"It Just Keeps Running and Running"

This thread is based on an article in the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung on November 12, 2013 and written about on a blog by Sepp Hasslberger. The newspaper's technical editors visited the home of inventor Thomas Engel.

Hasslberger's post is entitled "German Inventor solves permanent magnet motor puzzle - wants to 'give away' the discovery... ." Hasslberger says that Engel has figured out a way to have permanent magnets do actual work.

The motor is powered by neodymium magnets. Here is an excerpt from Hasslberger's translation of the German article, "It just keeps running and running" by Lukas Weber:

. . . During the three hours we are there, it is chugging along quietly, interrupted only by some experiments we will be talking about later. There is no noticeable development of heat. . . .

Engel's idea was that it should be possible to convert that power of the magnets into rotary motion. He built a machine made of brass, resembling a miniature lathe. The rotor is a disc with magnets fixed to it. The shaft turns in ceramic bearings. A disc magnet fixed at the correct angle and distance from the rotor but which itself is able to rotate (Engel calls it the mirror) can affect the rotor magnets. There is attractive and repulsive force, depending on the orientation of the poles: the rotor can thus be set in continuous motion, as long as the mirror keeps rotating. The mirror's rotation regulates the speed of the rotor.

The exact form and disposition of the parts is difficult to ascertain, Engel had to experiment at length with those parameters. If the mirror is a tad too distant, the magnetic field breaks down. On the other hand, if it is too close, the neodymium magnets will rip the construction apart. The mirror hangs in a kind of outrigger. Two electric wires connect to the lower end with crocodile clips. There is a tiny electric motor that rotates the mirror. So it isn't possible to do without electricity altogether? The inventor signals his disagreement. "Eight milliamperes at nine volts", he says. That is only a control mechanism. The power at the shaft is much greater. Engel also thought about a mechanical drive for the mirror directly from the rotor shaft, but opted against this as it would considerably increase mechanical complexity.

We wanted to know more. The rotation is about 400 RPM. We don't have an instrument to measure mechanical power. So we are having to use the finger brake. It is difficult to stop the rotation by grabbing the shaft. The motor only comes to a standstill after considerable heat developed on the calluses of our hands. A little hand made propeller out of plexiglass doesn't impress the motor at all; we would really like to know how much power the machine turns out. With a bit of dexterity, one can turn the mirror by hand and set the rotor in motion. There is hardly any resistance when turning the mirror. We therefore hazard an assertion: The output felt at the shaft is clearly greater than the input needed to give the impulse. Of course measurement was only done with human sensors.

It would be possible to put a second rotor on the opposite side, to be addressed by the same mirror. Holding a screwdriver between the mirror and the rotor in operation results in an oscillating motion of the screwdriver between the magnets, without however touching them. Mr. Engel would like to do more experimentation with the number of magnets and their form, but he says he lacks the strength for further development.

blog.hasslberger.com...

reply to post by Mary Rose

Theres this old adage…

"something from nothing…"

I really wish it were true. It would have to violate the known laws of Physics, though.

As soon as he puts a load on the shaft to produce power enough to turn a generator that gets more energy out than is put in, let me know.

intrptr
It would have to violate the known laws of Physics, though.

Isn't that only for a closed system?

Magnets are not forever lasting, they run out of energy.

It can't run forever.

Mary Rose

intrptr
It would have to violate the known laws of Physics, though.

Isn't that only for a closed system?

Thats different than what the threads article is "purporting". More energy out than in. The finally invented never heretofore discovered perpetual motion device.

Thats a violation of the (known) laws of physics.

In recorded history not one of mans inventions has succeeded in doing that.

But there will always be someone trying to convince us they have.

all magnets lose power over time as they are used, think of them like a battery, you put energy into them, then extract it slowly over time as you use it. The more you use it though the faster it will lose its magnetism.

The amunt of magnetic power and duration of its use depends on the coercivity of the material it is made out of.

Mianeye
Magnets are not forever lasting, they run out of energy.

It can't run forever.

Sounds more like a cheaper energy device versus Perpetual motion device.

Hasslberger added this comment to his blog article:

if you read this translation of the article carefully, there is a good description of how the motor works.

Unfortunately I have no more data or direct contact to the inventor.

The way I read it, he uses flat disk neodymium magnets, that are fixed to a rotor (presumably placed in a fashion that they show alternating poles going around the disk.

One more of those magnets is hung in a rotatable fashion on an outlayer that keeps it a constant distance from the rotor. That "mirror" magnet is motorized.

As the mirror turns, it will attract and repel the two closest magnets on the rotor, attracting the approaching one, repelling the other receding one.

As the approaching magnet passes, the mirror completes a half turn and the simultaneous attraction/repulsion repeats, this time with inverted magnetic poles.

The mirror is motorized to control RPMs, the energy expended to turn the mirror is considerably less than that which is output by the shaft that's driven by the rotor.

Simple principle - no magnetic shielding involved, only clever arrangement of magnets in a dynamic configuration...

blog.hasslberger.com...

intrptr

Mary Rose

intrptr
It would have to violate the known laws of Physics, though.

Isn't that only for a closed system?

Thats different than what the threads article is "purporting". More energy out than in. The finally invented never heretofore discovered perpetual motion device.

Thats a violation of the (known) laws of physics.

In recorded history not one of mans inventions has succeeded in doing that.

But there will always be someone trying to convince us they have.

Agreed!!!!

Though I wouldnt say it is impossible, as in it could never under any situation be accomplished as we humans do not know everything.

It is as we understand the workings of the universe at present though, not currently possible in any known situation.

I hold out hope that one day,but realistically.......even the smartest men that ever lived couldnt solve this.

Da Vinci, arguably one of the smartest, if not the smartest man to have ever lived in recorded history, created helicopters airplanes and tanks all long before the modern era, he even put quite alot of effort into this project to come up wanting.

interupt42

Mianeye
Magnets are not forever lasting, they run out of energy.

It can't run forever.

Sounds more like a cheaper energy device versus Perpetual motion device.

How much energy and rescources went into making the material for the magnets, then energy to charge them? I will bet actual money it is factors more to create the magnets than they will ever be able to give back.

Besides, how much power can it make? a couple of volts? Just to buy the magnets would cost you alot more than buying that much electricity.

intrptr
Thats a violation of the (known) laws of physics.

Meh, those are open to revision.

What makes me doubt the claim is that if someone wants to give something away then, why don't they just give it away. Write up a how-to in whatever format they can and get it out there.

The story is from 2 months ago. Even if the old guy isn't net savvy the newspaper has to be filled with people who could have taken the details and plastered it all over the net.

reply to post by intrptr


How would you define a closed system?

How would you define an open system?

Do you believe there is such a thing as an open system?

I'm not saying this invention is an open system. I'm just trying to clarify "the laws of physics."

reply to post by oblvion

Though I wouldn't say it is impossible, as in it could never under any situation be accomplished as we humans do not know everything.

I totally agree with that too. Thats why I said "known" laws of physics.

As an aside, I have been personal witness to an out of this world craft that made impossible maneuvers at impossible speeds without making any noise.

So, I remain hopeful.

reply to post by daskakik

Meh, those are open to revision.

Show me.

Mary Rose
reply to post by intrptr

 

How would you define a closed system?

How would you define an open system?

Do you believe there is such a thing as an open system?

I'm not saying this invention is an open system. I'm just trying to clarify "the laws of physics."

I would assume he meant the scientific definition"In the natural sciences an isolated system is a physical system without any external exchange – neither matter nor energy can enter or exit, but can only move around inside.This can be contrasted with a closed system, which can exchange energy with its surroundings but not matter, and with an open system, which can exchange both matter and energy. Truly isolated systems cannot exist in nature, other than allegedly the universe itself, and they are thus hypothetical concepts only. An Isolated system is a flask no heat can exit nor can any heat enter. [1][2][3][4] It obeys, in particular, to the first of the conservation laws: its total energy - mass stays constant"

en.wikipedia.org...

As per wikipedia anyways, if you count that as scientific.

intrptr
reply to post by daskakik

 

Meh, those are open to revision.

Show me.

Yes plz, show us all one single time they have not been accurate? There is no Revision" possible at this time. I am not saying we know everything, but we do know these things quite well.

Your above quoted statement is like me saying "gravity pulling things to the ground is open to revision."

These laws are as solid as any fact known in science.

Hasslberger also posted this YouTube video as illustrating a permanent magnet motor apparently based on the same principle as Engel's:

reply to post by intrptr

Show you what?

the link says that the 'mirror' disk must be rotated. What rotates it? Where does that power come from? Or is it mechanically linked to the rotor? Since they state that the speed that the motor spins is dependent on the speed of the 'mirror', I can't imagine that they are linked, unless it it through some variable clutch, pulley or gearing system.

reply to post by Mary Rose


I love this guy already. I've always loved magnets, pretty much to the point of pursuing a career in electric magnetics. I haven't started school yet and I barely understand the field, but this engine is one of the reasons I've wanted to be an engineer. So, I see there's talk of this contraption not working but from just personal experience, I've learned that if you can see it logically done in your mind then why not in practical life.( I gained this philosophy through an art called Poi here's a link and brief history www.poipoi.info/...Poi/History-of-Poi.ht...) I think it's about time people actually started caring enough about knowledge instead of a quick buck( which would get you a lot further then a dollar). And it seems he's trying to go the way of Tesla, wherein he's not asking for money for the invention, he want s to give it away to someone that can actually put it into production. It does seem he might want a lab or workspace for improving his invention but wouldn't you?
I actually haven't logged in for a good couple of months but saw this post and dicided it was about time. I will end with this though, how many scientist and people were told that they were crazy, insane, ludicrous or just plain stupid for pursuing an unimaginable goal?