A new study about guns and gun deaths: Backs up what many have been saying all along

There is too much money involved with guns that people miss the big picture.

You waste so much time talking about guns and you never bring up important things in life.

I'm really disappointed that people can't read between the lines and see the gun debate is just a bunch of noise to distract you.

The NSA tracking the debate online is just bait for us and they gain intelligence on society based on endless discussion on guns.

The whole gun debate isn't really about guns, it's to make us stupid.

i'd rather be watched and watching than have to watch out for guns.

Thats because you can't make adult choices for yourself. I can't believe you posted such nonsense, you do realize how pathetic govt, kiss ass you sound?!! I, in no way feel sorry for you


Wow, it really bugs you that we have an opinion of our own, doesn't it.

We have a perfectly adequate functioning society without a heavily armed populace. Way fewer homicides, less social inequality, fair access to healthcare and education etc. The American system is not great, it frankly stuns the rest of the world that you think your system works best. Personally I'd pick the Nordic countries every time. We are also puzzled that so many of you seem to believe that we look to you for an example, because we don't. We like the tv shows and the food. Your social systems are nothing to brag about. Your position as 'world leaders' is also ending (happened to us, happens to every leader).

BTW, Big brother is not watching us in the UK. There are millions of little brothers watching everyone, including the state. This is a case of the people watching the people, and the people watching the state ,not some Orwellian superstate watching us for thought crimes.

reply to post by bl4ke360

Are you sure it's not because these people were conditioned from the very start of their lives to believe in the things they were told, as opposed to looking at US culture from an unbiased perspective? Here's an example, do you think it's only a coincidence that 99% of children of religious parents turn out to believe in that same exact religion themselves? Do you really think they made that choice for themselves or that their parents brought them up to believe in it? The answer should be obvious. People think they can think for themselves but really it's all coming from the way they were conditioned to think from the beginning of their lives

Of course this doesn't apply to gun loving Americans who brainwash their kids into thinking their liberty and safety depends on having guns.

We don't have guns, are less likely to be murdered, and have a perfectly normal relationship with our govt. In fact we think your's takes some whopping liberties after reading some of the things posted on ATS.

Plenty of nasty govts had heavily armed populations. Gun ownership did nothing until organised civil communication caused uprisings.

Guns just add a level of violence to your criminals.

monkeyluv

727Sky

monkeyluv
There are many factors that affect gun-related crimes, if not crime in general.

That is true however the article correlates restrictive gun laws with an increase in crime and murder rates.

A larger data set might reveal varied results. For example,

www.nytimes.com...

The Australians found gun crime and homicides dropped when they took away the guns.

Antigod The Australians found gun crime and homicides dropped when they took away the guns.

Good for them. I wonder how many guns per population already existed when they made that decision, compared to what we have got here.

game over man The whole gun debate isn't really about guns, it's to make us stupid.

This is probably true. In the end here at ATS we are likely more a fishbowl for considering public opinion than anything; the bigger picture of the most fundamental / constitutional laws in the USA may be changed only by elements more powerful than the will of the people we assume upon.

Antigod

monkeyluv

727Sky

monkeyluv
There are many factors that affect gun-related crimes, if not crime in general.

That is true however the article correlates restrictive gun laws with an increase in crime and murder rates.

A larger data set might reveal varied results. For example,

www.nytimes.com...

The Australians found gun crime and homicides dropped when they took away the guns.

But isn't that a bit disingenuous? If homicide by gun goes down but your overall homicide rate does not, you really haven't achieved anything.

reply to post by LurkingRelentlessly

"getting robbed, raped, or violently attacked is acceptable so long as you dont die from it"

I don't think anyone has claimed anything of the sort. Are such crimes non-existant in the US just because you have The Right to Bear Arms?

i guess thats why you folks live over there, and i live over here.

You can't seriously believe that is the ONLY reason or even the primary reason any of us live where we do, do you?

reply to post by NavyDoc

1). Surveillance does not stop anyone form being killed, it makes apprehending the criminal alter easier.

It certainly doesn't eliminate it, but I'd suggest that it certainly prevents a certain number of pre-meditated murders just as it prevents a certain number of other pre-meditated crimes in general.

2). You would seriously prefer an Orwellian society where everyone is watched, all of the time?

I think there's some sort of misconception regarding the number of surveillance camera's in the UK and their monitoring etc.
The vast majority of camera's are privately owned, mainly businesses of every description.
Images are recorded on to hard drives or other storage equipment and are only viewed when it is suspected that a crime has been committed or disciplinary actions have occurred.

The vast majority goes unviewed and are wiped after a period of time, normally between 7 - 28 days.
Images are not sent to some sort of central viewing area where 'the government' or anyone else views, monitors and regulates our every movement.

Sure, there are some camera's that are for traffic control and monitoring which can be accessed for other purposes if an offense has been committed that the camera may have captured. And most local authorities have a small number of camera's situated in town / city centre's, usually where the majority of bars are, which can be monitored.

I have no doubt there is a potential to misuse and abuse CCTV etc, and I don't doubt for one minute that there have been instances of it happening. Which is why their usage needs to be monitored on a regular basis by independent bodies to ensure no infringements on civil liberties occur.
But it would be erroneous to the extreme to allege that their presence hasn't had an impact on the number of violent crimes which contrary to what many may have you believe is actually going down.

An interesting report on crime figures in the UK;
www.theguardian.com...

I've ran my own pubs, had my own security firm and I still spend a lot of time in pubs and work the odd door and I can tell you from first hand experience that violence in pubs has reduced significantly over recent years and I'd venture to say that a lot of that is down to the presence of CCTV in nearly every single licensed premises.

Comparing UK and US statistics is apple and pears.

Slightly off topic I know but I hope that helps clear some of the popular misconceptions.

reply to post by Freeborn



Sad to say the falling crime rates all over the developed world are due to an aging population, the offender heavy group (15-25 males) makes up a smaller proportion of the whole every year. Offending happens at a lower rate as men age. I don't know if the youth offending rate has dropped at all since the sixties, it might be higher.


Although CCTV does have an effect. I saw one cracking video on crimewatch where a cctv operator stopped a stranger rape when he spotted some thug following a teenage girl out of the town centre, police car turned up just as he tried to drag her into a park area. I'm fine with our cctv. I reckon once we all carry 24/7 personal surviellance crime will plummet, and the conviction rate will soar and so will the length of the sentences. Go google glass.

reply to post by Freeborn


such crimes are non-existant to anybody bearing arms, in any place on the planet earth.

i seriously believe that is why i do not live in the UK. obviously i cannot explain why anybody lives in the UK. but thank you for being obtuse. hopefully the underscore helps you in your second attempt at understanding my simple statement.

reply to post by LurkingRelentlessly

such crimes are non-existant to anybody bearing arms, in any place on the planet earth.

No they aren't - its certainly less frequent but not non-existant.
Some people are murdered, robbed, raped etc even when they are armed if they are taken by surprise etc.
(How clever, I can underline things for emphasis to.)

Still I guess we are splitting hairs here.

i seriously believe that is why i do not live in the UK. obviously i cannot explain why anybody lives in the UK. but thank you for being obtuse.

So the only reason you live in the US is because you can carry a gun?
It has nothing to do with where you were born, how you were raised, family, your education choices, your life choices, relationships you may or may not have, career decisions or countless other cultural stimuli and life experiences that have helped shape you into the person you are today?
All those are irrelevant and the Right To Bear Arms is the only contributory factor? (I can do bold as well,)

I'm not being obtuse, I just have a different perspective and opinion, something that seems to be frowned upon by many in The Land Of The Free.

reply to post by Freeborn


I of course am willing to take a smack to my face for these nasty bastards we have elected...who are the ones afraid of our guns.
As to my defense of the earth well you tell me what would happen:
A bank rolled DHS is deployed to begin establishing safehavens (instead of gun free zones) these havens are primarily erected in our heavily populated areas.They are required by executive order to establish control,it doesn't happen...

This or one of many other scenarios are possible as the US economy starts to slouch,but wait,they'll just start another war with ,oh what does it matter at this point the EU wants us BOTH under heel.
We lost our children to nuts who used guns not just guns we are not affected by what crazies do.
My daughter lives there with you having married an RAF kid.Seems a good guy.
I'll never denigrate your people as not being my equal.But none are my superiors,nor I yours.

I am a former RECCE as you say, I see trouble coming ,I am reporting it to you ,take my report or dismiss it.

Antigod

The Australians found gun crime and homicides dropped when they took away the guns.

On the other hand, Australia does not represent all countries.

Thus, we have varying results when it comes to crime and gun control.

reply to post by cavtrooper7

I of course am willing to take a smack to my face for these nasty bastards we have elected...who are the ones afraid of our guns.

Not too sure I agree with you that our 'leaders' are afraid of your guns considering the weaponry and resources at their disposal, but I certainly agree in your assessment of them; they are corrupt, self-serving amoral egotists who have neither our interests or well being at heart.

As to my defense of the earth well you tell me what would happen:

If the US goes into some sort of downward spiral I'm sure it would have serious ramifications the world over.....but life would go on, as it always does and in time another nation would fill the void and become the world leader or superpower - that's the way its always been.

.....but wait,they'll just start another war with ,oh what does it matter at this point the EU wants us BOTH under heel.

Indeed.
I assure you, I have no affinity or liking for the EU.

I'll never denigrate your people as not being my equal.But none are my superiors,nor I yours.

Some common ground - sentiments I share.
Far too many assume the high ground based on misinformed notions of nationalism and blinkered perspectives.

I am a former RECCE as you say, I see trouble coming ,I am reporting it to you ,take my report or dismiss it.

I have no doubt there is an element of truth in this, I guess one of the areas where we may differ is what form the 'trouble' may take and how best to handle it.....or maybe we have more in common than either of us realise?

Regards and respect....I'll raise a glass to you tonight.

Freeborn
Not too sure I agree with you that our 'leaders' are afraid of your guns considering the weaponry and resources at their disposal

If this statement was true at all the issue of gun confiscation would actually be a non-issue, wouldn't it?

-Peace-

Freeborn
So the only reason you live in the US is because you can carry a gun?
It has nothing to do with where you were born, how you were raised, family, your education choices, your life choices, relationships you may or may not have, career decisions or countless other cultural stimuli and life experiences that have helped shape you into the person you are today?
All those are irrelevant and the Right To Bear Arms is the only contributory factor? (I can do bold as well,
)

all of those things you listed are irrelevant if they can be taken.

"life" without security is vain at best.

where i live, that security is guaranteed by way of personal arms.

in the UK, that security is...well...promised by a third party you have no control or influence over...

...but to answer your question, no it is not the only contributory factor but it is certainly the most overbearing.

It should scare the BEJEZZUS out of all of Britain to think of a "private" police force. A new slot for some feral contractors no doubt with a long leash
I do have buddies in that field and they are indeed expanding domestically here and in many other countries.(Guess I missed the ad in SOF way back when)


Not to worry ,if it gets too bad I know a few guys who have guns…
I would HAVE to go extract my grandson anyway,so freeing another country is just on the menu

727Sky

That is true however the article correlates restrictive gun laws with an increase in crime and murder rates.

There may be other factors that show the same correlation.