Which is preferable: Secular Education or Theocracy?

I am sick and tired of the Rightwingers demonizing and vilifying "Progressives." So, my question is to you "God-fearing believers" -
what is it you think the "Progressives" are trying to do??

What is it you want the country to look like? And WHY? If you could wake up tomorrow morning and everything was, in your opinion, finally perfect - what would the day be like for you? For your children? Your family?

It feels as though you consider "Progressives" THE ENEMY - and I don't understand why anyone wants a stagnant or "regressive" society.

We need to make PROGRESS. Have any of you even really LOOKED at the Progressive Movement's various organizations, movers and shakers, platforms, etc? If so, what 'outlet(s)' did/do you use to make your assessment? What is your fundamental problem with a secular society that allows religious options (pro, con, neutral)? Not Glenn Beck's, or Pat Robertson's, or Rush Limbaugh's, or Fox News's. What is YOUR personal, fundamental problem with Progress?

Education toward adult achievement and life skills does NOT need to include "God." It is maths, science, history (whether or not history is "accurate" is a fine subject), social studies, civics, classical philosophy, literature, reading and writing, and whatever "tech" is deemed most important that should be taught in schools.

I realize I'm opening myself up to bunches of ridicule, backlash, and preaching here. So, I would ask that each respondent come to the table with a clearly formed, calm opinion based on the following premises:

Morals do not come from "religion".

No one "religion" is the "only, true, correct one."

Children do best in life when allowed to make up their own minds based on KNOWLEDGE of all options, and CRITICAL THINKING.

Progressivism is NOT communism.

So - what do you all think would improve if the entire country became a Theocracy?

Oh, and one other fundamental premise:

The USA is not a Christian nation, as established in 1776. The Founding fathers were Deists or neutral parties.

If my day was the way I wanted it?

I would wake up and take my child to the school of my choice, not the one determined for me by my zip code, paid for by my tax dollars, teaching whatever curriculum so-called appointed experts I have no say in and not held accountable to me deem to be the best.

You would do likewise.

This would be paid for by restructuring the concept of "public" education so that everyone receives an equal grant of money to follow their child. It's called a voucher. I call it my tax dollars following my child, and your tax dollars following your child.

And if the school I chose is radically different from yours and not what you would choose, then you would shut your cake hole and look after your own kids. I would do the same.

reply to post by ketsuko

then you would shut your cake hole and look after your own kids. I would do the same.

I've already looked after my own kids.
They are aware of ALL religions, and were allowed to decide whether they wanted to explore one or another. My daughter chose to join the Christian Youth Group - I allowed it. She went to camp, listened to the 'expert teachers' tell everyone they were pieces of crap and were born sinners - and sent them to bed. It wasn't until the next morning that they said, "Good news, everyone! You're all saved by the blood of Jesus!"

She stopped going as soon as the camp ended. My son is now dabbling in 'meditation' and exploring other avenues of "spirituality." They are both good citizens, in their 20s, and their lives don't revolve around "religion."

"Shut your cake hole"? Not very calm or civil.
You can start now, if you like, though. I'm not inclined to do so.

I hope these nut cakes fill their kid' s head with fairy tale, it means less competition for my kid in the world.

Nothing says hire me like a diploma from Disney Land"

My kid is going to learn about religions, all religion, not just the ones i was taught. Like these "change fearing" anti-progressives do.

An he will make his choice.

reply to post by ketsuko


Unfortunately (fortunately ) this would never work because of that pesky thing called the Constitution. Tax dollars can in no way fund a religious institution, school or otherwise, because religious institutions do not pay taxes themselves. I'm sure those institutions would love that concept though because they'd basically be making free money, that's not how capitalism is supposed to work.

reply to post by wildtimes


Your previous threads and this one start with an accusatory tone as though all Christians would like nothing better than to force your into things.

That's not what I want. I simply want the freedom to choose my way as I see fit as a parent, but you even have demonstrated that would have a problem with that and would "protect" my children for their own good.

So, no, in this I have a hard time being civil because your feelings in the past have made your attitude on allowing Christians on any stripe to raise their own children in accords with their beliefs amply clear. We should not be allowed to do it.

reply to post by luciddream

I hope these nut cakes fill their kid' s head with fairy tale, it means less competition for my kid in the world.

While that may be true - what about the kids who are indoctrinated into the "fairy tale" to their detriment (in terms of worthiness, critical thinking, self-esteem, cultural competency, and tolerance)?

Thanks for your contribution, though!

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Then stop taking my tax dollars so that I can use them to fund education.

However, there are countries in Europe who use this system. The money follows the child, and parents are responsible for deciding where the child goes.

Look at it as the government holding our money in trust to be sure we each save enough to enable our children to be educated, not as government dollars.

wildtimes
reply to post by luciddream

 

I hope these nut cakes fill their kid' s head with fairy tale, it means less competition for my kid in the world.

While that may be true - what about the kids who are indoctrinated into the "fairy tale" to their detriment (in terms of worthiness, critical thinking, self-esteem, cultural competency, and tolerance)?

Thanks for your contribution, though!

And when you can demonstrate to me that public education teaches actual critical thinking skills ... it doesn't. Maybe I'll reconsider sending my child to the private Christian school we're looking at, but currently, it's one of the top 10 private schools in the city. So, I guess they are doing something right.

reply to post by ketsuko

Your previous threads and this one start with an accusatory tone as though all Christians would like nothing better than to force your into things.

Really?
It's an "accusatory tone" to ask whether Theocracy is better than Secular Education and giving children options?

So - ketsuko - how much do you really know - KNOW - about the "Progressive" agenda? And from where did you 'learn' it?

What if there were, in every "zip code", a Muslim school, a Christian school, a Jewish school, an Atheist school, a Buddhist school...
and those children are taught that all the others who do not go to their school are WRONG and going to HELL?

Would you be fine with that?

I wouldn't. I asked for calm opinions, not accusations and ad-hominem attacks - what is so awful about non-religious education?
What is it you think "Progressives" are trying to do?

The idea is to be fiscally conservative and socially progressive, Libertarian. Both camps have good points and to throw them all out because you disagree with a few concepts is just silly, but Americans do it everyday when they toe their political or religious line.

My perfect day? I wake up, do whatever the hell I wanted to do and as long as it didn't directly negatively effect someone else not be bothered or harassed for doing what i wanted. Religion would play little to no role in my or anyone else's life in a public (government ran) area.

reply to post by ketsuko


If you want your children to be taught with Christianity in mind you have the option of sending them to private Christian schools. It may cost you a little more but you still have that option. No one is limiting you or your child's education or forcing them to attend secular schools, you will always have that choice.

Church and state are separate meaning state funded schools should never base their curriculum around religious dogma. The Constitution is there for a reason and it's not there to be rewritten.

reply to post by ketsuko

And when you can demonstrate to me that public education teaches actual critical thinking skills ...

I did: my kids were the examples I gave. I could also demonstrate my own education, my parents' educations, and the vast majority of my neighbors and friends.

You aren't open to the "Common Core" curriculum - why?

My niece is a first-year professional teacher of English in high school - in the public high school. At Christmas, a family friend came over and started challenging her - she's 23 years old!! And this guy was trying to push the Right-Wing "Common Core is Bad" onto her. She disagreed, civilly.

Any other demonstrations you need? Public schools do fine when the tax-payers participate - you could always run for the "Board of Education", and fight the "experts", I guess.

reply to post by ketsuko


It seems like your problem with public education is with the teaching content (fair issue to have, our education stinks in this country), but why do you seem to think that a religious school would be better at imparting critical thinking skills to your children as opposed to a secular school? Are you of the opinion that private secular schools are lacking in the teaching critical thinking skills department as well?

reply to post by ketsuko


Simply put, no. I used to think the same way, seeing as how I don't have kids, and in reality will probably never have kids, why should I pay any school taxes? Simple, because it goes toward the advancement of society as a whole. If you want to be a part of a society, or community, you have to contribute to it, and not just to your own little clan/family etc.

Now, I do think that schools need to be vastly improved. However, adding religion to them is not what I have in mind. Religion is a private and personal matter, and if you are relying on someone else to teach it, you are doing it wrong in my opinion.

There is no way to do it fairly in a public school. If you were to start teaching one religion, you would have to teach them all, and quite frankly, even in 12 years of school, there is not enough time. So teaching none at all is really the only way to go.

reply to post by wildtimes


Why are you presenting an "either/or" scenario? Why can't we have the liberty to choose what is best for ourselves and our children and leave each other alone?

reply to post by wildtimes


No, that's not what I said. Don't move the goalposts. I said my perfect day is one where I wake up and take my kids to the school I have chosen is right for them.

If you want to believe that it's a school that will teach them to become little haters who strap on bombs and blow up everyone who doesn't believe the same, I can't help your irrational fears. It sounds to me like you are the one with the problem with religion.

Yeah, there is always the risk that if you give people the freedom to choose that there might be "that" school out there and some parents might go there, but if you take the tack that most people want what is actually best for their children, then the majority of parents will choose schools that are good schools, even good schools that teach from a faith perspective. And those schools you are so scared of will not prosper or have many students.

So, bottom line - Why are you so anti-freedom?

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

Why are you presenting an "either/or" scenario? Why can't we have the liberty to choose what is best for ourselves and our children and leave each other alone?

We should, we do, and we can. I'm asking what Christian would-be Theocrats find wrong with Progressive thinking; how they got the impression they did, and what they think the "Progressives" are trying to do!

reply to post by ketsuko

So, bottom line - Why are you so anti-freedom?

What?
Anti-freedom? Madam, you are free to home-school, send your kids to Christian schools, send them to public schools and instill religion in them outside of school hours. No one is trying to take that away from you.

We have that freedom now - and the point is that 'religion' has no place except as an elective in schools - which offer Youth Groups for Christian kids.

I think you have bought into some kind of "public school systems are evil." I'm just asking WHY you think that. I'm not moving the goalposts. You are avoiding the question and instead attacking me.