Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I'd like to know why the media decided to shape peoples perceptions regarding gay marriage. Did people first ask for their societies perceptions to be changed? No. So unelected powers have succesfully altered Americans perceptions of certain issues.

So is this same mysterious nefarious force working the media of Belgium as well? Same-sex marriage is lawful there. Were all the Belgians brainwashed?

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

I just wanted to say that your posts, throughout this whole thread, have been excellent.

Thanks friend Your posts are top notch!

ketsuko
reply to post by Wandering Scribe

 

I don't think they have the right to use the government to redefine the word and force everyone else to recognize the redefinition.

Because if what you contend is true ... that it's wrong to have the current definition of marriage as just 1 man/1woman because that is simply forcing our morality down other people's throats ... then the inverse is also true. It's wrong to redefine marriage as simply any two people because that is likewise forcing someone's morality down everyone else's throats.

If one is wrong, so is the other.

You realize that all words and their definitions are Defined by people and Re-defined by people all the time, right??? Nobody has ownership or intellectual property rights of language. No Religion can claim ownership over any word or definition or concept of a word any more than a farmer can possess the rights to the word/definition/concept of Cow, Corn, etc. To even argue such an idea is beyond foolish. We, as in humans, made up our language and the rules that are involved and at best simply agree to use them in the same way, most of the time, but not always.

On a side note, I've read many arguments about this topic but never have I read something so completely selfish and myopic as to actually try and use "the rights of language definition" as the reason to oppose equality between people. You are actually so bitter and judgemental toward your fellow man as to refuse them the possibility to live as an equal, because you want to protect a definition within language. Your compassion and grace toward your own species is quite impressive!! Since you love language and definitions so much you should look up "Humanity" since you seem to have lost yours.

Would it still be fair if we used "Marriage" for Same Sex Couples and used "Religious Unions" for Traditional Man and Woman Couples??? Also, give certain Legal Rights to those Same Sex Marriages but not to the Traditional ones???

@ Skadi_the_Evil_Elf..;;;
What happened? We became more moral. We ditched superstition. We actually began to embrace freedom over slavery. We got tired of hate and oppression, and woke up to the fact that religion as we knew it was immoral, hateful, and kept us in the dark ages. We stopped believing the majority had the right to oppress, abuse, and exploit the minority.

Nobody woke up and turned everything upside down. You were all deliberately manipulated into thinking you woke up, when in fact you are fast asleep inside the media matrix.

Now we are learning the virtues of kindness, compassion, charity, empathy, tolerance, and love. Virtues that are absent in the Christian religion as it was practiced in much of the U.S.

simply more of the flowery jargon typically used to argue on this issue.... As programmed by the media. Holds no objective meaning.

We decided that being a bunch of brainwashed clones blindly marching to the beat of some delusional preacher

but its fully ok to be brainwashed clones marching to the beat of the nice people on the TV screen? Thats what happened. Stupidity like ''Jersey shore'' are product of godless media, not of any religious institution.

Lucid Lunacy....So is this same mysterious nefarious force working the media of Belgium as well? Same-sex marriage is lawful there. Were all of them brainwashed as well?

I am not familiar with the situation in Beligium, but I suspect Beligians christian heritage was first trashed, and opened the door for gays to go out and demand their ''rights''. Which is what happened to the US as well.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

but I suspect Beligians christian heritage was first trashed, and opened the door for gays to go out and demand their ''rights''.

So in other words when you take religion out of the picture people start believing in equality. Thanks for noticing the issue is religious in nature. It's not a mysterious force controlling the media and brainwashing all us simpletons. The religious argument for discriminating against them is losing its footing. That's it.

**Edit: Gah. I posted over my previous post!

I said something to the effect of:

How can you say the Christian heritage is trashed when the majority of the Nation is Christian?

Interjecting Christian values in the manner you're suggesting is in opposition with the actual American values. As I mentioned before, one of them being separation of religion from State.

Lucid Lunacy....Again I don't see how you can say the Christian heritage was trashed in the US when the majority of the nation is still Christian.

Then it makes this all the more mysterious. How did the ''majoity'' become so toothless that they are unable to keep Christian prayer in schools? How is the atheist ''minority'' and everybody else mocking christians to their faces everywhere? How did the satanist minority muster the guts to demand a public statue of satan... in a christian majority country? Why haven't the Christian majorty not been able to ban same sex weddings in THEIR own country? It seems powers other than the christian majority are in control of the majority, which makes this all the more mysterious.

As for America trashing Christian values. I noticed you didn't comment on my point about separation of religion from State. Interjecting all these Christian values in the manner you're suggesting is in opposition to the actual American values.

in my OP I made it clear that christian values were in place without America being a theocracy. ''Seperation of religion from state'' means we keep religion out of politics.. it doesn't mean you throw the peoples tradional values out.

sk0rpi0n
Now we are learning the virtues of kindness, compassion, charity, empathy, tolerance, and love. Virtues that are absent in the Christian religion as it was practiced in much of the U.S.

simply more of the flowery jargon typically used to argue on this issue.... As programmed by the media. Holds no objective meaning.

You wanna know why all those wonderful traditional Christian Values and ideas are being dropped??? Because like you, those that speak so highly of them act against them in every possible way. Like your statement above where you attribute values of Compassion, empathy, tolerance, etc. to being nothing but "flowery jargon" that "holds no objective meaning". Like you, too many so called Christians in reality have no morals or values, although they may speak of them and claim ownership of them, they act in complete opposite of every single one of them. Opposite even though their own teachings which they allegedly claim to follow!!!

How is it that you don't see it??? I'm even using your own words now and you still seem blind to it??? It's not the Values that are being dropped, it's the Lame Ass Religious Hypocrisy that is being dropped.

@ Lucid Lunacy....So in other words when you take religion out of the picture people start believing in equality.

no. When you take religion out of the picture, something else takes its position over and sells strange ideas such as gay marraige candy coated with flowery jargon and civil rights flavored language like ''equality'' , ''progressiveness'' etc. It also influences people to view generations old religious traditions as ''bigoted''.

Well if you took the Vatican out of the picture, there might be less tolerance of child abusers.

mOjOm.... Like your statement above where you attribute values of Compassion, empathy, tolerance, etc. to being nothing but "flowery jargon" that "holds no objective meaning". Like you, too many so called Christians in reality have no morals or values, although they may speak of them and claim ownership of them, they act in complete opposite of every single one of them.

Religion teaches that without action and putting words to practice nothing works. So ''love, equality and compassion'' from a religious pov holds that one has to take care of the poor and the weak, stay loyal to ones spouse etc. In the non-religious, media program context, it is a matter of introducing new ideas and saying ''this is love, compassion, equality etc.''.... Not very dfferent from introducing a new brand of hair gel and saying ''using this makes you cool and attractive to women''. Its what advertisers call ''brand positioning'',

sk0rpi0n

Do you realize that it is primarily all those Christian's and their Values which want nothing more than to destroy You and every other Muslim on earth??? It's not the secular people in this world who are against the values of others when those values include equal treatment, respect, compassion and tolerance. Most secular and even moderate religious people understand these values all too well, although they aren't from a book. They learn them by experience. They also learn their true meaning which includes allowing others space and freedom to experience life lessons for themselves.

You seem to think that it's the minority of secular people destroying religious values, but it's not. Religion is self destructing from too many lies and not being true to it's own lessons. That is why christian's are becoming non-religious. Not because of secret gay agendas, but because people are tired of being lied and misguided by religion. The lessons that religious leaders may have been teaching long ago are being learned by people now all on their own without some authority explaining it to them. They aren't that hard to understand after all, except for maybe those unfortunate Religious folk who talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

TIt seems powers other than the christian majority are in control of the majority, which makes this all the more mysterious.

You keep arguing for Christian values and pretend they are synonymous with American values. Government is supposed to protect the minority from the majority.

Here is some American tradition for you:

“All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate which would be oppression.” -Thomas Jefferson.

“the great danger in republics is that the majority will not respect the rights of minority.” -James Madison

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" -United States Declaration of Independence

Christians are free to practice their religion in the States. Imposing it onto others through politics is when it becomes an issue.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

When you take religion out of the picture, something else takes its position

Secular humanism. It's a wonderful thing.

civil rights flavored language like ''equality''

Equality might not be important to you but it's supposed to be important to America.

It also influences people to view generations old religious traditions as ''bigoted''.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

@Lucid Lunacy.... Christians are free to practice their religion in the States. Imposing it onto others through politics is when it becomes an issue.

Christian values of marraige and family DID prevail even though America was never a theocracy. So its also an issue when non-religious powers enroach on traditional definitions of marraige and family... and give others the ''freedom of speech'' to mock christanity. Seperation of religion and state has to work both ways.

sk0rpi0n
Comments like these simply prove and reinforce my point that the masses can only parrot what they have been programmed to parrot...and accept as ''normal''.

What puzzles me beyond belief is that you seem to think (which I already, at least for my part, argued against) that "we are programmed" mainly by the media etc.

However, I am kind of baffled since it never eluded you that the biggest programming of them all happens within religions and belief systems...and ISLAM certainly is not an exception there...to say it mildly : )

So...you read your Quaran...and others read the Bible (or the Holy Book of whoever), go to church or get "taught" morale values in school or in church or your mosque...and you DO NOT see this as the prime example of social programming?? Seriously?

Not only are those religious beliefs the prime examples of social programming, worse, they are most of the time extremely subjective and have nothing to stand on to actually "justify" them. (For instance, the notion that homosexuals are "sinners" etc. which AS TO MY KNOWLEDGE is the same in Islam AND with more 'radical' Christians).

You form your beliefs (and then actually priorities in your life where you are "against" or "for") based on some words in the Bible/Quaran...while the *very real* impact on, say, whether a minority of people are in fact homosexuals has no relevance WHATSOEVER...on your life, my life and most people's life....EXCEPT the artificially "constructed" relevancy this is supposed to have because you might have read in the Bible/Quaran "it's a bad thing"...so you make it a life's task to root against homosexuals.....like it's an "issue" which, in-fact, never had been one to begin with.

I also have the impression you continue to argue and often use the words "subjective" and "objective" when it comes to morale and values...but fact is there IS no "objective" good and "correct" values and your Quaran/Bible values are no more "objective" than the purely personal opinion of whatever random person. You however MAKE it "objective" because you voluntarily subject yourself to dogmas where "rules" (by God) are claimed to exist...and where those rules "become objective and true" simply because of that, not because of *real* significance on your life.

And when people act and think and make things a priority which in fact don't even have a significance in their life, it's the definition of IRRATIONAL BEHAVIOR. And any irrational behaviour, in particular when it is based on religion or whatever subjective, personal belief has always been and is dangerous. Because it turns off actual thinking and makes people into mindless, violent hating etc. animals who cannot even "logically" justify their actions.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Christian values of marraige and family DID prevail

Does not did. Christians can still marry. Can still have heterosexual marriages. Those marriages can still take place in a Church or through religious ceremony. What you're suggesting is that it's a Christian value to impose their will onto the non-religious. Rather terrible value to me but whatever winds your moral compass.

So its also an issue when non-religious powers enroach on traditional definitions of marraige and family…

Too bad. So sad.

Marriage has been undergoing changes for a while now. Gay marriage is in no way the first. Here is a bit about marriage from Wiki:

"Historically, in most cultures, married women had very few rights of their own, being considered, along with the family's children, the property of the husband; as such, they could not own or inherit property, or represent themselves legally (see for example coverture). In Europe, the United States, and a few other places, from the late 19th century throughout the 21st century, marriage has undergone gradual legal changes, aimed at improving the rights of women. These changes included giving wives a legal identity of their own, abolishing the right of husbands to physically discipline their wives, giving wives property rights, liberalizing divorce laws, and requiring a wife's consent when sexual relations occur."

I'm not going to ask if you agree with those changes. Based on what you've posted so far I can infer your thoughts on gender equality. Society changes. Adapt.

and give others the ''freedom of speech'' to mock Christianity.

And now you're insinuating we shouldn't have freedom of speech. You have very little grasp of what American values traditionally looks like. I really don't think you're qualified to inform us of them.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Today people are terrified to criticise homosexuality. They defend it because it is not politically correct to do otherwise. But most of them do not realise what they are defending; sado-masochism is rife in the gay scene. They are into some real degenerate stuff...this will be defended with a vengeance because the media makes people act without thinking. The gay scene, behind closed doors, is not about holding hands and kissing, it is real degenerate stuff...

reply to post by EnPassant

The gay scene, behind closed doors, is not about holding hands and kissing, it is about real f**ked up stuff…

Are you claiming some supernatural power that allows you to see what happens behind closed doors of every gay person?

I'm sure there are plenty of sexual activities that heterosexuals enjoy that appalls you as well! This isn't really about homosexuality. It's about you wanting others to conform to your standards of how sex should be done. I think sex and intimacy is something each couple should define for themselves.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by EnPassant

 

The gay scene, behind closed doors, is not about holding hands and kissing, it is about real f**ked up stuff…

Are you claiming some supernatural power that allows you to see what happens behind closed doors of every gay person?

I'm sure there are plenty of sexual activities that heterosexuals enjoy that appalls you as well! This isn't really about homosexuality. It's about you wanting others to conform to your standards of how sex should be done. I think sex and intimacy is something each couple should define for themselves.

edit on 14-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

I am aware of the gay scene through friends. It is depraved. There is a difference between imposing one's values on others and speaking out against what is clearly depraved. We have entered a world where it is no longer politically correct to define values: almost everything goes. This is the road to chaos. Perversion is a perversion OF something, something good. You seem to be saying that there is no difference between good and a perversion of good. Is madness not a derangement of reason? www.traditioninaction.org...

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by EnPassant

 

The gay scene, behind closed doors, is not about holding hands and kissing, it is about real f**ked up stuff…

Are you claiming some supernatural power that allows you to see what happens behind closed doors of every gay person?

I'm sure there are plenty of sexual activities that heterosexuals enjoy that appalls you as well! This isn't really about homosexuality. It's about you wanting others to conform to your standards of how sex should be done. I think sex and intimacy is something each couple should define for themselves.

edit on 14-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

Everybody draws a line. Some would draw it at bestiality, some at child abuse. The line exists and the real question is where to draw it. You are saying that people who draw lines should not speak out. You think it is not acceptable for me to warn that gays may be doing harm to themselves? Moral values are no longer politically correct?