President of Israel and the Antichrist

reply to post by Gryphon66

Can you remind me of the quotation from the Bible that uses the exact words "The Rapture" again? You know, like the blessed event where the Redeemed are gathered in the sky? This wouldn't be any of the verses using harpazo of course, as that word clearly and repeatedly means "to take by force, to abduct" and usually applied to women for the purpose of rapine (the same Latin root as rapture, btw.)

That is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16&17,
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
(2011 NIV)
It does use the Greek word, harpazo, and is the only place in the Bible which uses that word to describe an actual rapture.
It means to be "caught up".
It comes from the idea of a raptor, such as an eagle, hawk, or falcon and how it catches its prey.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The word for cloud in 1Tess 4:17 here is Nephele, feminine of Nephos. Nephele was a nymph in Greek mythology and related to the golden ram behind Jason's golden fleece:

Nephele married Athamas, but he divorced her for Ino. Phrixus and Helle, the son and daughter of Athamas and Nephele, were hated by their stepmother, Ino. Ino hatched a devious plot to get rid of the twins, roasting all the town's crop seeds so they would not grow. The local farmers, frightened of famine, asked a nearby oracle for assistance. Ino bribed the men sent to the oracle to lie and tell the others that the oracle required the sacrifice of Phrixus. Before he was killed though, Phrixus and Helle were rescued by a flying golden ram sent by Nephele, their natural mother.

en.wikipedia.org...

This story is somewhat similar to Paul's words, could he be refering to that story?

reply to post by Utnapisjtim

This story is somewhat similar to Paul's words, could he be referring to that story?

In an indirect way, as would be the case in using Greek words in general, where they all seem to have a sort of backstory.

I look at this use of clouds, and others in the New Testament, as a device to provide a means of conveyance to the scenes described.

Utnapisjtim
The antichrist is basically a Jewish ruler of Israel who rules for seven years and is elected from a vast multitude.

What's the difference with this and the system of presidency in today's Israel?

[1] He is the secular ruler of Israel (practically a humanist Messiah)
[2] He sits for seven years (Rev. speaks of a 7 year tribulation)
[3] He is elected through democracy (comes up from the sea)

So what you guys think? Would Shimon Peres fit the suit of the Antichrist? Doubtfully. There are antipopes, and there are also antichrists, rulers who do "evil in the eyes of God". But what do you think?

The AC will be Jewish by descent, but will have an atheistic belief system. Many Jews rejected Jesus when he came in person... And later many Jews rejected Mohammad when he came thereby blowing their final chance to accept Jesus as Messiah. Though many Jews converted to Islam, the remaining Jews will be subjected to face the AC. Because they rejected the Christ, they will end up facing the AC. The atheists and blasphemers among them will end up accepting the anti-Christ. The AC will be an atheist and blasphemer and his purpose would be draw to himself his fellow likeminded atheists and blasphemers. He will not be ''worshiped'' in the true sense of the word, but rather ''paid homage'' to perhaps through votes and support. The AC will mark his followers with his own mark, which is 'disbelief'. The forehead represents the frontal lobe, the part of the brain used to make choices (including the choice to reject God). The AC won't be a global dictator as often assumed, but his rule will be confined to a ''kingdom'' with Jerusalem as his capital. But God knows best.

jmdewey60
I look at this use of clouds, and others in the New Testament, as a device to provide a means of conveyance to the scenes described.

Sometimes I ride a cross-shaped ship through the clouds that sounds like thunders and waterfalls as it speeds accross the sky. No big deal though, anyone can these days. But must have been fascinating for the seers.

sk0rpi0n

Utnapisjtim
The antichrist is basically a Jewish ruler of Israel who rules for seven years and is elected from a vast multitude.

What's the difference with this and the system of presidency in today's Israel?

[1] He is the secular ruler of Israel (practically a humanist Messiah)
[2] He sits for seven years (Rev. speaks of a 7 year tribulation)
[3] He is elected through democracy (comes up from the sea)

So what you guys think? Would Shimon Peres fit the suit of the Antichrist? Doubtfully. There are antipopes, and there are also antichrists, rulers who do "evil in the eyes of God". But what do you think?

The AC will be Jewish by descent, but will have an atheistic belief system. Many Jews rejected Jesus when he came in person... And later many Jews rejected Mohammad when he came thereby blowing their final chance to accept Jesus as Messiah. Though many Jews converted to Islam, the remaining Jews will be subjected to face the AC. Because they rejected the Christ, they will end up facing the AC. The atheists and blasphemers among them will end up accepting the anti-Christ. The AC will be an atheist and blasphemer and his purpose would be draw to himself his fellow likeminded atheists and blasphemers. He will not be ''worshiped'' in the true sense of the word, but rather ''paid homage'' to perhaps through votes and support. The AC will mark his followers with his own mark, which is 'disbelief'. The forehead represents the frontal lobe, the part of the brain used to make choices (including the choice to reject God). The AC won't be a global dictator as often assumed, but his rule will be confined to a ''kingdom'' with Jerusalem as his capital. But God knows best.

edit on 30-1-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Oh dear. And when will this occur?

Harpazo is used 13 times in the NT, and EVERY over OTHER time besides 1 Thess it means something different???


That just boggles the mind.

Jumping to Latin, rapere means the same thing. Raptors SEIZE their prey, in the same way that a rapist SEIZES theirs. It's a negative word that implies violence and theft.

The Rapture is not a Biblical concept. Period. No matter how many semantic hoops one jumps through ...

... and neither is a "end-times" individual Antichrist, unless the end times were 2000 years ago.

But please continue to muddle in baseless self-contradictory beliefs because that is your God-given right as Americans to do so.

/eyeroll

Utnapisjtim

sk0rpi0n

Utnapisjtim
The antichrist is basically a Jewish ruler of Israel who rules for seven years and is elected from a vast multitude.

What's the difference with this and the system of presidency in today's Israel?

[1] He is the secular ruler of Israel (practically a humanist Messiah)
[2] He sits for seven years (Rev. speaks of a 7 year tribulation)
[3] He is elected through democracy (comes up from the sea)

So what you guys think? Would Shimon Peres fit the suit of the Antichrist? Doubtfully. There are antipopes, and there are also antichrists, rulers who do "evil in the eyes of God". But what do you think?

The AC will be Jewish by descent, but will have an atheistic belief system. Many Jews rejected Jesus when he came in person... And later many Jews rejected Mohammad when he came thereby blowing their final chance to accept Jesus as Messiah. Though many Jews converted to Islam, the remaining Jews will be subjected to face the AC. Because they rejected the Christ, they will end up facing the AC. The atheists and blasphemers among them will end up accepting the anti-Christ. The AC will be an atheist and blasphemer and his purpose would be draw to himself his fellow likeminded atheists and blasphemers. He will not be ''worshiped'' in the true sense of the word, but rather ''paid homage'' to perhaps through votes and support. The AC will mark his followers with his own mark, which is 'disbelief'. The forehead represents the frontal lobe, the part of the brain used to make choices (including the choice to reject God). The AC won't be a global dictator as often assumed, but his rule will be confined to a ''kingdom'' with Jerusalem as his capital. But God knows best.

edit on 30-1-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Oh dear. And when will this occur?

You asked your audience ''what do you think''......not ''when will he show up''. And I have told you what I think.

Gryphon66
and neither is a "end-times" individual Antichrist, unless the end times were 2000 years ago.

But please continue to muddle in baseless self-contradictory beliefs because that is your God-given right as Americans to do so.

/eyeroll

I pointed this out earlier in the thread but it mostly fell on deaf ears. The idea that there is one Anti-Christ who will bring about the rapture is laughable because it literally contradicts what is said in the bible. Christians who believe in an end times anti-christ are willfully ignoring scripture to parrot bad Catholic doctrine from the Dark Ages.

sk0rpi0n
You asked your audience ''what do you think''......not ''when will he show up''. And I have told you what I think.

No honestly, do you have some kind of timeframe? Working on something about a timeframe for Harmagheddon...

And please, I see more and more of it, please don't mess up the message syntax before posting so all quotes are visible and attributed to the right user. Syntax is everything

@Utnapisjtim.... ''No honestly, do you have some kind of timeframe?'' .......I don't have a timeframe. My guess would be as good as anybody elses.

sk0rpi0n
@Utnapisjtim.... ''No honestly, do you have some kind of timeframe?'' .......I don't have a timeframe. My guess would be as good as anybody elses.

Going to look into it anyway, seeing how Revelation is littered with astronomical and calendrial references of events supposed to be played out in a certain order, making it possible to find out possible dates for when these chains of events happen in time.

reply to post by Utnapisjtim


In this case, Im not really arguing whether or not the Bible is the word of God or the truth (personally, I think it is). Im simply showing how the bible poetically interprets itself. No outside information is needed to identify the biblical antichrist. Its all about poetic references and understanding them relative to their dispensations.

If you ignore dispensations, you get the thousands of sectarian arguments that exist today.

But, to get back to the topic, based on the dispensational understanding of the bible and its rhetorical meter, the antichrist is Nimrod in the flesh, and he is supposed to rise again within a 35.25 day window after the rapture. This may or may not be what you are looking for, but it is the numerically and diispensationally sound answer to your question.

reply to post by Gryphon66

Jumping to Latin, rapere means the same thing. Raptors SEIZE their prey, in the same way that a rapist SEIZES theirs. It's a negative word that implies violence and theft.

The Rapture is not a Biblical concept. Period. No matter how many semantic hoops one jumps through ...

That may be so, jumping through your own set of semantic hoops.

There is that word, harpazo, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and it seems to be indicating a positive thing, whatever it is.
The problem that I have with the way people use that verse is that they ignore the second half,
And so we will be with the Lord forever.
(2011 NIV)
where is does not leave room for all these events that they add in that are supposed to go on and on, with people supposedly who do not take part in the rapture.
According to Paul, it's End of Story, other than some heavenly existence of the saints.

Gryphon66
Hey Believerpriest:

Can you remind me of the quotation from the Bible that uses the exact words "The Rapture" again? You know, like the blessed event where the Redeemed are gathered in the sky? This wouldn't be any of the verses using harpazo of course, as that word clearly and repeatedly means "to take by force, to abduct" and usually applied to women for the purpose of rapine (the same Latin root as rapture, btw.)

Thanks in advance.

Dont have time for a full reply now, but the Rapture is both literally and figuratively found in the Bible.

Harpazo literally means to quickly or violently snatch away. This is describing how the Jewish groom takes his bride. The sexual connotation of rape describes the snatching associated with harpazo, but harpazo does not nessecarily mean, to rape or sexually violate.

Figuratively, the concept of the Rapture is unavoidable in the Bible if you understand how to properly analyze the poetic flow of scripture. Look at the Parable of the Virgins. The smart virgins are the Bride (Church) who are called out. The foolish virgins are Israel who missed the Messiah the first time around and must vigilantly for the 2nd Coming of the Son of Man (7 years post rapture).

Deny the rapture and you deny the Bride of Christ.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

Jumping to Latin, rapere means the same thing. Raptors SEIZE their prey, in the same way that a rapist SEIZES theirs. It's a negative word that implies violence and theft.

The Rapture is not a Biblical concept. Period. No matter how many semantic hoops one jumps through ...

That may be so, jumping through your own set of semantic hoops.

There is that word, harpazo, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and it seems to be indicating a positive thing, whatever it is.
The problem that I have with the way people use that verse is that they ignore the second half,
And so we will be with the Lord forever.
(2011 NIV)
where is does not leave room for all these events that they add in that are supposed to go on and on, with people supposedly who do not take part in the rapture.
According to Paul, it's End of Story, other than some heavenly existence of the saints.

edit on 30-1-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

In Norwegian 'Rappe' is slang for 'Stealing', reminds me of Jesus' words about him coming like a thief:

Revelation 3:3 KJV
"Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard , and hold fast , and repent . If therefore thou shalt not watch , I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

Look at the Parable of the Virgins. The smart virgins are the Bride (Church) who are called out. The foolish virgins are Israel who missed the Messiah the first time around and must vigilantly for the 2nd Coming of the Son of Man (7 years post rapture).

It's pretty clear to me, in my own interpretation of the parable of the ten virgins, that it is about the historic coming of the Messiah, Jesus, and the lack of spirituality among those who should have welcomed him.
I don't see in the parable any provision for a sort of do-over.

imdewey60: No semantic hoops here. I only say the word means what it means, the meaning which you agree with in the other 12 instances, but not in one, in which it suddenly means something totally different. That's merely special pleading.

BelieverP: I specifically refute that some sort of special knowledge is needed to read the Bible. It is a text, and either it means what it says or it's figurative. If it's figurative, then it can mean whatever one wants it to ... and although that is clearly what is at the core of the issue in my own estimation, for those who believe in the Bible, it can't be one thing and then another. It is either consistent or it's not. Why would Paul be so coy about it? Why would Paul make only one reference to such a momentous event? Sorry, there is no evidence for an event called in modern times "The Rapture." It was initially fabricated by Increase and Cotton Mather in the American colonies, and has been extemporized upon ever since. The Rapture has no place in either the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox traditions, nor in most of the Protestant traditions.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Not a do over, its the remaining time of Israel's age. Messiah was cut off in the 69th week, the 70th week must play out before He returns. Its simple math. The Church will be removed out of the way so that the Hebrews have the Last 7 of 490 years to repent.

When Jesus spoke the parable of the Virgins, He was addressing questions about the End of the Age at His 2nd Advent, not His first. Read all of Mat 24&25 for context.

I dont care how you cut it, there are still prophecies yet to be fulfilled, and they will happen on Israel's time, not the Church's time. Thats after the Groom snatches the Bride away, for when He returns at the End of the Age, He will be returning from His wedding party.