The importance of Spiritual Discernment when reading the Bible.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Cant you put two and two together?

Jesus is called the Lamb throughout the NT. The NT consistently tells us that we are made spotless by being washed in His blood.

The OT Law required the blood sacrifice of a SPOTLESS LAMB for the temporary removal of sin.

If Jesus was the Lamb of God, and we are made spotless in His blood, AND Jesus died on Passover, then He is the spotless Lamb that permanently removes sin.

How can we be made spotless in the blood of a blemished lamb? A blemished sacrifice is unexceptable before God.

Jesus was sinless. He was the spotless lamb, and His true believers are washed in His blood.

Im sorry that you cant see that. I dont understand what is preventing you from believing.

And Jesus bore our sins, not the "stigma of sin". Those are your words added to scripture.

By calling Jesus a sinner, you are calling His blood unclean. You reject His payment for sins, therefore you are not saved. If you continue in this manner, what little hope that is left for you will be gone.

I dont think you realize the danger your soul is in.

Im sorry.

jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

You do hold to a cult teaching through Replacement Theology.

What you are according to your Dispensationalist indoctrination calling "Replacement Theology" is not a cult belief, but the fundamental belief of Christianity, which is that the position which was formerly held by the physical Israel, is now held by the spiritual Israel, being God's chosen people, the church.
You seem to have a loyalty to anyone calling themselves a Jew, which I would say is a cult and has nothing to do with normal Christianity.

Sorry that normal Christianity seems so peculiar to you but it is not my fault, you should blame your parents or whoever got you into the cult that you belong to.

edit on 17-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

JMDewey

This isn't normal Christianity you are espousing. The whole of Christendom since the beginning at Antioch, believed that Jesus' death at the cross was atonement for sin, that was whole purpose for sacrifice. The red heifer ceremony, was also for atonement.

Don't you realize that it was what the original argument was about? Not that He was Messiah, but that HE, specifically JESUS was the atonement for sin because HE was the sacrifice. If Jesus WAS the sacrifice, and the atonement, then OT Biblical prophecy was true, namely "they that pierced me shall look upon me and wail".

Who was the prophet talking about? Himself? Who are they that would be looking upon the pierced one? Who was sold for 30 pieces of silver? Which OT prophet was this in reference to?

If you are going to believe in one OT prophecy, you are obligated to believe all of them, even the ones about the return of Christ. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of THESE THINGS saying, "I saw the Lord's RETURN with ten thousands thousands of His saints".

How then you say there will be no returning and yet PAUL specifically mentions the prophecy of Enoch, about RETURN, that means the Lord went, and is returning, because that's what return means...to go away and come back. Paul says this. Paul also says that "GOD hath blinded their eyes, FOR A SEASON". God blinded but God will open them again. Whose? Ours? The Gentiles? The Christians?

If you cannot believe in the returning Christ, the atonement for sin at the cross, the rebuilding of the temple, the War of Armageddon, or any other Biblical prophecy, then you are not a normal Christian, because this has been the foundation of Christianity since the beginning. Oh foolish Galatian, who hath bewitched you that you should turn away from the faith?

You are like those women, ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of Christ. What IS the knowledge of Christ? Is that just knowing He lived at some point in history? A lot of people know that but it doesn't make them believers. I am not a Dispensationalist, I simply believe that as the Lord went, the same way He is coming back.

Oh ye men of Galilee, why stand ye here gazing? THIS same Jesus you see ascending will return in like manner. Not another Jesus, not a type of Jesus, this SAME Jesus. And that's what you are going to have to come to terms with, because this SAME Jesus not only fulfilled prophecy, bore the marks in His hands that the prophets prophesied of, the same was pierced, the same who then prophesied the end of the age. And then shall the end be, but not before He has redeemed Israel that He said He came to seek and save of the lost of the house of Israel.

He's going to redeem them. That's what He came to do and that's what He will do. And one by one, He's leaving us 99% sheep safe in the pen and going out to find the lost one, one by one. So don't tell me I am a Dispensationalist, my Lord is doing what He said He would do and that is redeem Israel. But He does it like He does it for you and me, in the heart and by the Spirit. The Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter days, men would fall away from the faith, rejecting sound doctrine. Timothy 4:1

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Cant you put two and two together?

Do you mean making giant leaps in logic to create new doctrines that the Bible doesn't teach?
No thanks, you can rely on man-made religion, I will pass on that.

Jesus is called the Lamb throughout the NT.

I can think of three, by John the Baptist, by Paul, and by Peter.

The NT consistently tells us that we are made spotless by being washed in His blood.

That is in hymn books in Protestant churches.

The OT Law required the blood sacrifice of a SPOTLESS LAMB for the temporary removal of sin.

Could you please point out where I can find that passage in the OT?

If Jesus was the Lamb of God, and we are made spotless in His blood, AND Jesus died on Passover, then He is the spotless Lamb that permanently removes sin.

"Lamb of God" I take as a reference to Isaiah 53 and the Suffering Servant parable.
Passover is not strictly speaking a sin sacrifice but a sign of membership in Israel.
Passover would have been the best time for the Jews to be exposed to the sight of the crucified savior.
The method of removal of sin is repentance.

How can we be made spotless in the blood of a blemished lamb? A blemished sacrifice is unacceptable before God.

You just answered your own question.
We do not offer to God, Jesus, as a sacrifice.
God sacrificed His Son for us.

Jesus was sinless. He was the spotless lamb, and His true believers are washed in His blood.
I'm sorry that you cant see that. I don't understand what is preventing you from believing.

I could "see" it if it was a quote from the Bible rather than a forum post.
Just quote the Bible if you want anyone other than yourself to believe.

And Jesus bore our sins, not the "stigma of sin". Those are your words added to scripture.

Alternatively, read it as "imputed unrighteousness".
It does not say that Jesus sinned, and I am not saying he did, but according to those authorized to know and teach the law and to make judgments concerning it, he was deemed a sinner and deserving of death.
How else do you understand "he was made sin"?
Jesus was made the epitome of a sinner, by all appearances.

You reject His payment for sins, therefore you are not saved.

Only according to you, as far as I can see.
I don't anywhere see the Bible saying that.

I don't think you realize the danger your soul is in.

I very clearly see the danger that your soul is in, sadly, otherwise I wouldn't go to all this trouble to try to point it out to you and to anyone else who might read this.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Jesus' death at the cross was atonement for sin

Of course that is true, but what does that mean exactly.
As Martin Luther interprets it from Paul, Jesus himself became the Mercy Seat that we go to meet God.
We can not be free from sin without God meeting us in the "eternal spirit", as the Book of Hebrews says.
Us, Jesus, and God, meet together in this one place, not a physical place, but where eternity comes together in a spiritual way.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Jesuslives4u

 

There are many verses in the Bible that state Jesus paid for our sins.

Saying that "we were bought" is a long way from saying "Jesus paid for our sins".

"the forgiveness of our trespasses" in Ephesians 1:7 should be an indication of how sins are dealt with, there is no demand for payment.

Romans 8:2 - For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

This is what frees us, following the spirit into righteousness.

edit on 17-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

So if I bought a loaf of bread at a local store, was it paid for?

I believe the answer is clear.

Jesus paid for our sins with his death on the cross. Including your sins and you were not even born! Praise God!

BUT like everything else there is a "catch".......does this mean everyone's sins are paid? Those people who reject Christ, his sacrifice, his resurrection can not and will not be saved from their sins because they have rejected and disowned the one who paid for their sins.

Those who pray to God and ask God to forgive them for their sins.....they are not forgiven of their sin. No payment was made.

Those who pray to God and ask God to forgive them of their sins in the name of Jesus Christ.....their sins are forgiven because payment was made.

WARNING: God can see what is in every man's heart. Lip service will not save you. Simply repeating the name of Jesus still does not save you from your sins. You have to mean it. Believe it..... another words...FAITH. God can see man's heart and whether he is sincere or not. If you repented (stop sinning) and truly reach out to God..he is there waiting for you with open arms.

No more animal sacrifices. A covenant made between man (Moses/Jews) and God. A covenant made so that man's sins would be forgiven when animals were killed before an altar and then offered up to God. Animal sacrifices are not accepted by God any longer. They are meaningless to God.

Jesus sacrifice is a new covenant. One between "God the father" and him (the son) which opens up a way for mankind to regain their position "as a child of God" with God the Father but ONLY through the sacrifice (the son) that Jesus paid. All who believe and put their faith in for what the son (Jesus) has done, the father will forgive and FORGET their sins.

This is why the blood of the lamb (Jesus blood) is so precious......his life, his death, and his resurrection.

Lets not forget that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Do you know what that means?

God bless you.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Here ya go JMDewey.

1 Peter 1:19

but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:

jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Jesus' death at the cross was atonement for sin

Of course that is true, but what does that mean exactly.
As Martin Luther interprets it from Paul, Jesus himself became the Mercy Seat that we go to meet God.
We can not be free from sin without God meeting us in the "eternal spirit", as the Book of Hebrews says.
Us, Jesus, and God, meet together in this one place, not a physical place, but where eternity comes together in a spiritual way.

Do you interpret from Martin Luther's interpretation? Martin Luther said a lot of things that were very anti-Semitic, encouraged the killing of Jews and burning of synagogues, all under the guise of his Christian interpretation of Christianity, but at the same time nailing his thesis against selling forgiveness. He said

"Man is justified by faith only and not by the man made works of man.

, OK so he believed in faith. Was Luther justified in his faith to encourage others to kill Jews? Did he have grace even though he encouraged others to break the commandment "thou shalt not kill"? Luther was an Augustinian, you are as well. With the many quotes you make from Augustine and the anti-Semitism you have displayed in calling me part of a "cult" because I am not anti-Semitic.

This is Martin Luther's words from Jews and Their Lies

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians,

We are Christians if we burn their synagogues in honor of our Lord? What grace from Jesus allows this? You have Luther grace to be anti-Semitic toward my ancestry?

You can't justify Luther in this, you can't say he had grace and I daresay, neither had he forgiveness. And that's the Christianity you ascribe to and then pretend you aren't indoctrinated. When he stands before the judgement seat of Christ, as the Bible says we all will be, he will be condemned by his words. Matthew 12:33-37

33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

You need to take the whole Bible, not just some people's interpretation of it. It was an evil thing to encourage the burning and killing of other human beings based on their religion. The abundance of his heart was shown, and this man you believe above knowing Jesus Christ?

reply to post by WarminIndy

Do you interpret from Martin Luther's interpretation?

He just happens to be the best known theologion who early on came to that conclusion concerning the use of the word Atonement by Paul.
Most later serious biblical scholars agree with it, that Paul was using it in two key places in his writings to refer to the Mercy Seat.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Here ya go JMDewey.

Here I go . . what?
I already mentioned that.
And so Jesus led a righteous life.

". . . you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors . . .".

I already mentioned this, that Jesus' death redeemed us from the old written Mosaic Law.

jmdewey60
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

Here ya go JMDewey.

Here I go . . what?
I already mentioned that.
And so Jesus led a righteous life.

". . . you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors . . .".

I already mentioned this, that Jesus' death redeemed us from the old written Mosaic Law.

edit on 18-3-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You asked for a passage that calls Jesus the spotless lamb. Well, I gave it to you...1Peter 1:19.

We have all given you sufficient evidence that Jesus died for our sins as the spotless Lamb of God.

reply to post by Jesuslives4u

Jesus paid for our sins with his death on the cross. Including your sins and you were not even born! Praise God!

This is a theory that has already been brought up a few times on this thread.
This is a sort of human approach to digesting the material of the Bible without really understanding what it means.
You should just admit that this is all it is, if you want to go on repeating it.
Add the disclaimer that anyone hearing this should look at the Bible themselves to see if it says that.

Simply repeating the name of Jesus still does not save you from your sins.

The way to be "saved from your sins" is according to the Bible through repentance.
To be cleansed of sin is to come to the state of not committing sins.
You can't say, "Jesus died for the sins that I would commit, before I even was born in order to commit any", and then think that therefore all future sins are already forgiven.

Jesus sacrifice is a new covenant. One between "God the father" and him (the son) . . .

Where do you get that from?
A covenant is between us and those who believe in Jesus.
Jesus is the mediator of the covenant.
The "covenant" analogy is to contrast Christianity with the old written Mosaic Law system, which was mediated by Moses and angels.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

You asked for a passage that calls Jesus the spotless lamb. Well, I gave it to you...1Peter 1:19.

You:
"The OT Law required the blood sacrifice of a SPOTLESS LAMB for the temporary removal of sin."
Me:
"Could you please point out where I can find that passage in the OT?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

A few lines above that, in my post, I mentioned that Jesus was called the lamb by John the Baptist, by Paul, and by Peter.
When I said, Peter, I meant 1Peter 1:19.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I will give you something better than an OT passage. I'll give you NT quoting OT to prove that spotless Lambs were sacrificed for temporary removal of sin.

Hebrews 10:1-18

1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; 6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. 7 “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’” 8 After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 “THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,” He then says, 17 “AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.” 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Couple that with 1Peter 1:19, and Jesus is the spotless Lamb that paid for ALL sins, once and for all.

Its right there in the text. There is no way around it. Anything else is calling God a liar.

jmdewey60
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

You asked for a passage that calls Jesus the spotless lamb. Well, I gave it to you...1Peter 1:19.

You:
"The OT Law required the blood sacrifice of a SPOTLESS LAMB for the temporary removal of sin."
Me:
"Could you please point out where I can find that passage in the OT?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

A few lines above that, in my post, I mentioned that Jesus was called the lamb by John the Baptist, by Paul, and by Peter.
When I said, Peter, I meant 1Peter 1:19.

JMDewey

As you can't embrace the Hebraic concept of atonement, because you prefer Greek, then let's examine the Greek...

Propitiation: from the Greek hilasterion which directly means "to appease". So, the atonement was to appease God.

There is frequent similar use of hilasterion in the Septuagint, Exodus 25:18 ff. The mercy seat was sprinkled with atoning blood on the Day of Atonemen

As hilasterion was used in the Septuagint, regarding the Day of Atonement rites, the word for mercy seat or place of offering is in Hebrew kapporeth and directly translated from hilasterion, to appease. Either way, Greek or Hebrew, atonement was for appeasing for the purpose of forgiveness.

Kapphoreth means "to cover", and exactly what does that mean? You are covered by mercy, through the sacrificial atonement in your place. So if you want to assert the Greek definition, the Greek has the same meaning as the Hebrew. And if you are looking for atonement meaning outside of the Bible, then you will have to look at Greek paganism.

There are no references to substitutionary atonement in Greek mythology, the atonements made were by the individuals for the individuals. Therefore, if you are applying Greek mythological concepts to the Hebrew concept of atonement, then Jesus died for Himself and His own sins, by appeasing God for His own sin. The bulls, goats and sheep were substitutionary for the whole of Israel. That is not found in Greek mythology, which was the dominant religion of Greek pre-Christian.

The reason for the sheep, because Jesus died at Passover. Had he died on Yom Kippur, then the discussion of bulls and goats should be used. As it was Passover, let's see why it is important to sacrifice sheep.

Jewish Passover and Sacrifice

The sacrificial animal, which was either a lamb or kid, was necessarily a male, one year old, and without blemish.

And here's why it's important to understand that it must fall within Jewish understanding, not Greek

It had to be without spot or blemish according to Levitical law.

Exodus 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Was Isaiah performing rites against Levitical law, as a Levitical priest?

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


JMDewey is too Greekified to understand.

He refuses to acknowledge the foundations of Christianity, because to him, all Jews are in an evil cult, but the disciples were Jewish apostates and no way could they ever be Jewish, but Greek Christians.

Had it not been for Judaism, there would have been no Greek Christians, because they were all pagans, even at the time Lydia was converted from paganism to Christianity. But Timothy's mother and grandmother were both Jewish women who believed in Jesus, they just lived in an Hellenized culture, as Jewish believers in Jesus.

JmDewey is having problems reconciling the Jewish origins of Christianity.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

I will give you something better than an OT passage. I'll give you NT quoting OT to prove that spotless Lambs were sacrificed for temporary removal of sin.

Where is the actual commandment to do that?

What you are quoting is God's displeasure with Israel's thinking that they could go on sinning as long as they kept making sacrifices.

This is not an endorsement for sacrificing to get rid of "sin guilt".

It is a request before Israel itself is "sacrificed", to stop sinning.

Jesus' sacrifice opens up a better way to be free of sin guilt by not sinning because now God can interact with us spiritually for the sake of Jesus to have the ability to be righteous people.

reply to post by WarminIndy

As hilasterion was used in the Septuagint, regarding the Day of Atonement rites, the word for mercy seat or place of offering is in Hebrew kapporeth and directly translated from hilasterion, to appease.

The idea was to make a comparison between the physical things of the former religion, and the spiritual things of the new religion, and how the old is obsolete in the reality of the new, better thing.
So there isn't a literal on-to-one correlation because it is just a metaphor.
I have said this before and will repeat it again, some people just don't get metaphor and can only see things in the literal, and so this is, in my opinion, the source for all the disagreements that I get to what I say about religion and the Bible on this forum.

The reason for the sheep, because Jesus died at Passover.

The Gospels don't say that he was killed on the day of Passover.
Regardless of that, even if he was, then what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything.
Passover was when there was more people in Jerusalem than at any other time, and the idea was his being "lifted up", both literally and figuratively.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis of propitiation and atonement. What people fail to realize about Christianity is, the most obvious thing: that while religion is man's attempt to seek God's aprobation by hypocritical works, Christianity is not religion, but a relationship with God through the work of Christ on the cross.

The gospel is offensive to the nature of man. For the past 6,122 years, sin has been our nature, and hell our birth-rite. Christ changed all that 4,136 years after the Fall. Only those of us that belong to Christ seek shelter in Christ. Pre-destination and free will are two sides of the same coin. That is the lesson proven by the recent activity on this thread.

reply to post by WarminIndy

because to him, all Jews are in an evil cult

I never said anything like that.
This is just your way of dealing with a situation that you have no solution for, which is going to personal attacks through false accusations.

Dispensationalism is the cult which I think is the antichrist because it worships man above God by saying the opposite of what Jesus told Nicodemus, that being physically born to a particular bloodline does not make you a member of the kingdom of God.

jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

because to him, all Jews are in an evil cult

I never said anything like that.
This is just your way of dealing with a situation that you have no solution for, which is going to personal attacks through false accusations.

Dispensationalism is the cult which I think is the antichrist because it worships man above God by saying the opposite of what Jesus told Nicodemus, that being physically born to a particular bloodline does not make you a member of the kingdom of God.

JmDewey

Throughout the time I have interacted with you on ATS, you have consistently accused me of being in a cult, being in a "Jewish cult" and "indoctrinated through a Jewish cult".

In your last statement, I believe you are very clear in your accusation against my ancestry. I am also descended of French Huguenots and Catholics, could you muster sympathy at all for my Jewish ancestors?

You are also a Dispensationlist because of your belief in grace to the Christians and those must be Greek. What did Jesus go on to say? Born again? What does that mean, JmDewey? Have you known Christ by knowing Christ by relationship or is this something you just read in a book?