Source: Ukrainian authorities are ready to use army to subdue pro-Russian

reply to post by crazyewok


No.. You're not all that naive..and let me really clarify something on this too. Given how that sounds, it could be taken as insulting, when it's meant as nothing like that at all.

People are only as knowledgeable as their education ..and I don't mean some fancy college or advanced school. I just mean public school. The 20 somethings today have had most of their school years and reality defined by what came to be things like NCLB and the insanity that brought to a school system already in serious trouble for turning out literate and not just test capable people.

Today we have people that..honest to God, I watched this last year....openly and quickly accept Tasmania as South Korea and Australia as North Korea in 'on the street' interviews because the interviewer labeled it that way and asked their opinion of current events. That...is the level of intellect we have, by design and by our own doing. What can we expect but to have up as down and down as up? So many flat out got taught that way with no other perspective to think critically about, IMO.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by crazyewok

 

No.. You're not all that naive..and let me really clarify something on this too. Given how that sounds, it could be taken as insulting, when it's meant as nothing like that at all.

People are only as knowledgeable as their education ..and I don't mean some fancy college or advanced school. I just mean public school. The 20 somethings today have had most of their school years and reality defined by what came to be things like NCLB and the insanity that brought to a school system already in serious trouble for turning out literate and not just test capable people.

Today we have people that..honest to God, I watched this last year....openly and quickly accept Tasmania as South Korea and Australia as North Korea in 'on the street' interviews because the interviewer labeled it that way and asked their opinion of current events. That...is the level of intellect we have, by design and by our own doing. What can we expect but to have up as down and down as up? So many flat out got taught that way with no other perspective to think critically about, IMO.

edit on 26-2-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

That gave me a good laugh

I remember them doing the same thing in Britain a decade or so back where they labelled Jamaica as the UK

No I agree the average state school dropout probably won’t be that cued up on current events or even basic history.


I can see Crimea war 2.0 on the books though as im 1000% certain and bet you a case of British ales that Putin will not give up the crimea. Not unless the USA offers him Alaska! Hopefully its just a Ukraine verse Russia war.

mrsdudara

Wrabbit2000
However, the younger generations see Russians as our friends. They aren't. Not the Government of the Russian Federation anyway.

Why do you say that? Im in my mid 30's So I don't really include myself with the term "younger generation". The past few years, Putin has stood up for us citizens more than most of our own government has. I personally feel less threatened by the Russians than our own government. Our countries were allies once too.

I do share your hope that nothing comes of any of this. No I do not have memory of any of the great wars other than what my Grandpa's have told me. I do know enough however that the idea of my son joining the military next year scares the living daylights out of me.

I say what I do on this for years worth of reasons in little things here and there, atop the more obvious events in the news we watch happen and have been since Putin first came to power almost 14 years ago.

Things like the S.V.R. Defectors, up to and including the rank of Colonel and as recent as just this past decade for coming over to our side with what they had to share. It made things like the espionage ring broken up in New York not that long ago, nothing at all surprising.

The SVR, by defector and other reports, has been more active in North American operations than their predecessors were in the KGB. It's not surprising, since we're so open now...the days when a Russian had to physically walk a Canadian graveyard to find a name to build a fake ID around are long long past. Now they just stroll in as a tourist and overstay the VISA. Easy as pie...just not American Pie.

I take that view from things like Putin, for the past couple years in particular, (with his now Prime Minister helping while keeping the Presidential seat warm) pushing to build up his strategic nuclear and conventional forces so strongly and quickly, it's restoring Russia to it's previous World Power status. I don't think thats NECESSARILY a bad thing, either ...but it sure is when it comes at the direct expense of our side ..and with leadership seemingly HELPING to making it happen from within our own nation.

Putin has shown himself to be a good and wise leader....and I wont' take a thing from him on that. If I were Russian, I may very well like the man. Especially after the toilet that drunkard Yeltsin had left the Russian nation and people. They needed someone strong..and that's not a bad thing by itself.

It's a bad thing when we are turning wimpy and weak to leave a global power vacuum..which, almost without historic exception, leads to wars and BIG BIG wars as it's come to pass before. Whenever major world powers shift for power gaps which don't have obvious succession? People will likely die in very large numbers before those power questions get settled.

So it has been....so it's recorded to be..and so it shall come to pass, I have less and less doubt now as the days go on.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'm worried as well. I am seeing the past in the present. History repeating so to speak.

Russia is gearing up.
China is gearing up.
Iran is gearing up.
etc, etc...

All while the West (NATO) is gearing down. I think that I see storm clouds on the horizon.

The Ukraine breaking up is not a good thing. It won't be another Yugoslavia and I think that there are people who are actively encouraging this. They don't want to see a unified Ukraine. A unified Ukraine means that it is harder to divide the spoils/profits.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Excellent reply and I agree 100%

Russia has been working hard at a comeback. The only way to go to the next step in the chain of world power is war. The EU and US are not going to be knocked down a peg without a lot of blood shed. Through all this I keep thinking of Einstein who believed that if there was a WWIII, any war following would be fought with sticks and stones.

When they talk about dividing the Ukraine I remember the old story of two mothers wanting the same baby and the decision to cut it in half...

I want to believe that humanity has learned from its past and will rise above. That it will take an alternate route than the ugliness we saw in WWII.

mrsdudara
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Excellent reply and I agree 100%

Russia has been working hard at a comeback. The only way to go to the next step in the chain of world power is war. The EU and US are not going to be knocked down a peg without a lot of blood shed.

It's boiling down to finances again and strategic positions. I think Russia is taking a page out of the US playbook from the Cold War to a degree and are trying to position themselves as the good guys in the upcoming fight. Russia has the resources to fight a war, as does the Ukraine...but not as much as Russia.

If the Ukraine wants to be independent of Russia...they will have to ask the EU for help. Something Putin won't like at all.

This is going to get worse...not better. My prayers go out to the Ukrainian people. I hope to God I am wrong.

TDawgRex
I'm worried as well. I am seeing the past in the present. History repeating so to speak.

Russia is gearing up.
China is gearing up.
Iran is gearing up.
etc, etc...

All while the West (NATO) is gearing down. I think that I see storm clouds on the horizon.

The Ukraine breaking up is not a good thing. It won't be another Yugoslavia and I think that there are people who are actively encouraging this. They don't want to see a unified Ukraine. A unified Ukraine means that it is harder to divide the spoils/profits.

Interesting you should mention history repeating itself, because prior to both World wars (especially the 2nd), it was the West who had small Armies while the Axis had huge, well trained and equipped ones...

We still won though...

The British Empire prior to both wars only had a standing army a fraction larger than today's British Army. You can rest assured though, if the Winds of War blow, the UK and Commonwealth would mobilise as we have done so before, as will the US.

Something else to bear in mind is Russia has a tiny population compared to the EU and US, plus it is an ageing and unhealthy one. It would be an extraordinary feat for them to beat the combined forces of NATO in any non-nuclear war, simply on the numbers alone. Russia would be bonkers to risk an invasion of the Ukraine because the West would simply have no option but to reply. Georgia was a small country that could be allowed to let go, but the Ukraine is far to big and important to the EU to allow to be subjugated. If they did, any hope of the EU standing up to Russia in the future is down the drain and would only embolden the Russians to try other adventures.

stumason
The British Empire prior to both wars only had a standing army a fraction larger than today's British Army. You can rest assured though, if the Winds of War blow, the UK and Commonwealth would mobilise as we have done so before, as will the US.

Speak for ya self.

I aint mobiliseing for our wretched goverment and damed well wont for the EU and Ukraine. Ukraine can fend for itself and dammed if Il fight Russia. Freezing to death outside Moscow aint my style

Russia welcome to Ukraine. If you want to go over and contend it I wont stop you but im staying right here at home.

reply to post by crazyewok


You're probably too old any, ewok! I know I am, for the first few rounds anyway (I'm 31 - usually conscription age is 18-30).

Besides, I was speaking generally - the nation will mobilise, but there will always be those who don't want to fight, which is fine. However, I see nothing wrong with going to defend a country that is being invaded - the Russians that in are in the Ukraine are there because the Ukraine was subjugated by the USSR for 60-70 years and colonised by Russians and now, under the pretext of "protecting" those Russians, they want to carve the country up and take a slice.

FYI, this is exactly the excuse Hitler and the Germans used to take the Czechoslovakia lands prior to his ill-fated move to take Poland, to "protect" German speaking people's from "persecution".....

Where do you draw the line, ewok? If the Russians roll though Ukraine unmolested, they might look at Latvia, or Poland, or Romania, or all the other satellites they lost in 1991.

Before we start talking about Western intervention in this crisis, we need to get realistic.
If Russian troops arrive in the eastern Ukraine at the invitation of the "ex"-President, the western powers have neither the forces on the ground nor the rapidity of decision-making that would be necessary to forestall them.
Once they were there, the western powers would have neither the forces on the ground nor the political will and support in their own countries that would be necessary to drive them back.
Nor is the West going to start a nuclear war on this issue alone.
Putin knows all that, so he can afford to call the western bluff.
For people who know about the history of the 1930's- this is not the Munich crisis. It is only the Rhineland.

reply to post by stumason


26 and Prison to me seems a lot safer than war with Russia.

Id go to North Korea, Argentina or hell even China.

But Russia ? No chance. War with Russia normaly equals DEAD. Especialy when some idiot gets the bright idea of marching on Moscow

If they march across the Ukrainian border into Poland? I may think diffrently. But Ukraine? Russia can have it.

Unless the pays good Dunno what the going rate for a Junior Commissioned or warrent officer is but if they can awaken the merc in me I could be tempted haha

reply to post by crazyewok


The Russian winter was formidable, back in the 40's (cold weather warfare was in it's infancy) and the Napoleonic era (Cold weather warfare simply didn't exist).. In modern times, the cold would not pose as much of an issue - our troops have been training in the Arctic, Norway and elsewhere for decades and know full well how to (and are equipped for) fighting when it's a bit chilly.

Still, I see your point and I'm a big girl when it comes to the cold myself

stumason
reply to post by crazyewok

 

The Russian winter was formidable, back in the 40's (cold weather warfare was in it's infancy) and the Napoleonic era (Cold weather warfare simply didn't exist).. In modern times, the cold would not pose as much of an issue - our troops have been training in the Arctic, Norway and elsewhere for decades and know full well how to (and are equipped for) fighting when it's a bit chilly.

Still, I see your point and I'm a big girl when it comes to the cold myself

You know what?

I think id look for the Navy, nice warm submarine. Im sure id make a good midshipman

crazyewok
Unless the pays good

Dunno what the going rate for a Junior Commissioned or warrent officer is but if they can awaken the merc in me I could be tempted haha

Hehe, you'd probably be able to jump too (in a war scenario) a Corporal position owing to age and if you had relevant experience over the kids they'd call up on mass - so you'd be looking at around around £26k per annum, plus danger pay.

If not, then basic pay for a newly trained bullet-magnet is about £18k + danger pay when in theatre.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


At one of the places I worked, there was only one other person who was able to correctly answer which Korea is the "bad Korea." This one guy kept arguing with me, very passionately, trying to tell me that he had a cousin stationed in North Korea. He agreed to bet me money, which I foolishly asked him to do, but I told him I wouldn't take his money like that upon reconsideration.

I have more true stories like that one, but that one stuck out in my mind because of how strongly this guy was arguing his "position." He was my manager.

reply to post by crazyewok


Haha, good man - same here. I was set to join the Navy when I left school, but never did in the end despite being selected.

If you really want safety, join the RAF. Only the officers fight, they have it the right way around

DISRAELI
For people who know about the history of the 1930's- this is not the Munich crisis. It is only the Rhineland.

Not really - this is exactly like the Munich crisis - protecting your people in another country, whereas the Rhineland was merely moving troops into a part of their own country they were forbidden to before.

EDIT: The West cannot afford to let Russia roll the Ukraine, too much is at stake. If Russia is allowed to do this, they will be empowered to go further and press into the EU itself to restore the Soviet Empire.

stumason

If you really want safety, join the RAF. Only the officers fight, they have it the right way around

Yeah that’s the trouble I doubt id get offered anything lower than a Warrant officer. Plus I got a couple of flying lessons under my belt.

Why id pick navy. Warm billets, heavy armour round me and I’d probably enjoy it. In fact I looked into joining myself before I went down ill in my early 20's there’s a few jobs a Biologist can do.

Il be in a key job next year anyway as a teacher so they cant touch me anyway. Plus if I really wanted Id get my old job back in a certain pharma company, cant touch you there either

reply to post by stumason

The comparison was really about the readiness of other nations to react.
In the Rhineland crisis, there was no general agreement that something should be done about it; other nations were just not mentally geared up for considering hostilities with Germany. It was a very early stage in the development of the friction, as compared with Munich where war seemed a real possibility.
I think the chances that the West would react militarily to troop movements in the Ukraine are as low as they were in the Rhineland crisis.

(Also, given the Kiev used to be the capital of Russia, it is probably still difficult for Russians to think of the Ukraine as not part of their country. I don't believe the West has the political will to help oppose "reunion" except by shouting encouragement from the sidelines.)

In my few decades of watching world events and particularly since the Fall of the Wall? This represents the most unstable and truly dangerous time I've been alive to see. I hope we can laugh about this next month, talking about doomsayers and agreeing how nothing happened. Nothing would make me happier. Nothing on Earth.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I am sure Russia has war-gamed the scenario it is facing today in Ukraine. Learning from Vietnam and Afghanistan, it would be stupid for Russia to conduct all out attack on Ukraine. They would only send troop to east and other friendly regions once local disturbance is enough any quick take over is possible. Eastern region declares independence and invite Russia to provide stability. They can as per the local lawmakers throwing in a vote, just like votes were thrown in Kiev to oust Yanukovich.

The question is what will happen if Putin calls Obama and says "just 5 min. ago tanks and troops have already left bases and are heading towards East Ukraine to provide stability and avoid civil war type scenario. He further adds that any attempt by NATO to stop/hinder/block these troops will be responded with all out NUCLEAR attack on chosen NATO points around the globe. Kremlin cannot be more serious. PERIOD." Similar calls are made by senior Kremlin officials to other major NATO leaders simultaneously or rather the Defense minister calls the Chief of NATO in Brussels to have the message passed along the alliance capitals.

Question remains on what will Obama-Congress-NATO do to that warning of the global nuclear disaster. By constantly expanding eastwards, NATO has broken many promises made to Gorby before German re-unification in 1989. Now Russia's "near abroad" is penetrated. Although Baltic states were also near abroad but they do not hold that strategic significance which make defense of Russia totally paper thin. Stratfor has dozens on articles on how serious effects inclusion of Ukraine will have on Russia's security. Inclusion of Ukraine into EU is a very near step to inclusion into NATO. Russia does not like such possibility at all.

Hence conclusion is breaking up of Ukraine into two parts would be a better scenario. Russia will not feel insecure, real elements in Ukraine wanting westward push will get their wishes and all -NATO and Russia and world would know that eastward expansion of alliance is a futile and potentially destructive exercise. So better to focus resources and efforts to other major problems in own countries rather than risking a global artic winter for next 10,000 years.