The Real Meaning Behind Jesus Sacrifice.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The prophetic book of Ezekiel says the animal sin sacrifices are prophesied to return!

At the end of Ezekiel, there is what looks like a description of a temple at Jerusalem.
All the details should be taken figuratively but there is a general idea of it that should be taken literally, which is that there would be the continuation of a worship of this particular god.
This was being said while it appeared as if that religion had been completely done away with.
Here is what I see as the fulfillment of that prophecy:

According to the Book of Ezra, construction of the Second Temple was authorized by Cyrus the Great and began in 538 BCE, after the fall of the Babylonian Empire the year before. It was completed 23 years later, on the third day of Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the Great (12 March 515 BCE), dedicated by the Jewish governor Zerubbabel.
en.wikipedia.org...

Jesus' ''death'' is often referred to as a ritualistic sin sacrifice, akin to the OT's animal sin sacrifices.

If anyone ever finds such a reference in the OT, please let me know because I would be really interested in seeing it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Jesus' ''death'' is often referred to as a ritualistic sin sacrifice, akin to the OT's animal sin sacrifices. And christians teaching sin-sacrifice theology reduce Jesus to a mere sacrifical animal.

However, Jesus did not stay ''dead'' and no kind of sacrifice comes back to life after being, well.... sacrificed. At no point during Jesus' arrest, trial, crucifixion, resurrection did Jesus ever say anything about how the whole thing was supposed to be one grand sin offering.
…
…

Exactly, well said.

There is a clear dichotomy going on, throughout the Old Testament, in regards to animal sacrifices.

Jesus never states anywhere, that He is, or is going to be, a sacrifice for all sins, in the entire New Testament. He’s even against sacrifices, and the only one place, where believers think he mentions it, has been completely miss-understood, because of it’s real metaphoric and symbolic meaning …

And believing in a sacrifice, also goes completely against Jesus teachings, about people having to repent for their sins.

The Quran has strong connections with Judaism, and strangely, it also has elements from the Christian Gnostics texts, within some of its chapters, which were rejected from the early church.

Quran 6:164
(Asad) Say: "Am I, then, to seek a sustainer other than God, when He is the Sustainer of all things?" And whatever [wrong] any human being commits rests upon himself alone; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden. [163] And, in time, unto your Sustainer you all must return: and then He will make you. [truly] understand all that on which you were wont to differ. [164]

Source

BTW – I’m not a Muslim, but this Quran verse above, actually followings Gods teachings, by promoting this idea, that a person has to repent, of their own sins, and not have the burden, be put onto someone else. Which I totally agree with.

- JC

@Joecroft... Sin sacrifice theology opens up another ''plot hole'' in the Bible narrative. Jesus said to refrain from sin, telling people to cut off the hand that sins etc. Jesus' sin sacrifice would simply invalidate all of that.... ''sinned with your hand? No problem, Jesus died for your sins!''.

sk0rpi0n
@Joecroft... Sin sacrifice theology opens up another ''plot hole'' in the Bible narrative. Jesus said to refrain from sin, telling people to cut off the hand that sins etc. Jesus' sin sacrifice would simply invalidate all of that.... ''sinned with your hand? No problem, Jesus died for your sins!''.

Yes, if Jesus was knowingly going to his death it would be a form of suicide, or at best had suicidal tendencies. Is it not a sin to knowingly allow oneself to die at the hands of others or (you knowingly orchestrated) the componants (romans/pharasee) involved? Also, if the intent was all along to be martred; is also subjective. Its a direct manipulation of future human perception (causal=a power play for effect). There is no innocent intent in this; its either designed perfectly to happen as planned and if so is suspect; to what purpose? "sinned using others hands", maybe thats the get out of jail free card; the other one, you can sin at will because Jesus already died for all them (you are off the hook).

chr0naut
reply to post by technomage1

 

Jesus did not remove sin.
He took upon himself the consequences of our sins.

I wouldnt want to be in his sandals right now, like Prometheus giving 'fire/knowledge' to the human; punishment? chained to a rock having his liver eaten at 4:00 PM GMT every single day (could be worse I suppose); taking on all sins of mankind and absorb them. Did it work; mankind continues to boomerang itself; and Jesus still laments (for eternity) "my wounds will be kept open by those that defame me". Prometheus the template for Jesus?

reply to post by VoiceInTheWilderness



But you haven’t answered my other questions. I will answer your questions below, this one last time, but if you don’t answer these questions below, then the discussion becomes one sided, and completely unfair, as well as drifting off topic.

Here they are again…

(1) If Jesus death is what excuses/saves people of all their sins, then why does Jesus say “I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance”…why the need to repent, if Jesus did it all on the cross…?

(2) Can anyone be saved without Jesus message…? (and for argument sake, well just go with the standard Christian definition, of what being “saved” means)

You must answer these questions first, before you respond to anything else I’ve written below…because they are what this thread topic is about…

Originally posted by Joecroft
You do realize that this is a question that’s been debated for centuries.

Originally posted by VoiceinTheWilderness
Yes and they settled it in 325 A.D (www.gotquestions.org...). Only those that are outside of the church are still trying to figure it out.

I have my own unique view on it, and I don’t accept the Trinitarian view….

Originally posted by VoiceinTheWilderness
"But even if I'm wrong about that..." Here's what can happen:

No, I believe Jesus is The Son of God…the only reason I wrote the above, was to put the emphasis onto his message. A message, that I believe was partly corrupted, by those in power. But I believe those who search for the truth will find it, and be able to discern the truth, from the lies.

Originally posted by VoiceinTheWilderness
If so, what do you mean that Jesus is the Son of God: 1) He is God's eternal Son or 2) He's the Son like the rest of us are or 3) He's the Son like how Angels and Adam are called sons of God?

Jesus is just like us, in many respects, and even states in the Gospels that we are all sons of God, and that we are the Light of the World, just like him.

Although I personally, believe that Jesus is The Son God, which IMO means, He was the first spiritual being, that God created, who was there in the beginning with God, which is why He came to testify to Gods truth.

But I believe men corrupted that truth, and changed parts of his message to fit OT theology, and that this corruption, can be detected, by those of a discerning mind and Spirit.

Also, both Trinitarians and non – Trinitarians, both receive the Holy Spirit, so I don’t believe God holds it against them, for getting that part wrong.

Originally posted by VoiceinTheWilderness
Also the GOSPEL message is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and the Gospel is about Christ: His death, burial and resurrection, according to the scriptures. Do you believe in this?

I think Jesus rose spiritually, which is the wording used in Paul’s other epistles. And I think the bodily resurrection stories, were slowly interwoven into the texts later on, to support a full body resurrection.

Just wanted to add this final part. This thread isn’t about me outlining, all my specific beliefs, and even if I did, it doesn’t detract from what I’m pointing out, in my OP.

Someone could equally believe in all of standard Christianity, and still accept (take on board) what I outlined in my OP.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Jesus never states anywhere, that He is, or is going to be, a sacrifice for all sins, in the entire New Testament.

But it does say that Jesus died for our sins.
The sentence by itself rendered in the English translation seems ambiguous but the preposition is hyper, which literally means "on top of".
The simpler interpretation is that Jesus died for the raising of our sins.
To add a bit of figurative understanding to it, Jesus died for the improvement of our sins.

He’s even against sacrifices, and the only one place, where believers think he mentions it, has been completely miss-understood, because of it’s real metaphoric and symbolic meaning …

And what "one place" would that be?
Jesus talks about sacrifice a lot.
For example, he says "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me."
He meant this as a reference to his being crucified.

A lot of things are a sacrifice, and giving up your life for the sake of others is a personal sacrifice.
God sacrificed His son to benefit this world.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Yes, if Jesus was knowingly going to his death it would be a form of suicide, or at best had suicidal tendencies.

Jesus knew that from before the beginning, where this was discussed in the heavenly council.
John 12:27
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.
(2011 NIV)

jmdewey60
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Yes, if Jesus was knowingly going to his death it would be a form of suicide, or at best had suicidal tendencies.

Jesus knew that from before the beginning, where this was discussed in the heavenly council.
John 12:27
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.
(2011 NIV)

You are not going to 'rope a dope' a Gnostic into reading John 12:27 and believing it as factual. "father save me from this hour as I am troubled". Too late for ANY discussion or backpeddling (oops) with his creator at this point (liver already speared; vinegar sustainance by sponge administered; and hanging on a wheel not a cross).

reply to post by Joecroft

I have my own unique view on it, and I don’t accept the Trinitarian view….

No, I believe Jesus is The Son of God…the only reason I wrote the above, was to put the emphasis onto his message. A message, that I believe was partly corrupted, by those in power. But I believe those who search for the truth will find it, and be able to discern the truth, from the lies.

Jesus is just like us, in many respects, and even states in the Gospels that we are all sons of God, and that we are the Light of the World, just like him.

Although I personally, believe that Jesus is The Son God, which IMO means, He was the first spiritual being, that God created, who was there in the beginning with God, which is why He came to testify to Gods truth.

But I believe men corrupted that truth, and changed parts of his message to fit OT theology, and that this corruption, can be detected, by those of a discerning mind and Spirit.

Also, both Trinitarians and non – Trinitarians, both receive the Holy Spirit, so I don’t believe God holds it against them, for getting that part wrong.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I asked to make sure so that I don't misrepresent your view later on. I have a thread that deals with this specific topic that I'll post later in its own thread. Peace.

reply to post by ctophil

Originally posted by ctophil
Job well done, Joecroft.

Thanks…

Originally posted by ctophil
It is true that Christ Jesus was just trying to teach the Israelites a true message of the Kingdom. Logically, if you went out and taught people the way Jesus did, most countries would throw you in jail for years.

Yes, finding the Kingdom within, is the true salvation…IMO And your right, Jesus was trying to show us how to get there. When one receives the Holy Spirit, they become aware that they are a spiritual being, who are a part of the living God. This is the real meaning behind the Good news; a spiritual Kingdom, that is all around us and within us.

The real truth, is that there is no separation from God, but God wants us to come to realize this, within our souls/spirits by connecting with him. Knowing you are a part of God and are a child of God, is what helps us to walk the path, and keep the commandments etc…

Those in power wanted keep the threat of Hell over others, so they subverted Jesus words, and even added to them IMO, and made them fit into a theology around Hell and sacrifice.

And if God is sending people to Hell or destruction, then of course you need a sacrifice to get out of it. But God isn’t like that at all. God desires mercy not sacrifice, and the knowledge of the Holy above ALL else. And I’m sure, your well aware of all this.

Originally posted by ctophil
In the U.S., you would most likely be "booed and hissed" and could be beaten up by those who don't see the big picture. Although like Master Jesus, you would also pick up a disciple here and there, but not many.

Because the Spiritual Path is a narrow road just like the top of a pyramid. How do I know this? Because I also teach what the Master did in our modern times in the streets and even outside the United States. I have been threatened by so many religious people, I have stopped counting years ago. I even lost my job/business before due to my teachings. But it is always about the love. You want people to know what you know....how this knowledge and wisdom can benefit every walk of life.

Most people don’t understand, because they’ve never given up anything themselves, to seek the real truths, all they have done is accept what other men have taught them to believe.

And there too busy weighing up whether someone believes in X, Y or Z, and worrying about whether there souls are safe, instead of just being out there! Doing it, and living it! and helping others, just like what you’ve done yourself…that’s where the real Church is at IMO…

In my book, you’re the real Celebrity/Hero, and deserve to be commended for the self sacrifices you have made. What you have done for others, God will return, 10 Fold back to you.

Originally posted by ctophil
So you see, Master Jesus was a great teacher and he still is. But that was all he was--a teacher. His blood can not save anybody.

I agree with your last statement, as you probably can gather from my Op lol…but you wrote in another post, on another thread, that Jesus still assists people today, by bringing them onto the Path, and into a relationship with God etc… Well, that’s one aspect that I definitely agree with, and the Bible confirms it too.

Peace be with you…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Although I personally, believe that Jesus is The Son God, which IMO means, He was the first spiritual being, that God created, who was there in the beginning with God, which is why He came to testify to Gods truth.

Do you think it's possible that once you realize you are a part of God that you also become One with the first spiritual being?

In my opinion God is Spirit, that Spirit is within all of us, and once we become One with God we also realize that we too are the first spiritual being.

I agree with you though, I just wanted to get your thoughts on that one thing.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Joecroft
Jesus never states anywhere, that He is, or is going to be, a sacrifice for all sins, in the entire New Testament.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
But it does say that Jesus died for our sins.
The sentence by itself rendered in the English translation seems ambiguous but the preposition is hyper, which literally means "on top of".

I’m talking about Jesus words, just those found in the 4 Gospels, the red letters, not Pauls Epistles etc…

Anyway, which verse were you thinking of…?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The simpler interpretation is that Jesus died for the raising of our sins.

To add a bit of figurative understanding to it, Jesus died for the improvement of our sins.

My personal view, is Jesus died to help us with our sins, through his message.

Originally posted by Joecroft
He’s even against sacrifices, and the only one place, where believers think he mentions it, has been completely miss-understood, because of it’s real metaphoric and symbolic meaning …

Originally posted by jmdewey60
And what "one place" would that be?
Jesus talks about sacrifice a lot.
For example, he says "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me."
He meant this as a reference to his being crucified.

That one place…would be, Matthew 26:27-29


As for John 12:32 and "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me."

I think Jesus meant that his death and spiritual resurrection, would draw people to himself, and his message. He’s certainly not saying, you will be saved by his death, that’s for sure.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
A lot of things are a sacrifice, and giving up your life for the sake of others is a personal sacrifice.

God sacrificed His son to benefit this world.

Yes, this is basically how I think, many of the verses can be viewed, instead of looking at them as a blood sacrifice. They could just as easily be viewed, in the way you’ve described above.

- JC

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Do you think it's possible that once you realize you are a part of God that you also become One with the first spiritual being?

In my opinion God is Spirit, that Spirit is within all of us, and once we become One with God we also realize that we too are the first spiritual being.

I agree with you though, I just wanted to get your thoughts on that one thing.

Sure; Well, this is quite tricky to explain. I agree God is spirit, and where all one with God. But I also believe each soul, is an individual entity, and that each soul entity, had a starting point, within infinity. So we come to realize, we came from the first spiritual being i.e. the Father, hence where all sons of the God.

I say Jesus is The son of God, because I believe He was the first created being from within infinity/Father. I believe God created us, as well, but we only differ in that we came further along the line. But we all share the same other things as Jesus i.e. where all the light, we are all spirit, were all one with God/Father etc…

Except IMO, being one with God, is knowing you’re connected to everything in substance, and not that you are everyone, but that you’re only a part of everyone, in material/substance terms, if that make sense. Hence a family i.e. sons of the Light.

I also think, (and this maybe tricky to rap your head around,) that Jesus, is the highest form, of His lower self. In, other words, He’s as close to being God, as He can be, without actually being the Father.

Of course, I’ve found theology, in the Gnostics texts, which show that Jesus is the word of God. I found it repeated so much, in the NT, and in the Gnostic texts that I didn’t want to discount it.

BTW - I’m not expecting people/you, to believe in this lol, because in a way, I think from Gods perspective, it’s almost secondary, to Jesus overall message.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

As for John 12:32 and "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me."

I think Jesus meant that his death and spiritual resurrection, would draw people to himself, and his message. He’s certainly not saying, you will be saved by his death, that’s for sure.

The next vers says,
He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
(2011 NIV)
or are you discounting that because 'Jesus didn't say it'?

jmdewey60....The next vers says,
He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.(2011 NIV)
or are you discounting that because 'Jesus didn't say it'?

Well, that statement is a commentary from the writer of ''John''. It wouldn't matter if one takes the ''if-its-in-the-Bible-its-true'' approach. For those who distinguish between Jesus' own words and that of those who wrote the gopels, Jesus never died in the truest sense of the word because Jesus himself said ''no man can take my life'' ...instead he laid his own life and took it back again. So nobody really ''killed'' or ''sacrificed'' him.

technomage1
here is my issue with his death...
If he (Jesus Christ) died for all us sinners why is there still sin in the world ?
i am pretty sure we can all agree the world has become worse since his death so what was the point ?

What you have to understand is that Jesus did not give his life to stop all sin from being committed, that would interfere with free will (without freewill we would be like robots).

In the old times, the times of the Old Testament, the way man atoned for his sins was much the same way as other ancient religions, by offering sacrifices. The sacrifice was the way that they repented and cleansed their spirit.

When Jesus came along, he gave himself as the ultimate sacrifice so that when man repented for his sins all he had to do to be forgiven was ask it of Jesus in his name, and also to forgive those who had sinned against him.. and he would be forgiven.

Believe it or not, as much as people like to speculate, it is all in the Bible.

God Bless you all!

EDIT: Also wanted to mention Jesus was well aware of his impending death and took many steps to ensure that it happened exactly as it had been prophesied.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

...instead he laid his own life and took it back again.

I think that was when he submitted to the plan to start with, to be born as a human on this planet.
That made him bound to die, one way or another but he wanted to make it count, by having his death demonstrate how the system of the world's government was morally bankrupt.

reply to post by emptyOmind

Believe it or not, as much as people like to speculate, it is all in the Bible.

How do you know that what you believe is not just buying into someone else's speculation?
I mean, what do you think the prophecies or whatever say exactly?

In the old times, the times of the Old Testament, the way man atoned for his sins was much the same way as other ancient religions, by offering sacrifices.

There is a description in the OT of a Day of Atonement, but we don't know for sure if such a thing ever really happened, where you couldn't actually reconstruct a Day of Atonement today if you wanted to, from what you could read in the Bible.

When Jesus came along, he gave himself as the ultimate sacrifice so that when man repented for his sins all he had to do to be forgiven was ask it of Jesus in his name,

The Book of Hebrews in the New Testament uses Jesus' death symbolically to inaugurate the new covenant which itself is a metaphorical device to show how important Jesus' life and death and resurrection were to the founding of the church.

Jesus had the power and authority to forgive sins before he died, as described in the gospels.
People are forgiven biblically when they repent of their sins, and either do not sin any more, or are of the mind to where that is their future path.
There is a God, and that god is not so weak as to not be able to empower people with His will, if they will accept it.

. . . and also to forgive those who had sinned against him.. and he would be forgiven.

OK, that's a new one to me.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Joecroft
As for John 12:32 and "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me."
I think Jesus meant that his death and spiritual resurrection, would draw people to himself, and his message. He’s certainly not saying, you will be saved by his death, that’s for sure.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The next vers says,
He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
(2011 NIV) or are you discounting that because 'Jesus didn't say it'?

No, not at all. But that line, is the authors commentary on what Jesus said. I just don’t think it automatically means “I am a blood sacrifice”…which is what most people are reading into it…

Jesus predicts many future events in the New Testament, and most of the time it’s try and show Gods power. For me, Jesus is prophesying his death, because He’s drawing attention to his eventual spiritual resurrection, which is all part and parcel, of Jesus overall message.


- JC