and must stop straight away.

originally posted by: Consvoli

Russia has achieved their objective (gain of territory) and there is no need for them to fight further.

I find this a very ignorant statement.

originally posted by: Naftalin
I don't understand how you can think that Russia could ever somehow get close to the German border when at the same time you see that Russia is having a very difficult time holding positions in Ukraine. For this reason and because I obviously wouldn't want to fight in Germany, it's definitely a rhetorical question and you are aware of it.

Russia will take Ukraine over time without our full help, so no I do not think as you suggest above. Then it will be to get Poland back and guess who is next to Poland? Your attitude is to give a bully what they want hoping they don't come back, has that ever worked?

Then back up this statement with a source, otherwise, it remains your opinion. You shouldn't have any problems with that.

We don't give anyone our top-tier equipment. Our 20-year-old equipment is still much better than anything Russia can put on the field. If you care, you can easily go read about what each package has in it and see.

The 40 billion was broken down with 19 billion in military aid to Ukraine, and the other 21 billion is aid all over the world including beefing up our military in the EU, so when people scream, we gave Ukraine 40 billion, it was really about half that in reality.

Now when we look at the 19 billion we see things like...

Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI, $6 billion): This special fund, established in 2016 National Defense Authorization Act (section 1250), provides training, equipment, weapons, logistic support, supplies and services, salaries and stipends, sustainment, and intelligence support to the military and national security forces of Ukraine.

Replenishment of U.S. weapons stocks ($9 billion): This provides money for DOD to replace items sent to Ukraine in the past or in the future.

i.e. more equipment and ammo etc.

Foreign Military Financing Program ($4 billion): This program, run by the Department of State, allows Ukraine and other countries to buy new military equipment, not just get items from existing stocks.

This shows we have been selling them older equipment, this allowed them to buy newer equipment. Also, Ukraine is just part of it...

Funding the U.S. Military Response ($3.9 billion)
The United States has sent about 10,500 troops to Europe and is now rotating those forces.

More of it...we are putting more troops back in the EU

So back to my original point, you may not have read... When people say we are sending 40 billion to Ukraine it isn't pallets of money like many thinks is happening. Germany's 3 billion is pretty much all equipment, but I think you can find that breakdown if you want since you live there.

Have you already been in a war yourself?

I have been in every war/military event the US has had from 1980 to 2017, so a few... I have also been in Poland training Ukrainians. I see Iraq and Afghanistan as worthless events and I wish we never went to either, so I'm not some Warhawk looking for war. I spent about 3 years of my life in those two countries.