BIBLE CHALLENGE

Reply to abstract_alao
Matthew 13:57
Where is the problem here? These people have just rejected Jesus's teaching because of his humble origins not because any lack of truth in what he had to say. ("Isn't this the carpenter's son". ) Jesus is basically saying to them that they focused on his origins rather than on his message.

Mark 10:18
Reading the lines above. Jesus is rhetorically asking. "Do you know what you are implying? If no one but God is good and if you are saying that I am good, then you are saying that ....."

Matthew 7:21
Works (doing good deeds) and following the Law is not sufficient, Faith is required.

John 5:37
View this passage in the reading of the entire Chapter 5. Jesus has just healed a man on the Sabbath, certain Jews were attacking Him because He healed (worked) on the Sabbath. What Jesus is saying here is that they never really understood what God wants from people. (They know the letter of the Law, but did not understand its spirit).

John 6:38
37. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus lived a life of submission to the Father and of service to people as a example for us as to how we should live. See below:
Philippians 2
6. Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7. but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

John 7:16
16. Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.
17. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
18. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
Jesus is saying his words are completely trustworthy because they come from the Father.

John 8:28
John 13:16
John 14:28

All these passages deal with submission to the Father (which does not necessarily imply inferiority). A detailed discussion can be found at:
www.christian-thinktank.com...

Reply to maddas
On numbers in the Bible. Why couldn't Noah live 950 years? If God can create a universe, would it be difficult for Him to extend the life span of one man to 940 years? Here is the basic problem with the skeptic or naturalist, their contention is that miracles do not happen (or simply God does not exist). Therefore their claim is that the Red Sea could not have parted, or that Noah could have lived 950 years. (The longest life span was Methuselah at 969 years.) Of course they reject the notion that a man can live for so long. However there is reference in the Bible that God was acting to extend life spans:
Genesis 6:3
3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
It all boils down do you believe in God or not. If you believe in God then Methuselah living 969 years, the parting of the Red Sea, the raising of Lazarus are possibilities. If you do not believe in God, then these events are simply myths. It all boils down to belief.
For some details on Joshua's "Conquest":
www.christian-thinktank.com...

Interesting is the conquest of Israel under Joshua.
The generally accepted chronology of the events of the pentacteuch place the time of Abraham and the patriachs between 1900 and 1800 BC, the middle bronze age and between the 12 and 13 th Egyptian Dynasty. The Pharoah that Abarham and Sarah would most likely have met would have been Senwosret III.
during the 19 and 20th Dynastys. The time of Joseph could have occured at to time generally accepted; Firstly during the Hyksos Domination at the fall of the middle age cities, the 15-16 Dynasties between 1600-1500 BC. More accepted is that Joseph was sold to Akhenaten of the 18 Dynasty betwenn 1400-1300 BC during the late bronze age.
The time of Moses the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan is accepted to have occured during the reign of Ramesses II at c.1300 to 1200 BC, leaving to conquest of Canaan at c.1200 BC. The dawn of the Iron age did not occur until the comming if the Philistines which was after 1200 BC.

The problem here is that the archelogical evidence and the bible do not agree.

Jericho: (Joshua 6:1-24) Major, strongly fortified city captured and burn by Joshua.

Evidence: Neither wall nor evidence of significant settlement in the late bronze age.

Ai: (Joshua 8:19-28) Major, strongly fortified city captured, burnt and made permanent ruin.

Evidence: No evidence of fortification or occupation in the late bronze age.

Bethel: (Judges 1:22-26) Captured by the tribe of Joseph; inhabitants slaughtered.

Evidence: Here there is 'tremendous conflagration' at late bronze age level. So a possible agreement.

Hazor: (Joshua 11:10-12) A royal city captured and burnt by Joshua, but subsequently reoccupied by the enemy.

Evidence: A late bronze age destruction level found, but no evidence of subsquent reoccupation.

Debir: (Joshua 10:39, Judges 1:11) A royal city captured and the inhabitants slaughtered.

Evidence: A late bronze age destruction level identified.

Lachish: (Joshua 10:31-32) Captured and the inhabitants slaughtered.

Evidence: Destruction accompanied by great conflagration dateable to reign of Ramesses II. Faintly agreeable.

Hebron: (Joshua 10:36-37) An Anakim city captured and its inhabitants slaughtered.

Evidence: No evidence of late bronze age occupation.

Hormah (Judges 1:17, Numbers 14:21) A Canaanite city (Zephath) captured and renamed by the tribe of Judah.

Evidence: No Evidence of existence in late bronze age.

Dan: (Judges 18:27) Formerly known as Laish, captured and burnt by Danite tribe, inhabitants killed , then town rebuilt for Danite occupation.

Evidence: Evidence of slight cultural change in late bronze age, but no fire.

Gibeon: (Joshua 9:10) Population enslaved, but city apparently preserved.

Evidence: No evidence of significant occupation in late bronze age.

Arad: (Numbers 21:2-3) Arad's king defeated in battle shortly before main Israelite invasion.

Evidence: No evidence of existence in late bronze age.

It is easy to see by this that according to this date the biblical accounts and the archaeological evidence do not come close to being agreeable. So what could be wrong? These date's where worked from taking the most recent event and working backwards through the history of the bible, relying on the given periods, ages and time ruled by different kings. For the bible to be right there should be complete agreement with archaeology.

For the accounts of the conquest of Canaan to corellate with the biblical one the date of this occupation has to be pushed back in to to c.1400BC. But this creates more problems placing the events of the new and divided Kingdoms out of sinc with history.
Applying the date of 1400BC to the conquest of Canaan places the biblical accounts and the archaeological evidence in agreement. However still the account of Ai still remains elusive since at this eariler date there is still no evidence of occupation.
Thus making Senwosret III the most likely Pharaoh that Joseph was sold to. The time of Moses, Exodus, the wandering in the wilderness and the infiltration of Canaan to between 1500-1400 BC. Pharoahs of this time being Hatshepsut Tuthmosis III. ( this seems most likely since at this time the Thera eruption occured which may have caused the plagues).

[Edited on 30-5-2003 by Maddas]

Reply to maddas
Jericho: (Joshua 6:1-24) Major, strongly fortified city captured and burn by Joshua
Evidence now points to destruction around 1400 BCE
www.ldolphin.org...
Ai: (Joshua 8:19-28) Major, strongly fortified city captured, burnt and made permanent ruin
"Millard believes that the villagers would only use Et-Tell as a stronghold when under attack (1985, 99). The name "Ai" means "ruin," so Ai was destroyed earlier, but reused only as a fort. This seems to be the best explanation.
www.bibleandscience.com...
Hazor: (Joshua 11:10-12) A royal city captured and burnt by Joshua, but subsequently reoccupied by the enemy.
Still controversy:
www.bibleinterp.com...

This is a really impressive discussion and I don't want to take it off beam.

I believe in a supreme being that is in all of us.

I also believe that the Holy Bible, the Qu'ran and the Tanakh are stories composed by many, edited and re-edited, quoted and misquoted through history with other than sincere purposes. In each of them, "man" has created "God" in "his" own image.

These documents are the basis for all social controls around the western and middle eastern worlds today. God (in my opinion) is not an entity to be feared, yet in every case fear of God is a major element of social oppression.

I just want to say this on this topic:

* jagdflieger, I sincerely hope you get through whatever is going on that is troubling you, and remain in this forum for as long as you wish to be

* the level of research, argument and counter-argument here is more detailed than anywhere else I've seen in a debate. The Bible sure encourages detailed study and digging.

In response to jagdflieger's original scientific inaccuracy question, I have only a difficulty with the part that says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" and everything that follows.

How f**king presumptuous that the heavens are out there unexplored and that the earth has some special place in the Creator's plan? How geocentric and homosapiens-centric.

Can this in part explain why many religious American people can't look outside their special place in God's plan and see what is going on on this planet?

Reply for MaskedAvatar

How f**king presumptuous that the heavens are out there unexplored and that the earth has some special place in the Creator's plan? How geocentric and homosapiens-centric.

This brings to mind some dicussions I have had with believers and non-believers concerning the size of the universe. The contention is: The universe is so big, how presumptuous of us humans to think that God has some special place for us. I have no problem with the human race being alone in a huge universe (if that proves to be the case). The Bible is silent on the possiblity of other beings on other planets; it is concerned with our relationship with God. Here are some ideas on the subject:
1. It is a demostration that Jehovah is a RBG (REALLY BIG GOD). The gods of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians were basically supermen and wonder women in drag. The gods could only control a portion of the environment (e. g., Poseidon - the sea) and did not possess the power of creation. Jehovah is the God of creation, the God of everything. It is a demostration of God's greatness.
2. It is a demostration that the believer should never worry about material needs. That in Paradise, God can always create whatever material is required.
3. It is a demostration of what is important to God. God created a huge universe. On one small planet, He placed man. Man is what is important to God. God is saying that He values relationship and fellowship far above material.