Troops left to fend for themselves after Army was warned of flaws in rifle

reply to post by TDawgRex


Just in case:

The 300 blackout seems promising for Carbine ranged rifles. NOT!

Same weapon platform with subpar bullet characteristics = crappy outcome.

Let us hope this newer hype never sees NATO BS.

reply to post by TDawgRex


these complaints have been around since the m16 arrived.My old boss was in vietnam,they called them poodle shooters! Another young guy I know was in desert storm,during basic he switched to the m60,as his m16 jammed too much on the range! That said,the reason behind the caliber choice is to save money...a smaller bullet,less powder,less shipping weight,so on.And the theory is that if you wound a guy,rather than a kill,it will take 2 guys to carry him out,2 guys to split up his gear,and a guy to treat him.You just took 6 guys out with a wounding shot,in theory.

reply to post by TDawgRex

Yep. Everyone can keep their AR/DI platform.

I will keep my M14 and the roller locks I build.

I am not a fan of the M4.

However, what is available to the civilian market greatly improves on the issues faced by their military market counterparts. My AR is an extremely reliable beast of a 5.56mm weapon. It's internal design features are far better than what I have used in the army so far.

You also have to keep in mind that many of the magazines and rifles are cycled through so many people. They hardly ever see the care they truly need, and when you send them off to a BSB for reset all they come back with is a fault list and unit level armorers have to do the repairs, what they can anyway.

Here in Afghanistan we used civilian contractors for pre-reset, resets for all of our weapons inventory before sending them off to our BSB for "reset". They came back looking like brand new weapons from the civ guys. It's not that the BSB personnel can't do the job, it's that their hands are tied and we are forced to use civs for any actual maintenance beyond replacing organizational level parts.

The M4 would be a great weapon if we were allowed to use something better than CLP to clean and lubricate them. CLP is garbage sludge build up waiting to happen. The market has long since outpace the military in this respect.

The M16-M4 series battle rifle would be great if they changed two things 1) Switch the bore to 7.62. 2) Get rid of the gas impingement. I know that no longer is the same rifle but its needed. why won't they switch to 7.62 for conventionals? cost. 5.56 is the cheapest round to produce, so i foresee it always being around but the gas impingement is a joke. It just fouls up your weapon unnecessarily

I recently read that the Marines are testing a redesigned WW1 Browning Automatic Rifle chambered in 30.06 to replace the SAW. It's called the HCAR.

soldiersystems.net...

reply to post by SubTruth


The story was told to me by the actual shooter and it was around 300yrds. If a 4 tour vet won't use one why would I want to. Also he isn't the only vet I've talked to that detailed finding bodies sometimes blocks away tucked away up in a house or whatever hiding place...sometimes the enemy HQ. This makes retrieval very dangerous because who knows what kind of place they crawled to and many soldiers have been ambushed due to this. As I said before...I eagerly await the military embracing the 6.8 spc ii. Also dropping that DI system would be a pretty smart move as well.

reply to post by projectvxn


That's the point of this thread. The M4 series has had well known problems pretty much ever since it's introduction. But the DoD always thought of the replacements as too expensive. I would venture to say that the DoD has spent more in repairs over the years than they would have if they had just listened to the troops.

Almost like the ACU issue. I know of no one who liked that uniform. But the @$$hats in the Army bought off on it anyways. I will go even as far as to think that if a serious financial audit were done on those in the Procurement dept. would would find all sorts of irrgularities. But that is a whole 'nuther thread.

Here is another Washington Times article on the M4 with some pretty serious accusations being thrown around.

www.washingtontimes.com...

reply to post by METACOMET


The guys on the ground have known the following for years and have complained about it. And they have always been ignored.

“Because they were so close to the enemy, some were just sticking their weapons above the sandbags and spraying and praying. Putting the weapons on automatic and letting it go.
“A little bit of dirt in that thing, it won’t sustain that high rate of fire at all. The barrel gets hot and everything melts in the dang thing. They were firing their weapons trying to save their lives and just about everything jammed.”

Even after three mags on sustained fire the weapon gets excessively hot. And that is on the three round burst setting. I think that personal weapons should be semi-auto only. Spray and pray rarely works, uses up precious ammo and trashes the weapon after a short period. The M240/M60 & M249 roles are made for that role. (I can't say that I'm a fan of the SAW either as it too has a tendency to get fouled up pretty quickly)

Yeah, I'm going to disagree. I have several 5.56 DGI rigs and I am thrilled with them. It can hit 500 yds off the bag if you're a skilled shooter. Chambers heavy enough 70+ Gr. .223 rounds for incredible destructive penetration. Is lightweight and easy to maintain. I can carry far more ammo for the weight vs other calibers. The secret to avoiding a jam is to keep it wet! I've pushed over 1,000 rounds in a single day on training courses and never jammed on a load and stove-piped only 1 on eject on a bent casing.

Everyone has an opinion - which is fine. I'm interested in the 6.8 - only because I am a .40 S&W guy and that round was the combined outcome of the 9mm and the .45 to replace the old 10mm. The 6.8 reminds of that - hybridizing the 5.56 and the 7.62 and replacing the old 7mm.

We'll see. IMO, the best weapon platform is the one you're trained in using effectively and is comfortable to you.

Many years ago when I was sent to Iraq and the Philippines, they tried to issue me an older beat up M16A2 that was probably manufactured around the 1980's. The Navy didn't exactly provide much of a selection for us. Luckily, I was able to wheel and deal enough to get an older M14. It was heavier and the wooden stock had seen better days. But I still feel it was a better choice.

Compared to the days I had to pack the M60 around, the weight of the M14 was nothing.

The M14 was a bit rough on the shoulder and full auto fire was not very practical unless I could prop the barrel against something. Just firing small bursts, the amount of barrel climb was too much. So it pretty much stayed in semi most of the time.

But the effective range was fantastic. Those rare few times I was actually in a firefight, it definitely got the job done.

kozmo
I've pushed over 1,000 rounds in a single day on training courses and never jammed on a load and stove-piped only 1 on eject on a bent casing.

Training courses is the key word here. It's another story in combat when you don't have the time to keep it wet. Yes, there are plenty of M4 derivatives out there that are way better then the Colt product (And cost more as well). But that is what the Soldiers are carrying now. A inferior weapon.

You have to remember one of Murphy's Laws of Combat...

Everything you are issued has been made by the cheapest bidder.

TDawgRex

You have to remember one of Murphy's Laws of Combat...

Everything you are issued has been made by the cheapest bidder.

So damned true. As much as i hated the weapon i was issued I still use an AR at home. 1 because its the platform I was trained on so there's the comfort factor and familiarity of it and 2. Because I was trained so well, I do all my own work and built mine to my standards. If the armoror had allowed us to do the same I could've been happy with what I was issued. Ill take my semi auto AR over the A2 or M4 any day of the week. Even with my crappy eye sight I'm still good at 300 yards so it works well for my purposes plus the ability to switch out the upper and switch from 5.56 to 5.7x28 with no additional mods is always a treat. It's still not as good as my Sig 556 but it does the job.

a faulty rifle reminds me of an exploding cigar.

mornings should be tobacco and coffee.

Can I just put in a nod for what I qualled with- the slightly long in the tooth M-14? With some updates in frame and stock to solve the admitted weight problem it would be difficult to find a better bang pole. And they already own the rights to it. With associated manufacturing equipment.

reply to post by ChuckNasty

Even bullet by bullet carrying capabilities for those two rounds is a big difference. To win in carbine ranges, you need more bullets on target than bigger bullets.

Part of the problem with the .223/5.56, with it's very light weight, is that it deflects easily. Which is what makes the .308 better, IMO. This was seen in graphic detail and written about quite a bit from the Vietnam war and using the M-16 as the primary rifle in jungle warfare. If the foliage didn't deflect the rounds, I suppose it did a fair job in reading reports. Thats when it didn't get deflected in all directions.

It's also very interesting to watch demonstrations with these different calibers firing a pattern of tracers in with the regular ammunition. What's fascinating is actually seeing where some of the rounds are going and the weird ways some bounce around vs. others that just drill holes and make a mess of targets.

There are several posts in this thread that are old myths passed around since the Vietnam War. Even more are posts from people who have never had to carry a rifle for any length of time with 60+ pounds of additional gear in a combat environment. Most also ignore the logistical support required for combat weapons. It's never as simple as handing out a new rifle.

Why does the special operations community still carry the M4 and MK12 if they have access to other weapon load-outs?

When the rounds are placed properly, the 5.56 is effective. The effectiveness of the M855A1 on non-armored personnel can be argued but it provides adequate tissue damage for an "all-purpose" combat projectile. The M16 platform functions properly when it is maintained properly and that is the reality for every modern combat firearm. The problem lies in inadequate training of troops. A non-vital hit with a 7.62, 6.8, etc. will be just as ineffective as a non-vital hit with a 5.56. Additionally, the shooter will have fewer shots with the larger calibers because of magazine capacity and weight restrictions. A loaded 20 round 7.62 magazine weighs 1.62#. A loaded 30 round M16 magazine weighs 1#.

Another problem is that the natural human reaction is to fire as many shots as possible in the direction of danger just to make the bad guy stop being bad so the scary part will stop. Most of the shots are not well-aimed and it's easier to blame the caliber for wounded bad guys than it is to criticize the shooter. Hunters tend to blame their rifle, caliber, or ammo when they wound and lose a game animal... rarely does anyone take credit for missing the vitals.

In summary, the rifle and caliber are just fine for the intended purpose. There is no magical unicorn combat rifle that is perfect for every situation, never malfunctions, is easy to carry, and will kill the bad guy no matter where he's hit.

Wrabbit2000
It's also very interesting to watch demonstrations with these different calibers firing a pattern of tracers in with the regular ammunition. What's fascinating is actually seeing where some of the rounds are going and the weird ways some bounce around vs. others that just drill holes and make a mess of targets.

edit on 25-2-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

What many people think of rounds concerning tracers are actually the Magnesium breaking off the round and going off into another direction while bullet continues in another.

reply to post by TDawgRex


True.. and we can get technical to the point of being silly..but you've done more than shoot the M-4/AR on a range for paper punching, right? Would you rate it reliable for firing through any level of vegetation? No shots ought to be taken that way...but some sure seem to make the trip better than others.