there must be something outside of the universe!!!

reply to post by Jordan River


The idea of universe you speak of from the big bang onward is actually better called the 'time space continuum' and is there something outside, well most top physicists actually believe there is the name they give this outside space is usually superspace, now the term universe apply's more accurately to all of this.

Let's look at the big bang a moment as you mentioned time, Well the big bang is a belief that the whole universe began from one sudden explosion of energy into the nothingness? that surrounded it, does not really make sense doese it.

SO what is a big bang, there are ideas that a primal point of matter exploded now what would that point actually be?


In quantum theory there is a belief that of all the forces native to our own continuum gravity and time may be the weakest, gravity is for example far weaker than electromagnetism, millions of time's weaker and some quantum physicists believe it may originate from somewhere else in superspace.

There is a theory called membrane theory, now it will be hard to percieve but imagine our universe as a flat sheet drifting in superspace and somehow it collides with one or more other sheet's called membranes, the interaction between these membranes creates ripples on our sheet.

Now imaging that instead there are three sheet's that are lying together, one is where gravity comes from and our sheet like a sheet of blotting paper on a wet cloth has that gravity soaking through it, the other is where time and energy come from and lies on the other side of our sheet from gravity so we are in between and indeed out universe may only exist as that, a interaction between these two other sheet's.

So that would mean gravity is everywhere right, like at a universal constant so how does matter have more gravity than empty space, well it has to do with the fact that matter and empty space are made of the same thing, matter is like the sheet or let's call it string for now, rippled up and held in a tangle, the denser the matter is the more of this sheet or string there is in a given volume so since the gravity is coming through that sheet equal all over it then were there is more of it in less space there is obviously more gravity.

Now Time, well as gravity can be held in less volume the time may come from the other sheet and gravity pull's on it slowing it while it tries to flow the other way back to it's own membrane, we see this as causality action and reaction but dense gravity does strange thing's to the way time flow's or is perceived to flow from a point observing such as in einsteins relativity.

Look at a solid base ball in your hand, now imagine there was no other matter, were is the mass if you are at the centre of it? Yes it is all around, now that means all that scrunched up space is all around that point and therefore all the gravity must be pulling outward on a tiny point at the centre of the base ball in all directions equally but the pressure keeps that point really really small.

Now let's scale that up a little to, oh let's say a blue supergiant bigger than betelgeuse (a giant star) and imagine that the star has reached the point were there is insufficiant hydrogen left to maintain it's fusion to mass ratio and so it collapses under it's own weight, but wait a minute there what about that tiny tiny point at the centre - well it get's crushed smaller and smaller but as the star collapses lets say it becomes what we call a black hole.

A true black hole is a peculiar object as it's mass equals the universal constant so it is as heavy as everything else in the universe combined (regardless of the mass of the star is it has collapsed into the source of gravity.)
Now around the exterior terminus of a black hole is a region called a event horizon and long before anything reaches this point he fabric of the universe is pulles so taught that it litterally gets pulled out of existence, now the region just above a black hole event horizon may be called a grey whole by some but the black hole can still exist beyond that point so light outside an event horizon could be stuck but if it passed into an event horizon it would cease to be.

Now let's go back again to that little tiny point, well suddenly as small as it is the point is pulled by a near infinite gravity outward in all directions and as it is essentially now an isolated piece of the universe it becomes inverted at it's centre and the other sheet opposite from the one the gravity comes from is pulling into infinitisimally short contact with the gravity membrane through this inversion, the result is that in this tiny point the gravity touches the other membrane and it explodes with universal force into that point, now another even horizon exists in a black hole, the one around that tiny tiny point.

So there is a big bang and it happened inside a black hole inside a univese with probably the same law's of physics but relative to the outside univers time in the new one would move at first much much faster, the rupture of the inversion lasts for only the briefest instant and the gravity of the surrounding black hole still tugs at the new universe, so no need for dark matter then, also the asymetry of the universe where there are clumps of matter and energy place oddly can be explained like this, the black hole that triggered the white hole (white hole is the same as big bang) and the formation of the time space continuum was actually spinning very very fast and the point at the exact centre was also uncertain as to is own exact centre while the gravity vortex lensed at it was pulling with some varience.

Now how doese time behave, well I have difficulty with the concept of then, now and when, for me time is a cone and parrallel reality's exist at varient to each given point of refference like a cone moving outward and back, there are mathematics but I do not count the numbers in standard linear equations so would have great diffictulty framing it thus, suffice it to say I see them.

Now bear in mind this is only my idea but is based on good factual information and theoretic hypthesis.

So yes there is something outside the univers but by definition that is still the univers so what is outside that?.

intrptr
reply to post by Jordan River

 

I said this in an earlier thread.

The problem with us wrapping our head around infinity is that we have a finite viewpoint.

Our lives begin and end. The day begins and ends, movies begin and end.

Its been trained into us to view the world, the universe, whatever to have a beginning and an end.

Our minds can only go so farrr… before our eyes glaze over and our minds disassociate.

There is no proof that the Universe ends. If there was, we'd have pics.

But really, stretch out your arm alll the way to the "wall" at the end of the Universe… whoops there isn't one. It goes on forever. And since it goes on forever it has therefore been there forever.

Which is plenty of time to fill it with stuff.

There is no beginning or end to forever.

That's a damn good answer

taoistguy
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

and so we're back to thinking of it as scientifically again, as some type of 'matter'?

Of course I'm thinking about it scientifically, that's the only rational way to think about it. Mysticism and pixie dust isn't going to get anyone anywhere when it comes to understanding the universe. I never mentioned anything about matter, I talked about the idea of space-time being a bubble floating through some type of void. Now obviously it's hard to explain what the void might be with respect to a bubble space-time, and I completely agree that it's not logical to require the existence of such a void. That is one of the reasons why I think space-time is infinite and not a bubble existing in a void. There simply is no end to space-time. The big bang was simply a release of energy which occurred in already existing space-time.

Uhmmm this coming out of my butt

If our universe is a balloon and we step outside of space, we also step outside of time as well. But for me time and consciousness are one and the same thing,

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


but it's the scientific thinking and logic causing everyone to get confused cos they're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. only by not thinking of these 'things' as things will one start to understand.

'void' is still a 'thing'...there is no spoon.

reply to post by taoistguy


People are confused because science has no solid answer to this problem and what we now know is not consistent with what people were taught in school not that long ago. People have been taught incorrect information and now that science is changing and updating its theories people have trouble adjusting their whole interpretation of what the universe is.

And I didn't say there was a damn void, I said space-time is infinite if you bothered to read my whole post.

ChaoticOrder

taoistguy
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

and so we're back to thinking of it as scientifically again, as some type of 'matter'?

... I talked about the idea of space-time being a bubble floating through some type of void. ...

reply to post by taoistguy


Yes, I talked about it, in order to pave the way for explaining why it is most likely wrong. Which is why it's important to read my whole posts to understand my position.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


ah. i see now. i stand corrected.

If there is no time in space (its distorted in our sense of time) what would that be like? If no time than the universe might become clear (as one person said - no beginning and no end).

reply to post by Dianec


as humans, our eyes and ears are designed in a certain way and so we see and hear in a fixed parameter. likewise, our sense of 'time'. we do not perceive correctly if we fix and limit our understanding so.

Jordan River
The big bang can be considered equivalent to a dot on a peice of paper. With a line that represents time.! So a line is present ,past and future. So what the hell is the peice of paper????????

Perhaps there was no paper. Just a dot.

What I'm saying is that maybe there was no universe (i.e., NOTHINGNESS -- no space, no time, just non-existence) outside that dot. I realize that nothingness is a nearly impossible idea for us to grasp, but that does not mean it is impossible.

Don't think of the big bang as an explosion of "stuff" into the universe; think of it as an explosion of the universe itself. The dot was the universe. there was nothing outside that dot. When the big bang occurred, that dot/the universe expanded.

to use 'logic'... there was a singularity...no time...in this 'no time' something happened...???

reply to post by taoistguy


I'm just really trying to imagine it - because if we can know what it might be like it may expand understanding of the universe. We can't exist outside of time though. Putting one of us in space - in a suit - would distort it but we are so time oriented it's impossible to set it aside. Maybe this is what people mean by the spiritual realm - attempting to step "out" to get "in".

“The Universe is very, very big. It also loves a paradox. For example, it has some extremely strict rules.
Rule number one: Nothing lasts forever.
Not you or your family or your house or your planet or the sun. It is an absolute rule. Therefore when someone says that their love will never die, it means that their love is not real, for everything that is real dies.

Rule number two: Everything lasts forever.”
― Craig Ferguson

I have always wondered what is beyond our universe and if there were maybe multiple universes.

Our universe may exist inside a black hole. This may sound strange, but it could actually be the best explanation of how the universe began, and what we observe today. It's a theory that has been explored over the past few decades by a small group of physicists including myself.

Successful as it is, there are notable unsolved questions with the standard big bang theory, which suggests that the universe began as a seemingly impossible "singularity," an infinitely small point containing an infinitely high concentration of matter, expanding in size to what we observe today. The theory of inflation, a super-fast expansion of space proposed in recent decades, fills in many important details, such as why slight lumps in the concentration of matter in the early universe coalesced into large celestial bodies such as galaxies and clusters of galaxies.

But these theories leave major questions unresolved. For example: What started the big bang? What caused inflation to end? What is the source of the mysterious dark energy that is apparently causing the universe to speed up its expansion?

The idea that our universe is entirely contained within a black hole provides answers to these problems and many more. It eliminates the notion of physically impossible singularities in our universe. And it draws upon two central theories in physics.

www.insidescience.org...

But then, I came back to worrying about our little lives on this speck of dust compared to all that ,that on which we live on.



Peace,
K

This universe could just be in a sneeze still on it's journey. Whatever it is makes us insignificant and utterly amazing in the same instant.

If space is infinite so is the micro world.

reply to post by 3u40r15m

That's a damn good answer

regards,

intrptr

reply to post by TheLieWeLive


Kind of reminds me of the story by Dr. Seuss in Horton hears a who.

reply to post by Jordan River

Millions...MILLIONS....of other COMPLETE UNVIERSES...on and on