The US's changing morals is a good thing

So I see many threads these days decrying America's falling morals and how we are on some sort of trip to hell for things like gay marriage, over-sexualization on television, drugs, crime, guns, homosexuality in general, etc. So I am making this thread as a counterpoint to those threads.

None of the things that people use as evidence of our declining morals are really declining morals. Just changes in how we view the world as well as what is and isn't socially acceptable. With restrictions on these morals being lifted, we have benefited greatly from these things. Without women's suffrage, we wouldn't have many of our great female leaders, thinkers, and inventors who are shaping our country. Here is a list of female inventors of the modern era. These people invented many objects that you and I use everyday. Would their contributions to society be possible if we maintained the views towards women we had back in the 1800's? Homosexuality is another great example here. How many great actors or athletes come out of the closet? Neil Patrick Harris is gay and he is a damn good actor and pretty funny to boot.

Over-sexualization is another issue I see people complain about. But why? Why are we as humans so embarrassed of our naked bodies, especially the erogenous zones? Clothes make sense in that they are great for keeping us warm or unexposed to the elements, but as a means to cover our shame? Why? Why is this even the case to begin with? Every female has the same body parts just as every male has the same body parts. All humans share mostly the same body parts, therefore if you've seen yourself naked, you pretty much know what anyone else looks naked. So what's the problem?

The root of this issue probably lies with humans' views of sex. Culture tends to look at sex as an ugly act, but it is anything but ugly. It is beautiful in every sense of the word. The purpose of it is to create new life, but its side effects make the two engagers feel intense pleasure and satisfaction. These two things make it a great physical act to show your love for another, but there are not instructions for sex. Sex doesn't have to be a demonstration of two people's love. It could just be two people doing something that feels good. In contrast to this, we have violence ALL over television and media which most Americans won't even bat an eye to watch. How is it that people view a nipple or two as offensive, but watching John McClane shoot up a building full of bad guys is perfectly acceptable (keep in mind that the plot to that movie is nonsensical and would NEVER happen in real life, cause if it did those bank robbers would be the worst bad guys ever)?

I will touch briefly on drugs, but since I don't want to have the thread removed, it will be short and very abstract. Drugs have only been illegal for a short period of time. Society viewing them as bad is only a recent view. People have been doing them forever and they haven't destroyed any other societies. Even the Opium Wars in China didn't destroy that country (sure it set them back quite a bit, but last I checked China is still a country and a world power).

Homosexuality and gay marriage are two other hot buttons that these people bring up as evidence of our falling morals. But to that I say, who gave you or whatever institution you represent (usually religious) authority over what is and isn't a real marriage? Last I checked, societies have been getting married all over the world since we climbed down from the trees. Homosexuality is documented in pretty much every society in existence past and present. No god of any religion has successfully wiped it out or even taken an interest in it enough to punish these "heathens." So why are people so opposed to it? Because its unnatural in their eyes? Their sex cannot make a new life? So what? Their actions aren't hurting you or anyone you love, so what does it matter?

Now I know what people are going to say in response to my thread here. They will point to examples like Milley Cyrus twerking on stage or some other degenerate act that some famous person is doing. But to all of that I say that there is no such thing as a 100% pure concept. You are going to get bad things with any set of morals a society adopts. There will always be people who will take advantage of things to profit off of. But I see more people as happy when they are free to pursue whatever makes them happy. If it isn't negatively affecting someone else, then who are we to say that they shouldn't do it? If the person is happy and content, then that is all that matters in the end.

The other issue my detractors will bring up is corruption, but corruption will arise regardless of the state of the society; it is inevitable. It effects everything. But to view corruption as a result of looser morals is just trying to reclassify a reality as a symptom. To all the people who will disagree with my OP, I put forth a challenge. Please produce ONE example of a society with strict morals that you believe in that has been successful and not prone to overt corruption. I put forth this challenge, because I know that there doesn't exist a society that hasn't been influenced by mass corruption in the past. Religious, secular, or in between, corruption has wormed its way into all societies. To argue that a rise in corruption is due to lower morals is just ignoring reality.

Well, I am getting sick of the commercials on TV to boost your sex Testosterone safely. When you get older, you shouldn't be driven by testosterone. We should be getting smarter, not hornier, as we age. I don't think that we need to be seeing women wearing underwear in commercials either.

We do not need a bunch of congressmen in our government that can be influenced by a pretty face. I see that morals are important, especially in older people. Sure the young can be a little wild when their hormones are flowing, that is part of life. But this has to end when they become adults. What happened to the words "growing up" Everyone wants to be young nowadays, horemones and pheromones flying. Even the grandparents are brainwashed.

Maybe the minimum age of someone working for the FDA and congress should be raised to eighty. At least they are grown up at that age. Unless they are taking things that raise their hormone levels that is.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


There is one area I would disagree with you on. It has nothing to do with Religious memes which are merely distractions. As you point out, many are counter-intuitive and/or trivial.

The meme of American Corporate Imperialism is out of control, self-destructive and frankly, dangerous for the rest of the world.
I believe this culture has been programmed, by corporations to adopt the value hierarchy of corporations. Corporations are essentially amoral machines. And that's what US citizens have become.

American Christianity has been reformed in a corporate friendly form and people just went along with it. Social Darwinism is a corporate value and of course, the authoritarians eat that up. The widespread adoption of the profit ethic and focus on the "bottom line" really didn't exist until about 160 years ago. Things like trickle down economics, rewarding the winners, applying the law based on financial means, might makes right, collateral damage, are all examples of terminal decay in the moral structure of this culture.

I used to think the board game monopoly was harmless. Now I know I was wrong. Sex rules and puritan fetishists are merely a distraction the ruling elites channel for their own benefit.

The broad definition of "morals" is very skewed IMHO.......
Why can it be right to let the third world starve>?Or allow the children to suffer from easily preventable diseases?
What kind of morals does the business world preach?...and what lack of morals do they practice?
Same goes for the hypocrisy called government......
The idea that we actually have morals is fallacious......at best....
The ONLY morals is see around me are SELFISH ones.....

rickymouse
Well, I am getting sick of the commercials on TV to boost your sex Testosterone safely. When you get older, you shouldn't be driven by testosterone. We should be getting smarter, not hornier, as we age.

Can one not grow smarter and hornier at the same time? Is there something wrong with enjoying something in your old age that you enjoyed when you are younger? I didn't know that being horny made you dumber.

I don't think that we need to be seeing women wearing underwear in commercials either.

Why? Care to address my point about how using clothes to cover up a person's shame is silly?

We do not need a bunch of congressmen in our government that can be influenced by a pretty face. I see that morals are important, especially in older people. Sure the young can be a little wild when their hormones are flowing, that is part of life. But this has to end when they become adults. What happened to the words "growing up" Everyone wants to be young nowadays, horemones and pheromones flying. Even the grandparents are brainwashed.

Obsession with being young isn't a new thing. Have you heard of Elizabeth Bathory? She was a countess who reportedly bathed in many young girls' blood to try to maintain a youthful appearance for her husband.

Maybe the minimum age of someone working for the FDA and congress should be raised to eighty. At least they are grown up at that age. Unless they are taking things that raise their hormone levels that is.

Stupidity isn't age related. There are plenty of smart, young people just as there are plenty of old, dumb people.

What I object strongest to, personally, isn't the overall shifts in society for changing values and morals. It has to come eventually on some things, and was very overdue on others. What those things are, tends to vary by individual perception but most, if not all of us can think of a few to fall into that category I'll bet.

What I have the biggest problem with is that it's not even close to focused in correction or adjustment for any purpose...good OR bad. It's an orgy of hedonism without limits.

No society which forsakes it's basic values and sense of culture or identity has lasted long afterward. If there are exceptions, I'm entirely unaware of them above the level of a tribe or commune for size.

We needed some of the prudish attitudes to modernize or at least stop making basket cases out of people for our own bodies and sense of self. Yet...free for all comes to be free for none, eventually while values can become something we long for and find no easy way back to.

I'd say we should always be careful what we wish for, as we may well get far more of it than is healthy.

reply to post by InverseLookingGlass


I would say that your points are more a result of overt corruption than degrading morals. Look at Europe of the Middle Ages. A largely religious society that imposed its forceful will on other parts of the world, adopting society damaging policies, let their own populous' starve in favor of the nobles, killed non-believers, and more. The majority population at the time was led to believe that this was the right way to act, just like in our country. Heck most witch hunts originated from villages and not from authoritative individuals. What is going on in our country is just another example of bad people influencing society.

Tho i agree with most of your things you mentioned, i do disagree with "over sexualization" is a good thing.

> In my opinion < Sex should not be displayed and it should never be "casual" things you do with someone to feel good. I look at sex as both mental and physical connection with someone who is not casual. It is disgusting to me when it is just done to "get off", Tho i don't care or judge the people who are promiscuous because i will never be like that in my life.

The 2nd thing that is wrong with "over sexualization" is that kids(age 11-15) would assume it is perfectly okay to do it , when they are not ready for any responsibility, both physcially or mentally. This is nothing to do with sexual education which i agree with.

I do not think making sex into something casual is a good thing.

This is coming from a person who aligns with many liberal vales.

Wrabbit2000
What I object strongest to, personally, isn't the overall shifts in society for changing values and morals. It has to come eventually on some things, and was very overdue on others. What those things are, tends to vary by individual perception but most, if not all of us can think of a few to fall into that category I'll bet.

What I have the biggest problem with is that it's not even close to focused in correction or adjustment for any purpose...good OR bad. It's an orgy of hedonism without limits.

No society which forsakes it's basic values and sense of culture or identity has lasted long afterward. If there are exceptions, I'm entirely unaware of them above the level of a tribe or commune for size.

I disagree. America was founded by Englishmen forsaking many English its basic values and sense of culture. Puritans came here for religious freedom. We rejected the idea of a monarchy. At the time we adopted isolationist policy which was an exact opposite of English values.

The Russian aristocracy was overthrown and Communism was installed into the country. The USSR lasted for close to a century before falling apart due to lack of money. Hey, look at the Cuban revolution or the Chinese adopting communism. North Korea and Vietnam are both (recently) Communist as well. These are all examples of existing countries that in the past have changed their values, culture or identity and have lasted for a long time or are still around today.

We needed some of the prudish attitudes to modernize or at least stop making basket cases out of people for our own bodies and sense of self. Yet...free for all comes to be free for none, eventually while values can become something we long for and find no easy way back to.

I'd say we should always be careful what we wish for, as we may well get far more of it than is healthy.

Or not, Japan has gone through several cultural changes within the last 200 or so years. First a feudalistic society, then an empire, and now a democracy. Through each change, the Japanese have maintained their sense of duty to their country. Even with their current democracy and all the stories of the crazy stuff coming out of that country (mostly Tokyo), they still manage to support their system. Japan is sitting about the same in individual freedoms and rights as the US is sitting right now, by the way.

luciddream
Tho i agree with most of your things you mentioned, i do disagree with "over sexualization" is a good thing.

> In my opinion < Sex should not be displayed and it should never be "casual" things you do with someone to feel good. I look at sex as both mental and physical connection with someone who is not casual. It is disgusting to me when it is just done to "get off", Tho i don't care or judge the people who are promiscuous because i will never be like that in my life.

The 2nd thing that is wrong with "over sexualization" is that kids(age 11-15) would assume it is perfectly okay to do it , when they are not ready for any responsibility, both physcially or mentally. This is nothing to do with sexual education which i agree with.

I do not think making sex into something casual is a good thing.

This is coming from a person who aligns with many liberal vales.

edit on 2/26/2014 by luciddream because: (no reason given)

The promiscuous vs non promiscuous is a choice and do not really harm anyone if you are not manipulative. Let the promiscuous be with the promiscuous and the non promiscuous be with the non promiscuous. The problem I agree with you is that there is a push by some for the non promiscuous to be promiscuous and that is not acceptable in my book. Some want to bang like gorillaz and some like to go the spiritual connection between 2 persons.

reply to post by luciddream


I think the argument that young people not knowing about sex is flawed. For millenia, people have been getting married in their teens. Some as low as 10, 11, or 12. This still even goes on in other countries. Now being married is obviously not evidence of the two partaking in sexual acts, but I'd say that the odds are pretty good that this is the case. Teenage pregnancy isn't a new thing either.

Animals don't care who sees them do it or at what age they do it, yet we are SOOO adamant that it needs to be between two consenting adults (I agree with the consenting part, rape is never a good thing, since as I eluded to in the OP the goal of society should be to make as many happy as possible). I understand that children, particularly teenagers may not understand the consequences that go with unsafe sex, but that is on the parents to teach them about it. Parents spend so much time being afraid to teach their children about sex, then they learn about it on their own and end up making mistakes when they partake in it. Delaying teaching your children about sex isn't going to delay when they actually learn about it. It's going to happen, and it makes more sense to get a jump on that knowledge before they go in unprepared.

The real issue is not changing morals, the issue is the reason for which those morals are being changed.

There is an agenda at work to destroy the family, erode religion, and chip away at traditional values. This isn't some inevitable progression of human evolution; this is social engineering at work. There are people in very high places setting these plans, and you'd best believe they don't have humanity's best interests at heart.

Before his death, Aaron Russo exposed the depths of this corruption. The Rockefellers funded the woman's rights movement--not to "liberate" women, but to increase the tax base and move children earlier into the state-run education (read: indoctrination) system. The Rockefellers funded the education system--not to give Americans a broader education and increase intelligence, but to create the Gamma/Delta/Epsilon slave-castes from Huxley's Brave New World so they'd have a near-illiterate and functionally retarded pool of workers to draw upon, slaves who could be used by the system, but who would never be able (or think to!) rebel against it.

Believe me, the people pushing these social issues do not have our best interests at heart. So when TPTB start hypersexualizing children (again, this is straight from the Huxley Brave New World playbook) or pushing a homosexual agenda (a divide and conquer scheme to fragment and polarize opposition), the motives of these people are the same. They seek to retain their control at our expense. They seek to fragment and divide and separate us further, all at a time when humanity should be coming together to fight our real enemies:

Them.

It's a tough call but anything that leads America away from the Old Testament is a good thing. I mean at face value most of the ten commandments are good, but as noted below.
1. You shall have no other gods before Me. This one needs to go. If you're not a Christian...
2. You shall not make idols. This one needs to be changed. What is an Idol? A false god? Again, if you're not a Christian this causes hatred, friction and/or animosity. Or does this mean, as I believe, distractions as I'll say below.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain. This one needs to go.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. This one needs to go, but most take this to mean...take a day off from work for your mental health. so we'll change it.
5. Honor your father and your mother. Sure, who wouldn't want that, unless they're bad people.
6. You shall not murder. We all agree there, murder is not good.
7. You shall not commit adultery. We agree this is not a good thing.
8. You shall not steal. We can agree there.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Lying is always bad.
10. You shall not covet. We can agree there too.

So let's change them.

1. You can worship any god you want as long as you don't force or try to force your religion or religious beliefs or laws on another.
2. You shall not be distracted with sexuality, mindless games, silly books, magazines, porn, fame and famous people. Don't worship famous people as gods!
3. You may curse and swear and use any gods name in vain as often as you wish, just try to be kind to others and not hurt their feelings.
4. Take one day off a week to relax. You shall do no work on Sunday!
5. Honor your mother and father unless they were bad people. But embrace your family...your brothers, your sisters, daughters, sons, uncles, nieces, friends and loved ones. Don't criticize families that don't fall under your model. It's not our job to judge others.
6. Don't murder, unless it's self defense and even then look for the peaceful less lethal way out if possible.
7. Don't cheat on your spouse or lover, there's usually a psychological reason for this. Something's not right in your life that causes you to do this. Don't emotionally hurt your lover.
8. Don't steal.
9. Don't lie.
10. Remember that unless you are lacking in security, housing, food or any of the essentials for a healthy and happy life don't get sucked into consumerism. you don't need the newest ipad, the fake boobs, the expensive makeup, the new Mercedes, the expensive sandals vacation. You don't need it. don't covet it.

There that about covers it.

Now let's clear something up. homosexuality is a lot more complicated then just waking up one day and making a sexual choice. I think I speak for God when I say this new morality of civil rights, no slaves, the same rights for everyone on the planet no matter their sexual orientation, race, religion, ethnicity, or country of origin is a good thing. There is no "homosexual agenda" ...homosexuals are trying to stop discrimination. That' is not a weird anti family agenda. Carry on. Oh and stay the hell away from Arizona. They're a a little crazy down there.

There's a big difference between"people's"morals as opposed to Washington's,Wall Street's and Madison Avenues morals.The latter being that they basically don't have anything we call morality and also have an over riding agenda that prohibits that collective from exercising such goodwill.
As for questionable TV commercials the most bizarre start around 2am till around 6am when"normal"people start getting up.Ugh!!!

Krazysh0t
reply to post by luciddream

 

For millenia, people have been getting married in their teens. Some as low as 10, 11, or 12. This still even goes on in other countries.

Of course that is true, my grandmother got married at 16, my grandfather was 18. Can i say a 16 yr old from the year 2014, is equivalent to a 16 yr old in 1915? Physically maybe, but mentally? i highly doubt it.

People matured early back then, handled task much greater, supported families in their teenage years, became a "man" at 16.

Teenage pregnancy isn't a new thing either.

Its not new, but its not healthy or good should be encouraged either, and the consequences are not good for the mother or the child for the reasons mentioned above.

Animals don't care who sees them do it or at what age they do it, yet we are SOOO adamant that it needs to be between two consenting adults

We are animals but we are much more developed. Animals(and some humans) Rape, kill and do other atrocities.

Animals do it because they do for procreation(except few) and dominance. Animals also know when the other is ready to mate and they do so with scent are pheromones... this way rape, incest and mating with animals that havn't "matured" can be prevented.

therealguyfawkes
The real issue is not changing morals, the issue is the reason for which those morals are being changed.

There is an agenda at work to destroy the family, erode religion, and chip away at traditional values. This isn't some inevitable progression of human evolution; this is social engineering at work. There are people in very high places setting these plans, and you'd best believe they don't have humanity's best interests at heart.

The definition of a family is defined by society. Back in the old days, families used to take care of the grandparents and all lived in the same house. These days, we ship them to nursing homes after they lose the ability to live on their own. Therefore the degradation of the family isn't a new thing. It's been going on for awhile now.

Erode religion? Besides as a basis to make people feel better about the spiritual, what good is it? It certainly likes to push its beliefs onto others and is definitely one of the reasons I made this thread. Sorry buddy, I disagree with you completely here. Nothing could be better than the erosion of religion.

What traditional values do you disagree with being chipped away? This is a vague statement and not to mention, one person's traditional values could differ immensely from another person's traditional values.

Before his death, Aaron Russo exposed the depths of this corruption. The Rockefellers funded the woman's rights movement--not to "liberate" women, but to increase the tax base and move children earlier into the state-run education (read: indoctrination) system. The Rockefellers funded the education system--not to give Americans a broader education and increase intelligence, but to create the Gamma/Delta/Epsilon slave-castes from Huxley's Brave New World so they'd have a near-illiterate and functionally retarded pool of workers to draw upon, slaves who could be used by the system, but who would never be able (or think to!) rebel against it.

Believe me, the people pushing these social issues do not have our best interests at heart. So when TPTB start hypersexualizing children (again, this is straight from the Huxley Brave New World playbook) or pushing a homosexual agenda (a divide and conquer scheme to fragment and polarize opposition), the motives of these people are the same. They seek to retain their control at our expense. They seek to fragment and divide and separate us further, all at a time when humanity should be coming together to fight our real enemies:

Them.

edit on 26-2-2014 by therealguyfawkes because: (no reason given)

That could be the case, but I find Infowars and other Alex Jones related sources to be dubious at best. But then again, I don't need a wacky conspiracy theorist to tell me that people in power want to maintain their power at all costs. It is a state of reality. But while you consider this a sinister agenda, I consider this just the natural result of corruption, something I talked about in my OP.

Hundreds of thousands of years ago, upon the plains of Africa man slept with whatever woman he found attractive. Mankind wasn't aware of exactly how a female got pregnant, and everyone pretty much slept with everyone else. There was no such thing as monogamy -- and we as a species lived like this for tens of thousands of years.

There wasn't "she's MY woman" or "he's MY man" in our formative years after descending out of the trees. It was only much, much later after the rise of a male-dominated culture that things like personal possessions became the new norm.

We as a species have lived far longer in a world where no one owned anything, and no one belonged to anyone. Orgies were very common, and any forethought to "procreation" was outside of our ancestors understanding of biology. People in those days weren't having sex just to procreate -- it was fun and pleasurable and their hormones/instincts drove them to it.

It's interesting to note that monogamy really only started to take off after permanent settlements, and the domestication of cattle began. Once mankind had food and shelter in abundance, more mental energy could be focused on the social group itself. Man started to notice that if only he had sex with a certain woman, it was HIS child that was subsequently born.

So, in short -- for all our taboos about sex (the guilt, shame, embarrassment, ect) -- these are all very recent man-made constructs, designed to dominate and control the weaker sex and populations at large.

Humans today get themselves so tweaked around and worked up over these self-imposed stances on sexuality. It's quite funny IMO.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


My point is: Anything the social engineers push upon us, we should resist. Any way in which they try to shape and control our behavior is never for our benefit--or the benefit of humanity. It's merely to oppress, to divide, to repress and conquer.

So because of these nefarious motives underlying the change in moral, no... the changing morals pressed upon us by social engineers are NOT good things.

When it comes to "values"...

Values are meant to be stripped away and replaced when deemed out dated and of no further use. I would point to many of the "values" and beliefs of the Old Testament that most Christians disregard.

For forward progress to maintain momentum, we as a species must challenge our own beliefs and not decent into moral stagnation.

Who wants to live in Pleasantville anyway? Certainly not myself.

luciddream
Of course that is true, my grandmother got married at 16, my grandfather was 18. Can i say a 16 yr old from the year 2014, is equivalent to a 16 yr old in 1915? Physically maybe, but mentally? i highly doubt it.

People matured early back then, handled task much greater, supported families in their teenage years, became a "man" at 16.

Yet time and again I see people lamenting how much of a shame it is that children are supposedly growing up quicker and quicker every year. Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe we've defined the length of childhood to be too long? Sure we aren't FULLY developed until later, but the government's age of adulthood is also years before a person has reached full development. It is clearly not based on body development. In fact, it looks more like some random age that the people in charge just decided was the best fit.

What is wrong with becoming a "man" or "woman" at 15 or 16?

Its not new, but its not healthy or good should be encouraged either, and the consequences are not good for the mother or the child for the reasons mentioned above.

I'm not trying to encourage it. Just trying to show that it has existed for a long time and people shouldn't pretend like it is some brand new epidemic that is sweeping the country and destroying the lives of teenage girls from sea to shining sea.

We are animals but we are much more developed. Animals(and some humans) Rape, kill and do other atrocities.

Animals do it because they do for procreation(except few) and dominance. Animals also know when the other is ready to mate and they do so with scent are pheromones... this way rape, incest and mating with animals that havn't "matured" can be prevented.

I fail to see how other animals carrying out rape or murder justifies humans' need to feel ashamed of their bodies and therefore cover up their "naughty" bits with pieces of cloth.