Men Who Vandalized Great Pyramid To Prove 'Theory' Face Charges

reply to post by Scott Creighton

Scott Creighton

I have to depart now from the discussion as I have some pressing deadlines to meet. But thanks again everyone for a very interesting, informative and lively discussion.

Hi Scott,

What a shame you're too busy to take part in this thread any more! I've really been enjoying it, and I'm sure a lot of other people have too.

Before you leave, though, could you tell us what you managed to find about Howard Vyse's travels in Egypt and Syria in 1842?

Thanks and regards,

Hooke

Hooke
reply to post by Scott Creighton

 

Scott Creighton

I have to depart now from the discussion as I have some pressing deadlines to meet. But thanks again everyone for a very interesting, informative and lively discussion.

Hi Scott,

What a shame you're too busy to take part in this thread any more! I've really been enjoying it, and I'm sure a lot of other people have too.

Before you leave, though, could you tell us what you managed to find about Howard Vyse's travels in Egypt and Syria in 1842?

Thanks and regards,

Hooke

Hi Hooke,

As I have said elsewhere in the thread, I shall come back to this in due course once I have completed my own research into this. To properly research this will probably take me around a month or so. I will make known the outcome of this research on my ATS Forum as soon as it is completed.

Regards,

SC

Grimpachi
Honestly I don't have any sympathy for those guys. The next time some legitimate archeologists want to examine the pyramids I imagine it will be that much more difficult to do so because of their actions.

Correct, they had a crackpot theory and took samples without permission to try and prove it. This is going to damage the ability of legitimate ones and could see any amateurs banned altogether. If only they'd stayed at home instead of being so selfish and short sighted.

Blackmarketeer
reply to post by mstower

 

Hi Martin this should be a working link for the above;

Unexplained Mysteries Link

ETA: that thread on UM seems to cover this topic in far greater detail...

Thanks. It seems that if I try to show the URL, the board software will try to parse it and get it wrong.

The thread on UM petered out. The truth is that the only thing keeping this going is someone who shall be nameless (Creighton) persisting in argumentative cheating. You’ll have seen already how nearly all of the points raised have been covered before.

M.

We may now forget our own small efforts to understand this topic. Atlantis Rising has spoken (on page 11).

I wonder if the Cayce crowd ever stop to consider the spiritual implications of intellectual dishonesty. They certainly lack the honesty to admit that their only interest in this topic is to rationalise Cayce’s childish story about “Ra-Ta” and “Isris”. Just like everyone else who’s given credence to this forgery muck, they have a dogma to defend.

A message especially for those who’ve bought the line that it’s “orthodoxy” does things like this.

M.

reply to post by mstower


A typical article of that ilk, portrays the two Germans as simple "students", ignoring their involvement in a 2005 film making the same claims about the Great Pyramid, so it's not like they didn't have an agenda outside of a simple science experiment. But then this:

"Howard-Vyse was seen entering the pyramid with brush and paint pot in hand and was heard to state that he intended to reinforce some of the marks he had found, ostensibly to render them more legible. Upon failing to dissuade the colonel from his plan, the mason quit. The story, however, was kept alive and handed down through the family till it eventually came to Sitchin."

So now he was heard to say what his evil plans were? Didn't see that written into Allen's alleged logbook. Why not add Vyse was seen laughing maniacally while twisting his mustache?

Whatever it takes to keep the Ancient Aliens cottage-industry afloat.

Blackmarketeer
reply to post by mstower

 

A typical article of that ilk, portrays the two Germans as simple "students", ignoring their involvement in a 2005 film making the same claims about the Great Pyramid, so it's not like they didn't have an agenda outside of a simple science experiment. But then this:

"Howard-Vyse was seen entering the pyramid with brush and paint pot in hand and was heard to state that he intended to reinforce some of the marks he had found, ostensibly to render them more legible. Upon failing to dissuade the colonel from his plan, the mason quit. The story, however, was kept alive and handed down through the family till it eventually came to Sitchin."

So now he was heard to say what his evil plans were? Didn't see that written into Allen's alleged logbook. Why not add Vyse was seen laughing maniacally while twisting his mustache?

Whatever it takes to keep the Ancient Aliens cottage-industry afloat.

Well its hard to sell a book that says Khufu built the pyramids easy to sell one claiming aliens built it. Because then it adds intrigue to a rather dull tale of an Egyptians search for immortality. Ancient aliens is an easy sell look cast doubt on the facts then of course make the claim aliens did it.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

Why not indeed? The people who come out with these things are clearly quite incapable of telling the story as is, without elaboration and confabulation.

Does anyone ever stop to think what this would look like? The Great Pyramid is quite big. From a distance where one can see it whole, people near it or on it are specks. Add to this the usual claim that all of this happened at night. How close is our unnamed witness supposed to have been?

So, here we have Vyse, with his paint, and his brush, and his evil leer, clambering up some of the larger blocks near the base to reach the entrance to the pyramid. Here he is passing through the rough-cut passage known as “Mamun’s Hole”, creeping bent double up the Ascending Passage, then standing up and walking up the Grand Gallery—all without the rails and steps which make the ascent relatively safe for the modern tourist.

Here he is, still clutching his pot of paint and brush, climbing up the ricketty ladder to the top of the Grand Gallery. (How many arms does he have? Spider-Vyse, Spider-Vyse, the man’s A Fraud and he tells you lies!) Here he is struggling through the crawlway to Davison’s Chamber—and not a drop spilt! Here he is climbing up chimney-style to the topmost chamber.

And this ludicrous scenario, which fails the most basic tests of plausibility, is presented to the reader as a verified truth.

M.

reply to post by mstower


Hello mstower,

And this ludicrous scenario, which fails the most basic tests of plausibility, is presented to the reader as a verified truth.

SC: Not entirely sure what is a "verified truth" here or who verified it. What can be stated with certainty, however, is that Col. Howard-vyse and his team managed to do this (image below) with black paint (and apparently without spilling a drop):



I don't see why using red ochre would have posed them any more difficulty.

Regards,

SC

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Mister Point just can’t stay away. Deadline or no deadline.

Yes, Creighton, “and his team”.

It’s not me who’s picturing Vyse acting alone, it’s those witty funsters at Atlantis Rising. (Try reading.)

Add to my outline above the absence of built-in lighting. Pot of paint in one hand, brush in the other, torch in yet another . . .

M.

I’ve just noticed something odd. Atlantis Rising #104 (page 11) tells us this: “In a 1994 interview with Atlantis Rising, Sitchin added to his case.”

Atlantis Rising was founded in 1994. This interview would have to have been in the very first issue. Can you see any sign of it?

https: //web.archive.org/web/20020817054411/http: //www.atlantisrising.com/issue1/ar1contents.html

(Again it mangles the URLs.)

The nearest thing I can find is Sitchin’s letter of complaint (in AR #10) about an article by Joseph Jochmanns (in AR #8).

https: //web.archive.org/web/20020817055006/http: //www.atlantisrising.com/issue10/ar10eters.html

https: //web.archive.org/web/20020812172348/http: //www.atlantisrising.com/issue8/ar8pyramids.html

They’re not even honest in their citations.

M.

mstower
I’ve just noticed something odd. Atlantis Rising #104 (page 11) tells us this: “In a 1994 interview with Atlantis Rising, Sitchin added to his case.”

Atlantis Rising was founded in 1994. This interview would have to have been in the very first issue. Can you see any sign of it?

https: //web.archive.org/web/20020817054411/http: //www.atlantisrising.com/issue1/ar1contents.html

(Again it mangles the URLs.)

The nearest thing I can find is Sitchin’s letter of complaint (in AR #10) about an article by Joseph Jochmanns (in AR #8).

https: //web.archive.org/web/20020817055006/http: //www.atlantisrising.com/issue10/ar10eters.html

https: //web.archive.org/web/20020812172348/http: //www.atlantisrising.com/issue8/ar8pyramids.html

They’re not even honest in their citations.

M.

So where did this come from?

The likely source is another, earlier magazine of Caycean concerns, Venture Inward, in its Nov/Dec 1986 issue, pages 33–37. I quote the relevant section verbatim:

Two years after my book was published, I received a letter from Walter M. Allen, a retired civil engineer living in Pittsburgh. What you say in your book about the Vyse forgery has been know in my family for the past 150 years, he wrote.

I called him at once, seeking an explanation. How could his family have known all along what took me years of research?

It turned out that his great-grandfather, a civil engineer by name of Humphries Brewer, went to Egypt to help build an eye hospital for Howard Vyse’s workers. Vyse then hired him to supervise the use of gunpowder within the pyramid. Humphries recorded his Egyptian experiences in letters to his father, back in England. In one of them he reported that he had lost his job. He had seen, he wrote, two assistants of Col. Vyse, a Mr. Raven and a Mr. Hill, enter the pyramid with brushes and red paint purportedly to repaint faint marks, but actually to draw new ones.

The Brewer family then moved to America, bringing with it among the family heirlooms the letters Humphries had written to his father. Years later my correspondent began to assemble a family history, interviewing the surviving elders. Humphries Brewer’s experiences in Egypt, including the forgery tale, were recorded by Mr. Allen; and he sent me photocopies of his log book’s relevant entries from 30 years ago.

Although the original letters could not be traced for me, a comparison of dates, names and other data included in the records leaves no doubt that Humphries Brewer was indeed an eyewitness to the forgery within the Great Pyramid.

Things are a little different now. We’ve seen as much of the “logbook” copies as Sitchin deemed fit (in 2007) to show us. We can see (if we have eyes and an honest intelligence) how far Sitchin goes beyond what was written in it—and how the Atlantis Rising #104 version distorts the story yet further.

All of which is typical of the genre.

M.

reply to post by Scott Creighton


Hi Scott...

More Atlantis Rising . . .

AR #1, another (earlier) presentation:

http: //web.archive.org/web/19990204000354/http: //atlantisrising.com/ar1contents.html

Archive listing of early issues:

http: //web.archive.org/web/19990209055148/http: //atlantisrising.com/archive2.html

The earliest mention of Sitchin found so far, in another piece by (the late) Joseph Robert Jochmans, in AR #4:

http: //web.archive.org/web/19990427160525/http: //atlantisrising.com/issue4/ar4hallrec.html

Nothing here coming close to an interview with Sitchin.

M.

Scott Creighton
reply to post by mstower

 

Hello mstower,

And this ludicrous scenario, which fails the most basic tests of plausibility, is presented to the reader as a verified truth.

SC: Not entirely sure what is a "verified truth" here or who verified it. What can be stated with certainty, however, is that Col. Howard-vyse and his team managed to do this (image below) with black paint (and apparently without spilling a drop):



I don't see why using red ochre would have posed them any more difficulty.

Regards,

SC

edit on 20/3/2014 by Scott Creighton because: Fix typo.

And what would that be proof of? Other than you trying to insinuate something but apparently you never heard of stencils see how they drew the lines to keep them straight.But look closely the spacings off however stenciling was very common most rich people had them it was considered a sign of upper class.

reply to post by dragonridr


If anything, to achieve that level of exactness in a cramped and dark chamber would have required extensive lighting, tools, and hours of concentration, not to mention a helping hand or two. Sitchin portrays it as something Vyse snuck off into the pyramid under the cover of night to do.

This whole line of "Vyse is a forger" is moot, Vyse had no knowledge (nor anyone in 1837) of linear Hieroglyphs as found in the chambers or the Horus name of Khufu, both of which are in evidence in the inscriptions. It was later discoveries, post-Vyse, that confirmed that the inscriptions are authentic.

Even so, the inscriptions are not the most powerful piece of evidence the GP was built during the Old Kingdom. That would be the two radiocarbon dating studies done in 1985 and 1994. Funny, how easily THAT test gets dismissed by the Sitchin followers, yet they demand this radiocarbon text. Those chambers have been subjected to 2 centuries of surface contamination, not to mention the hydrocarbons unleashed by gun powder and dynamite residue used in opening them. Unlike the 1985-1994 study, which took numerous samples from deep within the mortar of the core stones to prevent contaminated samples from skewing results, which is why statistical sampling is required.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


While you are waiting for Creighton’s no doubt cogent and compelling response, you may like to while away the hours, and days, and weeks, with the following:

archive.org...

books.google.co.uk...

archive.org...

www.academicroom.com...

M.

mstower
reply to post by Blackmarketeer

 

While you are waiting for Creighton’s no doubt cogent and compelling response, you may like to while away the hours, and days, and weeks, with the following:

archive.org...

books.google.co.uk...

archive.org...

www.academicroom.com...

M.

edit on 23-3-2014 by mstower because: of the usual URL trouble.

edit on 23-3-2014 by mstower because: of the usual URL trouble.

edit on 23-3-2014 by mstower because: of an unaccountable typo.

While he’s at it, Creighton might tell us exactly where to find the blow-by-blow account of the Vyse-Lepsius “Rumble at the Pyramids” which is doubtless somewhere in the diary of Georg Erbkam and the papers and correspondence of Joseph Bonomi:

www.astene.org.uk...

de.wikipedia.org...

www.deutschestextarchiv.de...

en.wikipedia.org...

archiveshub.ac.uk...

M.

A further injection of reality may be had here:

books.google.co.uk...

books.google.co.uk...

How likely is it (do you think) that the story which Sitchin and Creighton would have us believe would not have been the unofficial talk of such a meeting and an absolute scandal?

M.

mstower
A further injection of reality may be had here:

books.google.co.uk...

books.google.co.uk...

How likely is it (do you think) that the story which Sitchin and Creighton would have us believe would not have been the unofficial talk of such a meeting and an absolute scandal?

M.

edit on 25-3-2014 by mstower because: of more URL trouble.

After they found the workers graves there is now no doubt who built the pyramids. I mean they found workman schedules and food allocations for the workers. They told us what there jobs were because they were proud to work on the pyramid in it they gained there own mortality so to speak. Then we found the actual quarries in limestone again that was carbon dated as well since some tools were found again in line with carbon dating of the pyramid. Then they even found what they did with the ramps it was dumped onto the quarries millions of tons of mud bricks.And lets not forget Khufus boat Pit covered with cap stones quaried from the same place as the pyramid.Again the ship was carbon dated and reassembled in fact it has its own museum. Any one that thinks aliens built the pyramid or they were built earlier by a missing civilization is silly. See if there was an earlier civilization we would have found evidence of an earlier civilization but theirs nothing. But people try to sell books and its easier to sell a book if you create a mystery than just tell the truth.