Are Cherubim planes or spaceships?

Several places in Hebrew and Christian literature cherubim are discribed as vehicles, there are a few in the Bible, like:

Psalm 18:10 KJV

“And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly : yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.”

Other texts speak of multi-winged vessels of light, created by fire occupying the highest heaven just below where God is. Could names like “Samael” and “The Prince of Tyrus” be call-signs?

Sort of food for the imagination anyway:

— LORD Calling cherubim class destroyer Samael, what is your position? Report to LORD, over.
— Samael to LORD. Breached through outer clouds of Sol system, Genesis quadrant yesterday. Entering freefall procedure. Time set to Sol-360 and ETA Earth colony at 09:00 hours tomorrow morning. Docking with LUNA Farside for helium refill and density adjustments. Awaiting orders, over.

Anyone?

All mysteries in the world lead to ufo's and ufology. So that's what this is most likely about. There is a lot in the bible pertaining to ufology. The flying scrolls, in the literal translation that word also meant cylindar, as in cigar shaped ufo's, and that passage that is directly about those visiting people who were drunkards or thieves or who hadn't worn their clean underwear, but also was about a see through topped saucer craft, with a woman pilot and they were transporting things to a base in Sumar. The literal translation by Mauro Biglino showed choices of wording basically and cleared up some of the passages nicely that already pointed to ufology but were not translated clearly. When you have 70 possible meanings to some of the words, based on which vowels are inserted, and you insert translations that don't mesh with the other words in the passage, you can really obscure the entire thing.

Moses was led by a red light covered craft, to mount Sinai, which was alot like Mount Shasta, and cloud ships are there. We've seen the red lit craft, return over and over as well, and it was chased by choppers. We've seen the cigar shaped craft as well, but had a better experience with it, it wasn't negative, a connect to the craft. It was flying tail down, nose in the air, with a wedge shaped yellow-white light covering it that had height and my son told me right away how it was making that height to the light that covered it, because its nose was elevated.

Isn't it possible that it was all JUST fiction?

I mean, if a researcher from 3000 AD stumbled upon a Star Trek movie he might believe we REALLY had intestellar spaceships in our time, which we all know isn't true...unfortunately...

I think when we analyze ancient works we should definately take that into consideration.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


In Ezekiel 1 we see a very detailed description of some living creatures in Ezekiel's famous, and often misinterpreted, vision...

1 In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

2 On the fifth of the month—it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin— 3 the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, by the Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians. There the hand of the Lord was on him.

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. They each had two wings spreading out upward, each wing touching that of the creature on either side; and each had two other wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.

15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like topaz, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not change direction as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked something like a vault, sparkling like crystal, and awesome. 23 Under the vault their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

25 Then there came a voice from above the vault over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. 26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

We know that these "living creatures" are the Cherubim because in Ezekiel 10:15 we see...

15 Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River.

Cherubim is plural...Cherub is singular, and they are living creatures, much like the four Seraphim, or "four beasts", seen by John in Revelation 4. The main difference being that Cherubim have four wings and Seraphim have six wings.

6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

the book of enoch is a great source for these sorts of ruminations!

www.bibliotecapleyades.net..." target="_blank" class="postlink">enoch and ufos

www.bibleufo.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">more enoch & ufos

OptimusSubprime
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

In Ezekiel 1 we see a very detailed description of some living creatures in Ezekiel's famous, and often misinterpreted, vision...

Hebrew name 'Eve' and the word for what is translated 'beast' or 'living creature' are almost identical, hence the name 'Eve' means 'Life'.

@Madhatter: An anachronism to some perhaps, but what if the ancients saw through the eyes of people living today, playing EVE Online, commanding armies of starships in great wars living out the fantasy of being star war generals:

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


Quite possibly considering their description fits the bill.

Its not like the Bible ever describes Angels as resembling Man!

reply to post by andy06shake


Daniel discribes Gabriel as a son of man. Generals and princes Gabriel, Michael and the other arch angels may be commanders or pilots in Jahveh's interstellar fleet of spaceships. Awesome!

reply to post by MadHatter364


Anything is possible where God and religion are concerned.

I don't think we are supposed to take the interpretations literally but if indeed it is fiction, what influenced its creation?

Consider this, the truth is generally stranger than fiction.

reply to post by andy06shake

what influenced its creation?

...Birds?

reply to post by MadHatter364


Or the Sun, Moon and stars. The wind/rains, winter/summer. Humanity seems at ease assigning deity's to just about anything connected to nature. One has to wonder if after all there is more than meets the eye.

Generally all of these Gods are humanoid by depiction, why do we feel the need to anthropomorphize nature?

Oh sure, because of all the other writings collaborating the existence of planes 3000 years ago.

I'm sure they fueled up at the nearest airport, too.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


The idea of angels (all, a specific class, or individual ones) being spaceships would be anachronistic in the Bible, as nothing else in the whole books suggests an extraterrestrial source. In fact, nothing suggests a knowledge greater than that of an Iron Age people. I don't mind a nice science-fiction epic myself every once in a while, but, ancient mythology isn't really the proper place to look for it. There's plenty of interesting lore in the study of UFOs without having to dig into the religions of man.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


What about the Antikythera mechanism? That particular device is a little further along the technological scale and in my opinion can hardly be considered to be Iron age technology. I know its not from any book but it certainly seems out of place and time. Kind of hints that the ancients knew more than we are led to believe.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by andy06shake


The Antikythera device isn't "alien technology" though. It was certainly ahead of its time, but not beyond the realm of possibility for ancient Greek inventors. Especially when you consider, as wiki says:

This machine has the oldest known complex gear mechanism and is sometimes called the first known analog computer,[13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20] although the quality of its manufacture suggests that it may have had undiscovered predecessors[21] during the Hellenistic Period.

source

Not to mention the prevalence of automatons in Greek mythology (you'll even see the Antikythera linked in that very article). There is still a great difference between building a complex astrolabe, and building interstellar spaceships though.

Consider the Viking longboats (longships). At the time (AD 900 - AD 1300), they were the most advanced methods of travel available on Earth. If a boat that could sail long distances, and up rivers, was considered revolutionary 2000 years after the time when the stories of the Bible were being written, then something absolutely catastrophic must have happened to the entire planet in the intermediate period to make us all forgot about spaceships,jet fuel, and rocket boosters, while we slid back to using long, wooden ships. (Not to say Viking longboats aren't awesome - because they totally are)

Mythology and science-fiction are both very cool topics, and I enjoy them each greatly, but you demean and devalue the importance and beauty of myth, by turning it into science-fiction. Mythology is not meant to be logical, scientific, or predictive of the future. It is meant to convey spiritual, mystical, and religious truths; something aimed at the heart, not the head necessarily.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


IMHO yesterday's mythology is tomorrow's science fact regarding technology.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9

Both the heart and the head are a requirement for understanding most things in this verse, you cant utilise one over the other without creating a measure of imbalance.

Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Utnapisjtim

 

The idea of angels (all, a specific class, or individual ones) being spaceships would be anachronistic in the Bible, as nothing else in the whole books suggests an extraterrestrial source. In fact, nothing suggests a knowledge greater than that of an Iron Age people. I don't mind a nice science-fiction epic myself every once in a while, but, ancient mythology isn't really the proper place to look for it. There's plenty of interesting lore in the study of UFOs without having to dig into the religions of man.


~ Wandering Scribe

I do believe that the gods of the ancient stories came from elsewhere in the universe and that they through time has spawned, designed and reshaped life down here, aswell as leveling the orbits of the planets and so on. You need pretty advanced technology if you'd do that. Technology we are just now developing. The seers and prophets claimed to see the future. What if they saw people playing EVE or something even more fantastic, human-made intergalactic spaceships a few hundred years from now?

I believe the Kherubim was just symbolism for The Four Elements.

Other Kherubim-related symbolisms:
- The Four Living Creatures; Bull, Lion, Angel/Man, and Eagle
- The Lammasau; Flying human-headed bulls
- Four angels that served God; Gabriel, Yesod...
- The Fixed signs of the Zodiac; Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, and Aquarius.
- Mooladhara chackra with its four petals

reply to post by MerkabaMeditation


Is God's throne in the center symbolising the Sun a sign of heliocentric world view? Around the throne are the four Seraphim: Planet Mercury with its traditional four faces? Next is the Morningstar Lamb: Planet Venus? And is planet Mars symbolic of the Word of God how he is clad in blood red garnment? Just a thought....

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

I do believe that the gods of the ancient stories came from elsewhere in the universe and that they through time has spawned, designed and reshaped life down here, aswell as leveling the orbits of the planets and so on.

I don't think recorded mythology supports your belief.

Begin with Egypt (a culture you've mentioned in a handful of other threads):

Geb and Nuit are two of the most important deities in the Ennead. If you look at either of them, though, you will find that they are personifications of the literal Earth, and the literal starry sky. Not that they are beings from another planet who came down and shaped us, but our world, and our atmosphere itself.

Take Osiris as well. His green skin is simultaneously symbolic of his state of death (decay) but also that of a seed waiting to rise to new life (consider, also, that Osiris, like Dumuzi, was the central figure of a vegetation cult).

A number of other figures, like Satet (Satis) and Anuket, who were the divine personification of the Nile river (Anuket), and its annual flood (Satet) also existed in Egyptian ritual and myth. You don't even need to look beyond Re, the personification of the sun as it travels through the daytime sky, to see the connection between Earth and ancient deities.

The Neters of Egypt were not space aliens, but manifestations of human consciousness. They were the anthropomorphic symbols of our understanding of the world, of Nature, and of ourselves. They represented the cycle of life, both mortal (human and animal), and divine (seasonal and celestial).

The seers and prophets claimed to see the future. What if they saw people playing EVE or something even more fantastic, human-made intergalactic spaceships a few hundred years from now?

You're misinterpreting the myths and tales.

Since I know you're familiar with Norse myth and religion, I'll use them for this example:

In Vǫluspá the völva is summoned by Odin. The völva is a seeress; a prophetess in possession of knowledge both ancient and yet-to-come. After relaying the history of the Earth, the rise and fall of the original Hrimthusars, and the coming of the Aesir, she is asked to relate future events.

Now, instead of talking about cities with massive skyscrapers, automobiles, airplanes, computers, or the internet, the völva recounts Ragnarok: the Twilight of the Gods. Her vision of the future is one of spears, swords, and shields; of bloody warfare, and of the return of the Eldjotnar, and the wrath of the children of Loki.

The völva did not see EVE: Online, or Star Wars, or any such thing that would relate to outer space, or the Universe at large. Instead, her prophecies were of the Earth (Midgard), of the home of the Aesir (Asgard), and of the swallowing up of both by the powers of Nature and chaos in the guise of ice and fire.

When you consider that a portion of the Norse Viking age was a mini ice age, and the eruption of an Iceland volcano around AD 930, it isn't hard to see that the völva was riding the threads of Earthly history to arrive at her conclusions, not some race of space aliens.

Even the Greek prophets and seers, who pepper the works of Homer and other epic literature, were only ever concerned with events related to the cultural clime, and societal trends of the time period. Take Cassandra, who knew the future but was never believed, none of her prophecies relate to anything beyond Greek culture, or Greek affairs.

Even Biblical prophets only ever discussed the future for Christians, and even some of their work is believed to have been culturally relevant (you can look up theories on the Number of the Beast relating to either Nero or Caligula; on the Book of Revelation detailing the corruption of the faith by Roman influence; etc., if you're interested).

At the end of the day I just don't see it. Mythology is not science-fiction, however much we may wish it were. So, instead of trying to reshape it into something that it is not, why don't we focus on learning why our ancestors found such beauty, poetry, and value in it as it has come down to us?


~ Wandering Scribe