Tempio di Salomone

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


That is not what I am talking about, a lodge having a talk about esoteric subjects of an evening ie guest speaker who may or may not be a mason...I'm talking about initiation into esoteric "secrets", not something that would ever be discussed openly in a talk/lecture type setting.

LUXUS
That is not what I am talking about, a lodge having a talk about esoteric subjects of an evening ie guest speaker who may or may not be a mason...

And I am not referring to a guest speaker but esoteric ritual practiced only by Masons.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus



"esoteric ritual" practiced by a room full of masons and since you are able to attend these rituals in various lodges it is open to all masons then?

LUXUS
"esoteric ritual" practiced by a room full of masons and since you are able to attend these rituals in various lodges it is open to all masons then?

Not all, some are invite only.

LUXUS

Saurus

jaytay
Ok meaning the ritual initiations .

Change the ritual, and the Order would no longer be the same Order, even if everything else remained the same.

That is what happened to Freemasonry, modern speculative masonry is only a shadow of operative masonry, a bit like a fruit from which all the juice was sucked only leaving the worthless and dry husk.

In order for you do know this and be able to prove it, you would have to have some evidence of what was taught to ancient masons.

Speculative masonry exists for a specific purpose. It's lessons are taught the same way they have been so the message isn't lost.
If you pay attention to the rituals, you learn that first in the First degree lecture, and then in the Third degree second section ritual. But you would have to be a member to see it and understand it. Which is why it amuses us when a non member tries to explain masonry definitively.

network dude

In order for you do know this and be able to prove it, you would have to have some evidence of what was taught to ancient masons.

Speculative masonry exists for a specific purpose. It's lessons are taught the same way they have been so the message isn't lost.
If you pay attention to the rituals, you learn that first in the First degree lecture, and then in the Third degree second section ritual. But you would have to be a member to see it and understand it. Which is why it amuses us when a non member tries to explain masonry definitively.

Neither the history taught to speculative masons nor the rituals themselves are the same as those of operative masons and as stated correctly earlier by the other poster, change the rituals = change the order. So speculative freemasonry may use the symbols of operative masonry but it is a completely different order, one in which as I said the good stuff has been removed.

I suspect that high ranking operative seen the growing popularity of speculative masonry and got together to remove teachings, the way you do that is by changing the details of initiation rituals.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus



So your not talking about

1: attending other lodges to be part of the initiation ritual team on initiation nights or to be a member of the viewing audience.

2: Lectures/talks given in lodge on a subject which may or may not be esoteric in nature given by a brother or an invited guest speaker.

3: Masonic Prayer meetings to pray for other masons/ causes thought to be worthy.

reply to post by LUXUS


So all the mystery schools taught the same stuff? I doubt that. Which is why I have a hard time taking your word for how masonry used to be. Especially since you aren't a mason.

I don't see why masonry ever had to be anything more than it is right now. (speculative)

If you look into hermetic teachings, there is a lot of things there that have nothing to do with masonry. Which is why there is many different orders.

LUXUS
So your not talking about

1: attending other lodges to be part of the initiation ritual team on initiation nights or to be a member of the viewing audience.

Occasionally, but I am speciffically referring to a modified Degree Team where we administer special degrees that are invite only. A good number of lodges are moving towards strict obidience and this involves additional or modified rituals. A candidiate must meet certain qualifiactions in regards esoteria prior to joining.

reply to post by network dude


You might have a hard time believing it but yes they did, the esoteric teachings cover only a few subjects, you can literally count them on the fingers of one hand. Whilst one order may concentrate on one of these specific teachings there is a degree of overlap. In those times candidates would take initiation at a few mystery centers to gather the keys as it were.

As for masonry (operative) its chief mystery it was to confer on the candidate was the meaning of the lost word.

You will find your ritual initiation details are different, I will not go into specifics on this as I must keep my mouth shut on some matters but I can tell you that your rituals surrounding this have been so altered to make it impossible for you to gain this knowledge through your current rituals.

And that change was done quite deliberately in my opinion

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus



And how did these candidates become qualified on esoterica? who initiated them so that they are in possession of these teachings.

Anyone can create a ritual to impart a teaching but if you don't have the teaching in the first place then your not qualified to hide it in a ritual.

LUXUS
And how did these candidates become qualified on esoterica? who initiated them so that they are in possession of these teachings.

There are several proficienies that they need to demonstrate prior to initiation. Prior initiaites conduct the rituals.

Anyone can create a ritual to impart a teaching but if you don't have the teaching in the first place then your not qualified to hide it in a ritual.

Using this circular logic no one could create a ritual since they did not have it in the first place. Ritual (and other creative expression) does not form in a vacuum.

reply to post by LUXUS


You have to keep your mouth shut? If you aren't a mason, you can tell anything you like, as you never took a masonic obligation.
We agree on many subjects, but this one, I feel is just your opinion and it's wrong. Our teachings are specific and even the story where the word is lost has meaning and explains it's lesson very well.

Operative masons were in the business of building and using Geometry. There were not hordes of third degree master masons.
A master mason was something rare and special. It was a very, very different thing than speculative masonry, even though speculative masonry modeled itself from the appearance of it's operative roots.

By going this route, I think you cheapen the teachings that still exist, but are harder to find. Speculative masonry is more of a way to live life than it is a collection of secrets. But not being one, you might miss that.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus



These extra initiations you are creating are intended to be taken when, effectively creating more initiation rituals will produce more degrees of initiation (more then 32)

So essentially you are saying those who passed the degrees and have managed to interpret them correctly may be invited to take these additional degrees?

Since the rituals have been mutilated these people essentially would have had to acquire their knowledge elsewhere which is quite amusing, they are being used to rescue modern Freemasonry. If the knowledge was already in the rituals of the 32 degrees there would be no need to create additional ones.

reply to post by network dude


The universe operates on principles, some things are not to be openly given regardless of oath, I'm sure you can understand that.

If then you disagree with what I have said then you will fully understand the meaning of the lost word, if you don't then by virtue of that you will be forced to agree with me.

If these things are absent from modern masonry then there is nothing to cheapen, those who changed the rituals are the ones who have cheapened masonry.

LUXUS
These extra initiations you are creating are intended to be taken when, effectively creating more initiation rituals will produce more degrees of initiation (more then 32)

These rituals have nothing to do with the Scottish Rite and have no relevance to any degree number.

So essentially you are saying those who passed the degrees and have managed to interpret them correctly may be invited to take these additional degrees?

That is partially correct. There is more entailed than interpretation; one must also display proficiency in communicating one's understanding to both the already initiated and to future candidates.

Since the rituals have been mutilated these people essentially would have had to acquire their knowledge elsewhere which is quite amusing, they are being used to rescue modern Freemasonry. If the knowledge was already in the rituals of the 32 degrees there would be no need to create additional ones.

Your continued reference to the Scottsih Rite degrees shows you have a very poor understanding on how Masonry functions. Many of the particpants are not even in the Scottish Rite and are 'only' 3rd degree Masons. Additionally, your continued condescension towards what is contained in the rituals, despite you having never even particpating in them, is quite obnoxious as you have no understanding on what we may or may not be recreating for the candidiates.

You come across as smug and self-righteous with the aires of someone who thinks they are the only one who happens to 'know the truth' when in fact you know very, very little. Show some humility and stop denegrating that which you are not a part of based on your misinformed personal perspective.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Many of the rituals are now out in the open so I am free to examine them and determine their content. I am also free to examine older rituals of operative masonry and observe if something has been removed.

If someone told you they were a car mechanic how would you determine if they were telling you the truth, obviously you would question them about engine parts etc and their functioning.

I don't need to be a mason to ask a question and see if it can be answered.

I am not of the opinion that I am the only one who knows such things since I myself have had teachers that would be ridiculous, plus the antiquity of such teachings obviously demonstrates that there have been many who have known.

You conclude that I must be smug because I disagree that modern masons are in possession of these things, those that are found it themselves and would have probably found it anyway.

LUXUS
Many of the rituals are now out in the open so I am free to examine them and determine their content. I am also free to examine older rituals of operative masonry and observe if something has been removed.

The rituals we are using are not published nor do I think they will be in the near future.

network dude
reply to post by LUXUS

 

So all the mystery schools taught the same stuff?

I can only speak to that which I know personally, so take it for what it is worth. I have belonged to three Rosicrucian orders - one in Europe and two in the US. I am also a practicing Hermetic Qabalist. Outside of that, I have intimately studied other streams of wisdom including (but not limited to) Sufi , Chaos, left hand path, Sumerian, Vedic, and Celtic schools.

While there are definitive correspondences, I would say these these schools are NOT all taught the same information, nor do they serve the same purposes.

The illustration looks like the work of a serious scholar, but it is missing certain fundamental things to have been created by someone who had more than just theoretical knowledge.

Stil interesting, thanks for sharing, flag!