A definitive end to alien/ufo conspiracy theories is near...here's why.

Background

To begin, I have been a member of this site for 9 years and have followed it for at least 11. I remember endlessly downloading videos and documents with p2p programs such as morpheus, limewire, and kazaa in the early 2000's, trying to expose myself to as much information on this subject as possible. While most were obvious fakes, others were debunked as out of context or explainable phenomena. Here are two I remember being quite popular in the early days.




However, despite years of keeping an open mind to whatever claims or evidence people put forward concerning UFO/alien conspiracies, nothing ever pushed my opinions from possible to probable. I'm 25 now, and after taking science and engineering in university, combined with hobbies in astronomy and computer science, my knowledge of reality and the universe is far greater than it was at the impressionable age of 14.

Main Argument

I believe, as the overwhelming majority of modern scientists agree, in the possibility of life beyond Earth, whether it exists as extremophilic bacteria, intelligent beings, or something completely outside of our current understanding of life.

Now take every conspiracy theory and "alternative" belief related to aliens and ufo's, and think about this for a moment. In modern times, for a conspiracy hiding the knowledge of aliens and ufo's to remain air tight:

1. There is a pervasive ethnocentrism in most alien and UFO conspiracy theories. In other words, the universe does not revolve around the United States. While it could be argued that an intelligent race of beings would choose to contact the most "developed" nation, this assumes our definition of "worthy" or "responsible" is universal.
   
2. Therefore it would require the cooperation and infrastructure of every space faring nation on the planet. This includes the European Union, China, Russia, America, Canada, India, and countless other nations.
   
3. Astronauts would need to remain federally sponsored and sworn to secrecy.
   
4. All privately operated spacecraft and satellites would require federal monitoring and again, sworn secrecy.
   
5. The federal governments of all space faring countries would have to be immune from whistle blowers with hard evidence (not anecdotal evidence), espionage, and "cyber terrorism".
   

While this is obviously not a complete list, it is a few examples in which a cover up would be at risk.
Yet with just these few points, it is possible to justify the title of this thread.

Over the next few decades, private companies such as SpaceX and Orbital Technologies will become the primary gateways to low earth orbit and beyond. With space tourism, colonization, and resource extraction becoming a real possibility, millions of civilians will have access to space. When this milestone is reached, it will be impossible to hide the existence of any extra-terrestrial presence. Therefore, if the highly unlikely existence of a global alien cover up is true, they only have a few more years to enjoy it. I for one won't hold my breath.

Don't hold your breath, theorists will simply say they are in on it too.

IF....
You forgot the most important line:

IF THEY ARE THERE.

But i agree, it would be VERRY hard keeping
something like that a secret..

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


This argument will be rendered moot if millions of civilians have access to space. Any and all "theories" without hard evidence will not hold up in a few decades.

However, it is inevitable that new conspiracy theories will form. I'm guessing people will begin to claim we have interstellar capabilities, the government is holding back progress in space, etc etc.

Miccey
IF....
You forgot the most important line:

IF THEY ARE THERE.

But i agree, it would be VERRY hard keeping
something like that a secret..

I did say that I merely believe in the possibility of life beyond Earth. It's far more likely that it will be some microbes or basic life living in the oceans on Europa or Encleudeus.

You forgot to take account about the aliens didnt want to reveal themselves.
Even with private access to space, I believe such thing will still be covered/hidden, due to its huge impact to humans. The astronauts/cosmonaut/taikonauts knew but still keep it hidden, the understood, the impact is too huge.

For some, "I told you so, there, it crash landed in front of White House!", some others "Ok, I'm wrong, aliens exist!" but for most people, open jaw and blinking for a minute, their belief shattered, doubting the thousand years of human foundation and unable to handle the reality that we are not the best creation, let alone how to deal with intelligent nonhuman.

Would you like to see it happen ? That is the astronaut/cosmonaut/taikonaut burden they currently carry.

So are you saying it could not have been kept secret because more would have spoken up by now? I agree with that on a global level. While some have - not enough to really be convincing. I think cover ups have happened but they have been isolated incidents. The people involved in Roswell were quite convincing - as were witnesses such as Walton and the Hill's.

I'm not so sure they were cover ups in the traditional sense (knowing and hiding something intentionally). More like authorities on the matter not being able to explain it so wanting it to go away.

If we get access to space - this doesn't mean we will know anymore than we do now. Astronauts and pilots have seen weird stuff and openly report it - yet conspiracies remain. People don't believe it until they see it with their own eyes, and when they are told they don't deem this valid evidence (even with photos in some circumstances). Unless we are "all" flying around in space or have one land on top of us it is left for the conspiracy forums.

reply to post by enthuziazm


Let me understand the OP, you are 25 and have taken engineering and science in college.....so with that, you claim there are no UFOs. Gotcha, well, first a UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object, not an alien....Considering you are using logic, well, you have to use the acronyms definition.

Second, being much older than you and attaining my engineering degree from the very first engineering institution in the country....I would say that I'm more open to the possibility of extraterrestrial life now than when i was your age, almost two decades ago. The more I learn of the science, world, and universe, the more I find it an absolute impossibility that there isn't life other life out there.

Third, having maintained a top secret security clearance at your age, it is quite easy to keep a secret with a group given the right hiring, logic, mission, cause, threats and pressures or just old fashioned drinking the coolaid. Don't be so quick to think a group of people can't keep a secret, could shock you with what my lowly butt knows and I was just an average army grunt. Funny thing, I question the official story more now because i saw what went on behind the scenes that wasn't being reported.....

25, you are so young you don't even know how young you are and how much life you have to live and experience. The moment you experience something that absolutely blows your mind and is explainable in your own head will change you to being a bit more open minded.

Peace and question

reply to post by enthuziazm


I would like to put a question to you, I personally am open to a number of potential explanations as to what UFO are and believe several to be true but HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ONE.

I was once walking home from work were I ran a small production line, about two thirds of the 6 mile walk home and between 2.30 am and 2.45 am I was walking through the west lancashire village of Westhead in lancashire England, Now in them day's we had sodium street light's which lit the road in a bright yellow light and created quite some light pollution, there was a gale force wind blowing a West by South Westerly wind and the dull yellow illuminated underbelly of the clouds was clearly visible moving with the wind, Something that felt like what you feel when someone is watching you and unexpectedly makes you turn to see them, made Me look up, directly where I looked and moving very fast against the wind, far faster than anything except the odd jet fighter I had seen and with no noise over the gale flew over the village in the direction of the Pilkington Laboratory's which are nearby, It was circular and uniluminated but reflected the street light's like it was metallic and domed underneath, it was just under the clound and dissapeared into it as it moved, Difficult to estimate but I would guess at about 400 to 1000 feet so even at the lower altitude it was pretty large and much bigger than a prop plane such as a piper or cesna, of course if My guess at altitude is wrong then it may have been at 250 feet and about two times the size of a typical cesna.

An australian aquantance whom now lived in England once told me he had seen a tube shaped UFO in the outback which made right angle manouvres and was faster than any jet he had ever seen but this is a second had relaying and mine is first hand.

Astronauts would need to remain federally sponsored and sworn to secrecy

Many astronauts were/are still at one time USAF. There have been USAF personal who have come forward with "UFO" witness testimony.

There is a pervasive ethnocentrism in most alien and UFO conspiracy theories. In other words, the universe does not revolve around the United States. While it could be argued that an intelligent race of beings would choose to contact the most "developed" nation, this assumes our definition of "worthy" or "responsible" is universal.

"UFOs" have been witnessed "globally" for centuries.

Keep in mind the "UFO" phenomenon, so to speak, has only been socially "OK" to speak about in a serious manner, publicly, for roughly the last couple to a few decades. We're missing many serious testimonies because of this. Even in today's day and age It is still not a fully non-taboo subject in respect to your social reputation/credibility.

The material possessions, social reputation and careers of individuals will almost always reign priority and of utmost importance at the end of the day.

None of what you say is "airtight."

reply to post by LABTECH767


Labtech, what year did you see that object?

When you said that something suddenly made you look up, that reminded me of my own sighting. I was walking home around 7:00pm, and for some reason, I just looked straight upwards, and saw a faint patch of light in the sky moving to the south, seemingly as fast as a high-flying jet plane, against the prevailing wind. Here's the report I filed at the time:
groups.google.com...

Interesting to note, this happened a month after the Phoenix Lights event, which I hadn't heard about till years later.

Best Regards.

I suggest reading up on Sleeper's/Lou Baldin's sites, for his posts.

www.ufolou.com...

And this,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This has been covered a few times. First of all, if they didn't want to be known or revealed to the masses, no matter how far we ventured into the solar system, we would not be in communication with them. Though they would be all around us. Think bowl with bacteria or insects/ants, or even mice, and if they are always aware of the scientists who might be studying them and guiding their evolution or advancement?

Now, is that the way it will remain always. Well, the gist of what Lou suggests is that as space cities and bases are created in our solar system, and this is apparently the next era towards the end of this century and onwards for several thousand year, of course beginning with some, there will be some contact that probably won't reach the masses and the religious masses here, apparently. But its being revealed long term in stages. Now, that is what I got out of reading his many posts, but not necessarily sure what might be said between the lines there.

With more discovered planets every week, and with the plethora of reports which are credible (ie...radar-visual-traces )
its just a matter of time before the ability to actually perceive the UFOs is spread throughout human beings.
UFOs are as much a state of mind I thinks....not that they are not real mind you....

reply to post by pointr97

Let me understand the OP, you are 25 and have taken engineering and science in college.....so with that, you claim there are no UFOs. Gotcha, well, first a UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object, not an alien....Considering you are using logic, well, you have to use the acronyms definition.

I'm not sure why you're so offended. I never claimed that my age or education provides me with proof "there are no UFO's". It just simply helped to reinforce my respect for the scientific method (helping me to reason and think rationally). Even in the social sciences when dealing with subjective qualitative research, social paradigms are used to guide the research. The results are testable, repeatable, and help to provide predictions.
Second, I tried to keep aliens and UFO's as a general term to cover conspiracy theories covering the more popular terms. I even mentioned how most videos are attributed to explainable phenomena or are flat out hoaxes. Just because someone sees something unexplainable in the sky does not automatically=aliens.

Second, being much older than you and attaining my engineering degree from the very first engineering institution in the country....I would say that I'm more open to the possibility of extraterrestrial life now than when i was your age, almost two decades ago. The more I learn of the science, world, and universe, the more I find it an absolute impossibility that there isn't life other life out there.

So you feel offended and want to turn this into a pissing contest? Your jimmy's are obviously rustled, so take a deep breath.

Third, having maintained a top secret security clearance at your age, it is quite easy to keep a secret with a group given the right hiring, logic, mission, cause, threats and pressures or just old fashioned drinking the coolaid. Don't be so quick to think a group of people can't keep a secret, could shock you with what my lowly butt knows and I was just an average army grunt. Funny thing, I question the official story more now because i saw what went on behind the scenes that wasn't being reported.....

Like I said in my post, in order for this to be a valid argument, you would need the cooperation of every space faring nation on earth. This means every person that collects the information, stores the information, manages the information, etc.. in every applicable country on the planet .

25, you are so young you don't even know how young you are and how much life you have to live and experience. The moment you experience something that absolutely blows your mind and is explainable in your own head will change you to being a bit more open minded.

If you are truly an engineer or a scientist, how can you support that reasoning? Science uncovers amazing and wonderful things every single day, however, they all fall within the laws of nature and reason. Shaky videos of dots in the sky and anecdotal stories will not cut it. Until something circumstantial comes along, it's pseudo-science.

"UFOs" have been witnessed "globally" for centuries.

The material possessions, social reputation and careers of individuals will almost always reign priority and of utmost importance at the end of the day.

Firstly, people used to think the sun was a god, the earth was flat, and the sun revolved around the earth.
Though it is interesting to speculate how people in the past interpreted the world around them, it is important to understand how these people lived and what they knew. It is literally impossible to view the world in the same way people did hundreds of years ago, or even 50 years ago. Therefore applying your knowledge to interpret something subjectively from their time and frame of reference is not reasonable.

And as far as reputation and material possessions as a basis for credibility...that is not epistemologically correct.
Plenty of well adjusted and successful people have claimed to be visited by god, had near death experiences, seen big foot, saw their dead wife float across the room...yet no one ever has hard evidence to support their claims.

reply to post by enthuziazm


Dear enthuziazm

You have already had disclosure from people who have seen these craft.

People who are qualified to know.

Thousands of them.

No government is going to tell you this stuff. They would last about a further ten minutes.

The problem is people do not realize what disclosure would mean. Try a minimum of the world as we know, would dissolve before our eyes.

So far the main arguments about Ufo's if they are military or what not.

Not only that, I find it odd, as to how frustrating how there are no "Known" Ufo's in the genre. Although I'm likely I do in a ufo that in black clad metal armor, compared to the Tr- whatever it was called, top secret craft, as to where billions and billions of tax dollars are supposedly going to. Although, I'm no less guilty, hell, I'm into orange sky flying fire flies, as well as a pale horse. However, I learned videos are just not where it at.

Even if we do go up to space, and colonize, I'm pretty sure they would still hide, unless they really wanna to make themselves known, or we somehow get that close to them, or their planet. Sometimes, it just seems like a cruel practical joke.

Not only that, science has become much more...definitive, like the original star trek, in comparison to next gen.

Problem is, the genre wants to sell, especially with it seemingly increased popularity. I doubt the genre will die, just will more or less be slow. Im sure they will come up with an other doomsday day some day.

I mean, the most recent thing was the Snowden Ufo releasing of document scenario, and that didn't help much, other then just saying.

"There Be Ufos".

reply to post by enthuziazm

Firstly, people used to think the sun was a god, the earth was flat, and the sun revolved around the earth.

Granted

And as far as reputation and material possessions as a basis for credibility...that is not epistemologically correct.

Not what I said.

I did not even remotely state that these factors were a "basis for credibility."

What I DID say, however (summing it up for you since you don't get it) is that some people have a lot to lose and won't take the chance to claim they seen anything "out of the ordinary." And that although society has come a long way in not demonizing these subjects we still haven't come far enough to fully allow for them in every sociological spectrum. What may be OK to talk about in one social group can mean the difference between your high-paying career and being "that guy" in another.

Plenty of well adjusted and successful people have claimed to be visited by god, had near death experiences, seen big foot, saw their dead wife float across the room...yet no one ever has hard evidence to support their claims.

Yeah, maybe "some". I would not go as far as to saying plenty.

Oh yeah, and who cares about NDE's or bigfoot or seeing dead relatives.

We are talking about "UFOs"

What I'm about to say is going to more than likely going to get tons of backlash and evil glares
But, do you see any high-status figures ever coming forward reporting "UFOs?" I mean... "people that are still 'actively' important, so to speak"
As in ... "NOT washed-out pseudo-high-status members of society?"

OK, that's kind of mean and Harsh, I know. But an observation nonetheless. Do you see Obama saying he saw a UFO? You see Dick Cheny saying he saw a UFO? (if he did he'd shoot it down at least) Do you see Martha Stewart... or Bill Gates... or... I don't know, Oprah, or I don't know...Say Anyone Who actively makes a ton of money that is in current "active and of good status" say they saw any "UFOs" lately?

No. Pretty sure you do not.


You know what though? What's the point?

You can bring up text book points all you want, like the history behind how ancient man perceived and explained what they saw in the sky compared to how modern man does so. Already been thoroughly versed countless of times.

There Isn't always evidence to be had. Just because there's no "evidence" doesn't mean sightings don't happen.
"UFO Evidence" is argued time and time again, and their existence will ALWAYS be challenged by non-witnesses doubting their existence. The arguing is redundant and futile. Challenge is encouraged and great for skeptics to debate in a friendly, buddy manner, but once you're an actual witness, that kind of back and forth kind of goes out the window

I'm a full-on fence-sitting skeptic when it comes to discussing just about every subject
Except "UFOS"
There comes a time where you have to take a side because you just know that something is real and whatever you do to try and hear people out and take in theories with an open-mind, you continuously come out empty-handed.

The arguing is redundant and futile because you cannot make anyone believe something they haven't seen for themselves. All you can do is tell them It's real, and try to explain the best you can why. But at the end of the day that will not be enough to win the argument in your favor.

You have not seen it for yourself, thus making the argument and counter-argument redundant and futile.

If you want to argue with others about proof, I highly suggest you find some of your own first.


For what It's worth. We can agree on one thing for certain. That is the title of your thread.

reply to post by unb3k44n7

What I'm about to say is going to more than likely going to get tons of backlash and evil glares
But, do you see any high-status figures ever coming forward reporting "UFOs?" I mean... "people that are still 'actively' important, so to speak"
As in ... "NOT washed-out pseudo-high-status members of society?"

OK, that's kind of mean and Harsh, I know. But an observation nonetheless. Do you see Obama saying he saw a UFO? You see Dick Cheny saying he saw a UFO? (if he did he'd shoot it down at least) Do you see Martha Stewart... or Bill Gates... or... I don't know, Oprah, or I don't know...Say Anyone Who actively makes a ton of money say they saw any "UFOs" lately?

How about:

RONALD REAGAN

Ronald Reagan

Carter's 1980 opponent observed a UFO while he was Governor of California. Traveling aboard his personal plane in the summer of 1974, Reagan saw a strange object flying outside his window. At Reagan's suggestion, the pilot followed the UFO for a few minutes before it suddenly shot straight up and disappeared in a flash.

Or how about 15 more such as:

15 CELEBRITIES WHO SAW UFOS

www.trutv.com...

reply to post by AlienView


a) Yes, the Regan thing is one of the few exceptions and an actively interesting subject.

b) No, Tru TV network celebrity television episodes don't count as legit testimony. They're bought and paid for. It would be like using "beforeitsnews.com" as a source.

ETA
But if you'd care to indulge in these celebrity accounts listed on the truTV website I'll be more than happy to go through them with you

1) Billy Ray Cyrus; Semi-washed-out Rockstar and falls into the category of "that guy"

2) Mick Jagger: Same as Billy Ray

3) Jackie Gleason: His Testimony may be true. Somewhat "that guy" and although not washed-out, is not an active icon

4) Victoria Beckham: Doesn't sit right with me. Likely non-legitimate sighting.

5) Bill Shatner: Do we really even want to go there? It's BIll Shatner...

6) Sammy Hagar: Washed-out, conveniently another Rockstar, drug user, and also "that guy"

7) John Lennon: I don't know. His testimony may be true But again, conveniently another Rockstar who isn't an active icon.


8) Carter: I don't know, possibly legitimate and interesting subject.
9) Regan: I don't know, possibly legitimate and interesting subject.

10) Muhammed Ali: IMO his Testimony might actually be legitimate

11) David Bowie: no comment...annddd another washed-out Rockstar to add to the list...

12) Will Smith: Debatable. But he can also appear biased due to the fact that he stars in several sci-fi films. Testimony possibly untrue but also possibly legitimate.

13) Alexander the Great: Backs up the fact that stated "UFOs" have been seen globally for centuries.

14) Dan Akroyd: "that guy" status. Dan Akroyd

15) Christopher Columbus: Same as Alexander the Great.