Why do they fight us? Why do they hate us? Is it our fault?

I wanna address, again, the motivations for terrorists in fighting us.

First and foremost, and I think this is the biggest difference between left and right points of view on terrorism, I don't care what their gripes are. We've done nothing to provoke the unrestrained slaughter of civilian innocents. Nothing. And neither has Israel. There is nothing that I can think of that could possibly be done by anyone to justify the slaughter and targetting of innocents.

Especially in the case of Israel, there is a process involved, an outlet by which the Palestinians can achieve peace through non-violent means. We all know how that turned out. Israel offered Arafat 95% of what the Palestinians were asking for in Camp David, and not only did Arafat turn it down, not only did he not even offer a counter-proposal, he walked out of the summit and started the 2nd intifada. To the PA, the peace process is a facade; the true goal is the destruction of Israel and no Jews from river to sea.

Israel is often heavy-handed, but no more heavy-handed--not even close--than the Palestinian terror groups, which included Arafat's own Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, blowing up pizzarias and buses and Passover ceder feasts. There is no moral relativity here. And it should be noted that Israel's heavy-handedness has all but halted the suicide bombers. The Palestinians have a uniformed Israeli army they can target. They target unarmed civilians in Israel proper almost exclusively. The IDF has no such uniformed army. The terrorists are not soldiers. In fact they should convene a conference at Geneva and invent a new classification for terrorists, if they haven't already. Because they're not really soldiers, not really civilians, though they fight amongst the civilian population, often purposefully facilitating the deaths of civilians as a propaganda technique.

I see no reason to take the gripes of such barbarians seriously. There are others in the world who are under similar circumstances--the Tibetans for one, the Lebanese Christians for another, and many others--who do not resort to such tactics. It should be noted as a reminder what the Chinese have been prone to do to dissidents in their government and occupied territories over the past several decades. If the Tibetans rose up against their occupiers they would be crushed cruelly, brutally, and utterly. Israel is more than capable of doing this to the Palestinians, yet amazingly even in the face of astounding Israeli restraint many accuse them of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden do not care that the Arab/Muslim Syrians occupy Lebanon. They do not care about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. They don't care about the treatment of the North Korean civilian population by their Stalinist police state. This is not about justice. This is about religion. Israel is a Jewish state sitting right on one of the holiest lands in Islam. Read the writings and rantings of bin Laden (here and here, for starters). There's a lot of rantings of injustice towards Muslims (they never mention Kosovo, where we fabricated a Muslim genocide at the hands of "Christians" in order to curry Muslim favor), but there's always those slips where they tell us their true motivations. Take bin Laden's letter to America (first link above). Lots of crap about Crusader and Zionist injustice in the world, but two points stick out. First, he claims that Israel was never a Jewish state, that the Jews have no historical claim to it. That's because the same god that gave Israel to the Jews forever is also the same god who promised the whole world to Muhammad:

It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed (he's talking about the Qur'an). Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them. (emphasis mine)

As you can plainly see, Bin Laden, correctly as per Islamic doctrine, states that there was never any such thing as Judaism. Moses was a Muslim, not a Jew. So was Jesus. The scriptures the Jews and Christians revered is nothing more than the Qur'an corrupted. Therefore the existance in-and-of-itself of Israel, a Jewish state, is the real injustice to Muslims. The IDF doesn't have to kill a single Palestinian; the fact that they exist at all is a grievous crime.

Next, Bin Laden tells us his ultimate plan for us all, which shows us that no amount of appeasement, withdrawal or disengagement will be enough to stop him:

What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam...The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language. (emphasis mine)

As you can see, Bin Laden and all truly devout Muslims call for equality of all people in every aspect of life, save one: religion. The fact that we do not worship Allah is not only a crime, but an act of war against Allah. These are not the mere words of a religios fanatic twisting scripture to suit his fancies; his words are totally in line with Islamic scripture, both the Qur'an and the hadith.

It is dangerous and futile to dismiss the Islamic component of terrorism, and focus only on our own actions as possible provocations for their attacks. It is not only Western meddling in Islamic affairs, and unfortunately I cannot prove conclusively that they'd fight us no matter what we did because we are not about to withdraw from the world stage. You cannot filter their remarks and take seriously only the non-religious aspects of their grievances and discard the religious. We are criminals in their eyes first and foremost because we reject Allah and his messenger.

You may not like the way our government conducts itself on the global stage, but do not pretend the terrorists are acting on principle, and do not presume that they are correct in their gripes about only our non-religious crimes. We are infidels, and the Qur'an and the hadith command them to fight us, subdue us, and kill us.

Sun Tzu said: One who knows his enemy and knows himself will not be in danger in a hundred battles.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

Do you mind if I come over to your house and kill your children and rape your wife?

According to you that is nothing. What is the virtual enslavement of half the population? In Israel it is called democracy.

I think you know quite clearly why. You do not live in a vacuum. There are consequences for all actions. You either burn in this life or the next one.

Which do you choose?

They obviously hate us for our freedom and progressive values.

Freedom to disagree, which we're losing.
Freedom to speak, which we're losing.
Freedom to have an abortion, which we're losing.
Freedom to buy pornography, which we're losing.

It must be that seperation of church and state thing that they don't. Oh, yeah. Then it must be all that science and athiesm we have, which, of course, our government doesn't like. So they must be attacking us because of all those gays getting married. Oh, that's not happening anymore either.

Wait, why are they attacking us again? Because, it seems to me that we got on our knees and gave them everything they wanted. I mean freedom wise, we absolutely surrendered and begged for their mercy.

Our fundementalists are as bad as their fundementalists. It seems like they should be rather cozy together.

It all boils down to one thing and one thing only. If that sounds too simplistic.....well, that's how the sand blows.

It all started with Ismael and Issac who had one father but two different mothers. Ismael is the "father" of the Arab race, and Issac is the "father" of the Jewish and some of the Euro-ites races, so to speak. Ismael being the older of the two sons of Abraham was suppose to be granted most all of his fathers belongings, lands, livestock etc.,etc., But somehow Issac ended up with it all and Ismael never got over it. To this day "Issac" and "Ismael" fight over that land. It will never end......

Yep...

Just another thread to make excuses for racism and bigotry.

WTG!

(ps-white christians rock!)

How do you know I'm a white Christian?

Please explain to me what's racist or bigotted about what I posted.

You know what's fcuked about this forum...I call someone delusional or "cuckoo" and I get a red flag. Shallow, simple people who cannot debate a subject intelligently toss the word racist and bigot around--and doesn't have the common decency to back it up--and no one bats and eyelash.

Try not to be so transparent, mods.

Do you mind if I come over to your house and kill your children and rape your wife?

According to you that is nothing. What is the virtual enslavement of half the population? In Israel it is called democracy.

I think you know quite clearly why. You do not live in a vacuum. There are consequences for all actions. You either burn in this life or the next one.

Which do you choose?

The Palestinians are enslaved by their own leadership. That fact is OBVIOUS to anyone not blinded by self-loathing and hatred for anything associated with America. You tell me who's oppressing the Palestinians when Yasser Arafat died with $billions locked away in Swiss accounts...Suha Arafat gets $22 million a year from the PA and lives in comfort in France.

THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE LIVE IN TOILETS.

How dare you blame that on the Israelis, or worse, on America, who's taxpayer money goes to UNRWA which is supposed to provide basic services for the Palestinian people but ends up in the pockets of the PA.

How dare you lend credence to the terrorists' gripes in light of this. If America had its way, the Palestinians would live decent lives. They are robbed of this BY THEIR OWN FREAKING PEOPLE.

This isn't rocket science. If you really cared about what's going on instead of searching out reasons to hate and be whiny, cynical little bitches, this would become crystal clear.

Go ahead and flag me again.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
How do you know I'm a white Christian?

Please explain to me what's racist or bigotted about what I posted.

You know what's fcuked about this forum...I call someone delusional or "cuckoo" and I get a red flag. Shallow, simple people who cannot debate a subject intelligently toss the word racist and bigot around--and doesn't have the common decency to back it up--and no one bats and eyelash.

Try not to be so transparent, mods.

I didn't say you were a bigot, just made a comment about your thread...well all your threads in general...

All you do is talk about your hatred for Muslims...but I don't need to point that out for everyone

Isn't saying that "all I do is talk about how my hatred for Muslims" a roundabout way of calling me a bigot/racist? Find me one post--just one--where I ever said I hate Muslims.

My criticism has been exclusively of Islamic doctrine in comparison to the words, deeds, and motives of the Islamic terrorists. There is a direct correlation, and I'm going to continue to point it out so long as there are people out there who fool themselves into thiking Islam has nothing to do with what Bin Laden does.

And plenty of my posts involve other topics besides Islam. You accuse me of painting with a broad brush but that's exactly what you do.

Now this whole Israel and Palestinians conflict needs more articulation and enquiry; It seems that if we dig deep enough, we can find that Israel has a major hand to play in the instability in the Middle East.

www.cactus48.com...

Public vs private pronouncements on this question.

"In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."



The Deir Yassin Massacre of Palestinians by Jewish soldiers

"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,'...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

Was Deir Yassin the only act of its kind?

"By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."


www.ualberta.ca...

This is a good site that will go through many of the Vetos against resolutions passed on Israel.

These are some.

1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in
air raids.
1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw
from the occupied territories.
1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories.
1976 Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.
1976 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians.

en.wikipedia.org...

Reactions to the plan
Political pressure by proponents of partition was used to get the UN to pass the partition proposal. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. The more extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi (group) (known as the Stern Gang) which had been fighting the British rejected it. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29th (the date of this session) as the most important date in the Israel's acquisition of independence. However Jews did criticise the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state

Both sides also seemed to have rejected the initial partition to begin with.

You can call Palestinians terrorists all you want, but remember, just becuase America deems them as terrorists, that does not make them terrorists. America is funded Israels Military for decades and provided them with top-notch equipment; Palestine is not exactly the most advanced country in the world, nor does it have the military power of Israel --which also holds 200 nukes-- and in a war, "inginuity" brings wonders..

I also remember a time when Arafat's Visa was revoked by the U.S. during a time when crucial peace plans were being negoiated and Arafat was to partake in these in the United States.

The Palestinians are enslaved by their own leadership. That fact is OBVIOUS to anyone not blinded by self-loathing and hatred for anything associated with America. You tell me who's oppressing the Palestinians when Yasser Arafat died with $billions locked away in Swiss accounts...Suha Arafat gets $22 million a year from the PA and lives in comfort in France.

So what; Americans, in majority, blindy hate anything non-Christian; President Bush has countless Millions in his bank account; He's bankrupted an entire country, and invaded a country under false pretexts.

How dare you blame that on the Israelis, or worse, on America, who's taxpayer money goes to UNRWA which is supposed to provide basic services for the Palestinian people but ends up in the pockets of the PA.

American tax-dollars also go to Israel to help fund thier military; how many Americans really care about Israel and would rather have that money spent on social services --which are declining every year and military spending is increasing -- ?

www.washington-report.org...

Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest.

How dare you lend credence to the terrorists' gripes in light of this. If America had its way, the Palestinians would live decent lives. They are robbed of this BY THEIR OWN FREAKING PEOPLE.

Over 36 million people live in poverty in America, thats around 15 million more than the population of Iraq we went to go LIBERATE. Who really needs liberation? Our children at home can barely afford health care, clothes on thier backs, education, etc etc etc...

www.usnewswire.com...

WASHINGTON, Jan. 7 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Most Americans believe
that between 1 and 5 million people live in poverty in the United
States when the actual number is nearly 33 million, according to
results of the national "Poverty Pulse" survey released today by
the Catholic Campaign for Human Development (CCHD).

You seem to be blind to reality and create your own twisted around your hatred for Islam and it's followers.

Deep

So what; Americans, in majority, blindy hate anything non-Christian; President Bush has countless Millions in his bank account; He's bankrupted an entire country, and invaded a country under false pretexts.

Yet if you were to go to Palestine and compare their situation to ours they'd shoot you. Unemployment is over 60% in Palestine. How many millions does Bush have in his bank account? I want a link. Wasn't he a failed businessman? You seem to be doing alright. You've got a computer. Most people in the world don't even have a telephone. WTF do you know about poverty? Not a person in America knows what it's like to truly be poor.

Elitist snob.

We are the most tolerant country in the world, and if you'd like proof of that I give you Holland, formerly known as the epitome of enlightened multicultural tolerance, where one person was killed by a Muslim and they're talking about shutting down the borders to non-Western immigrants and kicking radical Muslim clerics out of the country.

We lost over 3,000 people in one day and the government went crazy trying to convince us true Islam/Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism. Our borders are still open and there are no restrictions on immigration from Muslim countries.

American tax-dollars also go to Israel to help fund thier military; how many Americans really care about Israel and would rather have that money spent on social services --which are declining every year and military spending is increasing -- ?

Do not deflect from the fact that we provide hundreds of millions a year to UNRWA and the PA steals every penny from it. Just because we support Israel doesn't mean we're responsible for the Palestinians' suffering. To say so is just flat-out idiotic. They'd have their own country right now if they really wanted it. The true goal is the elimination of Israel; no Jews from river to sea.

Also, we are not a socialist country, so if social services are in decline that's a good thing. The government needs to be smaller, not bigger. If you're an able-bodied, able-minded individual you do not need social services if you live your life responsibly. That means getting good grades in school, so you can get a scholarship. Or if you don't get a scholarship you go to community college. That means keeping your dick in your pants and your legs closed if you can't afford to have a baby or don't want a baby with the person you're with. (the HORROR!) That means staying away from the crackpipe so my tax dollars don't go to pay for your multiple rehabs and hospital stays when you OD. That means planning for your own retirement and not depending on a government bureaucracy to provide it for you. Social security is the epitome of the disasters that are inevitable in social programs. If we rely on government to provide for us they will steal the money we pay into it and everyone will get screwed.

Over 36 million people live in poverty in America, thats around 15 million more than the population of Iraq we went to go LIBERATE. Who really needs liberation? Our children at home can barely afford health care, clothes on thier backs, education, etc etc etc...

What does this have to do with the fact that the Palestinian Authority robs the Palestinian people (and the American taxpayer) blind and people like you blame Israel and America? My children have health care and clothes on their backs, and, I know it's hard to believe, but I'm not even rich! Go figure.

You seem to be blind to reality and create your own twisted around your hatred for Islam and it's followers.

Blah blah f'ing blah. You're so blinded by your hatred of your own freaking country that you ignore the obvious facts about what's going on because they inconveniently contradict with your pre-concieved fabricated notions of American empire and imperialism and racism and, again, blah blah f'ing blah. Bin Laden says he has a religious mandate to kill us, I provide the Islamic scripture that proves he has a right to say so, and you call me a hater.

Truth=hate speech.

Whatever.

Yet if you were to go to Palestine and compare their situation to ours they'd shoot you. Unemployment is over 60% in Palestine. How many millions does Bush have in his bank account? I want a link. Wasn't he a failed businessman? You seem to be doing alright. You've got a computer. Most people in the world don't even have a telephone. WTF do you know about poverty? Not a person in America knows what it's like to truly be poor.

You want a link? Well, I want links to all your spurious claims, such as this: " THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE LIVE IN TOILETS. "President Bush is a millionare, and remember where daddy works? I know enough about poverty, I grew up around it in my little village in India -- thank you very much. 36 million people in America actually know what it's like to live in poverty, or did you forget that they lived in poverty already?

Elitist snob.

We are the most tolerant country in the world, and if you'd like proof of that I give you Holland, formerly known as the epitome of enlightened multicultural tolerance, where one person was killed by a Muslim and they're talking about shutting down the borders to non-Western immigrants and kicking radical Muslim clerics out of the country.

No reason to call me an "Elitist Snob", that is, of course, you can provide me with a link to prove it.

Now, this whole Holland situation, tell me, is that really what will happen? I'am quite sure that it's an independent party, who also would like to kick out anyone non-white, that insinuated this whole fiasco, and they have been banned...

That just further shows the ignorance of those who believe that such is the correct retribution.

America is also a country that would rather pay more mind to it's Christian populace than those non-Christian, or did we forget this aswell?

We lost over 3,000 people in one day and the government went crazy trying to convince us true Islam/Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism. Our borders are still open and there are no restrictions on immigration from Muslim countries.

Well, it's the truth. Islam has noting to do with Terrorism. I don't see a billion terrorists in this world, do you ? I mean, Israel, using your logic, is also a country full of terrorists, beucuase the Pentetuach is filled with just as much violence as the QU'RAN; yet only a handfull of of Israelies speak for the entire population. I don't see any violence from the Muslims community in America, do you ?

Do not deflect from the fact that we provide hundreds of millions a year to UNRWA and the PA steals every penny from it. Just because we support Israel doesn't mean we're responsible for the Palestinians' suffering. To say so is just flat-out idiotic. They'd have their own country right now if they really wanted it. The true goal is the elimination of Israel; no Jews from river to sea.

Um, I want a link to these postulations.

Also, we are not a socialist country, so if social services are in decline that's a good thing. The government needs to be smaller, not bigger

Um, actualy, America is a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST country -- or so my Prof in Political Sciences told us on lecture; Social services in America are lauded every election and are always sought ameliorate, not the opposite. So as long as America keeps promising it's subjects more and more social services, it better damn well keep those promises.

What does this have to do with the fact that the Palestinian Authority robs the Palestinian people (and the American taxpayer) blind and people like you blame Israel and America? My children have health care and clothes on their backs, and, I know it's hard to believe, but I'm not even rich! Go figure.

I want proof that the Palestinian Authority robs it's people. Hamas sure does a good job of keeping thier people healthy.

i-cias.com...

Hamas is also involved in a wide range of social programs for poor Palestinians, covering welfare schemes and education, vocational training, health care and also with providing jobs to unemployed. Their core centre of activities is the Gaza Strip, and here Hamas offers a better welfare system than the Palestinian authorities. Many observers claim that this type of activity is the real core of Hamas' activities, more than the political/violent one.

www.time.com...

But one of the keys to Hamas's popularity is its large-scale welfare arm. Hamas provides educational, medical and other desperately needed welfare services in impoverished West Bank and Gaza towns and refugee camps, creating a marked contrast with the image of corruption and cronyism most Palestinians have of Arafat's administration. The welfare arm also cares for the families of suicide bombers and others who have died fighting the Israelis, making suicide bombing a macabre form of life insurance in impoverished Palestinian communities. The social services performed by Hamas also create a pretext for the massive funding the organization receives from Muslim charities throughout the Persian Gulf and beyond.

Blah blah f'ing blah. You're so blinded by your hatred of your own freaking country that you ignore the obvious facts about what's going on because they inconveniently contradict with your pre-concieved fabricated notions of American empire and imperialism and racism and, again, blah blah f'ing blah. Bin Laden says he has a religious mandate to kill us, I provide the Islamic scripture that proves he has a right to say so, and you call me a hater.

My own country?

...

Well, to give you a hint, I live in a crescent full of Muslims; one of them has a smoking hot daughter

I think America is a great country, it's just percieved by the negative it tends to do; the negative actions carried about by extremists in that country.

Truth=hate speech.

I don't know about that. I learned in my philosophy class that truth is relative.

Deep

There are only three known reasons why someone will cause you harm; they are indifferent and think only of themselves, they are a psychopath (which is similar to indifference but with intention), and finally you are indifferent and did something that they want revenge upon you.

The final reason is why terrorists attack. The aren't killing because they are psychopaths or because the are being careless, they are doing it because we did something to them.

If you want a fight to keep going, the best thing to do is seek revenge. This will never end until the last person alive who thinks we did something to them is dead.

Bringing a war to the terrorists neighborhood will invoke them more and bring about more hostility, which will end up bringing about another domestic terrorist incident.

The so-called terrorist agenda has nothing to do with hating our freedoms. Anyone can be free if they want to.

Originally posted by Ibn Iblis
As you can see, Bin Laden and all truly devout Muslims call for equality of all people in every aspect of life, save one: religion. The fact that we do not worship Allah is not only a crime, but an act of war against Allah. These are not the mere words of a religios fanatic twisting scripture to suit his fancies; his words are totally in line with Islamic scripture, both the Qur'an and the hadith.

But what if the Muslims are right?

Why are Americans so outraged at what happens in IRAQ NOW?
What did you think an occupation of Iraq would be like?

The current outrage at the events in Iraq denotes either ignorance or weakness.

Beheading alien civilians in an area of conflict is not new. Shooting unarmed enemy combatants has been an accepted part of warfare for thousands of years. So why the sudden outrage?

The brutal methods used by Iraqi insurgents is not new. The exact same methods have been used in the very same circumstances. Look back to the 18th-19th century. Look at Napoleon's conquest, and occupation, of Egypt and the middle-east.

The brutal methods used by the Occupying forces are not new. For examples you can look at various occupations and wars, including Napoleon in Egypt.

The tone of moral superiority by both Arabs and the Occupying forces (usually Western nations) is also not new.

Christ where do I begin?

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
You want a link? Well, I want links to all your spurious claims, such as this: " THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE LIVE IN TOILETS. "President Bush is a millionare, and remember where daddy works? I know enough about poverty, I grew up around it in my little village in India -- thank you very much. 36 million people in America actually know what it's like to live in poverty, or did you forget that they lived in poverty already?

Well what exactly did you mean when you said the Palestinian people live in "virtual slavery"? Well, whatever. You want links you got links.

Palestinian Ministry of Foreign Affairs

In its report, "Tw enty-Seven Months - Intifada, Closures and Palestinian Economic Crisis," the World Bank describes Palestinian unemployment as being at 37% at the end of 2002. The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy (MIFTAH), which is a non-governmental non-partisan Jerusalem-based institution dedicated to fostering democracy and good governance within the Palestinian society, estimates Palestinian unemployment as being at 39.8%. The Health Development Information and Policy Institute (HDIP), estimates that unemployment has reached 48% in the West Bank and 67% in Gaza.

Unemployment between 39.8% and 67%. I doubt they're living in luxury. But I don't mind spending the extra time making you look stupid, as if I need to prove the Palestinians live in miserable conditions.

Al-Bushra

In Dheisheh over an area of a square kilometer are a little less than 650 dwellings on two to three levels, all in miserable conditions. Overcrowded, they have no �privacy�. The essential services are precarious, starting with hygienic ones, the electricity is frequently cut and in summer time the water supply is very scarce. There is no productive activity, unemployment hits 60% of men capable of work, the rest are casual workers in Israel if they get permission they can reach the check point of Tantur.

Duh.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
No reason to call me an "Elitist Snob", that is, of course, you can provide me with a link to prove it.

Now, this whole Holland situation, tell me, is that really what will happen? I'am quite sure that it's an independent party, who also would like to kick out anyone non-white, that insinuated this whole fiasco, and they have been banned...

That just further shows the ignorance of those who believe that such is the correct retribution.

America is also a country that would rather pay more mind to it's Christian populace than those non-Christian, or did we forget this aswell?

You are incredibly ignorant. Being that you're not an American (my bad), perhaps you could not presume to know a damn thing about our politics? Obviously you're mistaken. Evangelical Christians did not vote in any greater numbers than they did in 2000. and of course, you have your link:

San Francisco Chronical

Turnout among evangelical Christians rose by about the same amount as did overall turnout. True, evangelicals broke slightly more for Bush in 2004 than in 2000, but so did African Americans, Latinos, Jews, senior citizens, northeasterners, people who never go to church and women -- especially women, who gave Bush 5 percent more of their vote in 2004 than in 2000. At a post-election conference held at Stanford University, Gary Langer, director of polling for ABC, said flatly that the election could be explained in a single phrase -- "Sept. 11" -- which largely reflected the security concerns of women.

The party in Holland has not been banned. You should know better to make such nefarious claims without a link, since you demand the same of me. Here you go:

www.google.com...

The anti-immigrant sentiment in Holland is quite strong.

NY Times

"We cannot hand over our country.... Words such as diversity, respect and dialogue fade against the dark context of this ritual assassination."

Ritual assassination. The cause has been taken up not by extreme independents but by popular lawmakers:

Yahoo

One of the most popular politicians in the Netherlands said Friday the country's democracy is under threat and called for a five-year halt to non-Western immigration in the wake of the killing of a Dutch filmmaker by a suspected Muslim radical.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Well, it's the truth. Islam has noting to do with Terrorism. I don't see a billion terrorists in this world, do you ? I mean, Israel, using your logic, is also a country full of terrorists, beucuase the Pentetuach is filled with just as much violence as the QU'RAN; yet only a handfull of of Israelies speak for the entire population. I don't see any violence from the Muslims community in America, do you ?

People like you would be the death of us all. Fortunately, in the face of overwhelming incontrovertable evidence, not the least of which is the actions of ISLAMIC terrorists themselves, but including but not limited to the hadith, the Qur'an, and the sira, as well as the 1350-year history of Islam, bloody and violent, more and more people are opening their eyes to the truth. There will always be terrorism so long as Islam exists. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all the terrorist we're at war with are Muslims. That's not a coincidence.

Syrian Professor: 'We Need People Who are Capable of Fearlessly Acknowledging that Terrorism Nests within Us as Muslims and that We Must Exorcise It'

How much more proof must I provide?

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Um, I want a link to these postulations.

You're a glutton for punishment.

THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.' (Article 6)

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him. (Article 7)

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Arafat's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade

The Al-Shaid Yasser Arafat Brigades (or Brigades of Martyr Yasser Arafat), formerly known as the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, are one of the militias of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's al-Fatah faction. They have been one of the driving forces behind the al-Aqsa Intifada, emerging shortly afterwards. Following Yasser Arafat's death on November 11, 2004, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades announced it was renaming itself to Brigades of Martyr Yasser Arafat.

While the group initially vowed to target only Israeli soldiers and settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and carried out guerrilla warfare against the Israeli military, in early 2002 it began a series of attacks against civilians in Israeli cities. Attacks targeting civilians consitute war crimes. In March 2002, after a deadly al-Aqsa Brigades suicide bombing in Jerusalem, the US State Department added the group to the list of foreign terrorist organizations.

Israel published documents allegedly found in Arafat's compound, claiming that they prove Arafat knowingly sponsored Al-Aqsa attacks; US president George W. Bush used these documents to justify calling for the replacement of Arafat.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Um, actualy, America is a DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST country -- or so my Prof in Political Sciences told us on lecture; Social services in America are lauded every election and are always sought ameliorate, not the opposite. So as long as America keeps promising it's subjects more and more social services, it better damn well keep those promises.

Your professor would be wrong. We are a free market capitalist society. George Washington said Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible master. 60 years of the New Deal and Great Society has fooled the American people into thinking government is the answer to our problems. They expect our politicians to deliver that which is undeliverable in a free-market state. Thus they promise them the moon and stars yet deliver little, and I for one thank God for that. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, I'm sure you'll agree, so the last thing we as Americans should want is for our government to have more control over our own lives and destinies.

No way.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
I want proof that the Palestinian Authority robs it's people. Hamas sure does a good job of keeping thier people healthy.

Hamas does not recieve American tax-payer dollars. They get their money from the Saudis, Syrians, Egyptians, Iranians, and, formerly, Saddam Hussein. (You're welcome)

What more proof do you need that the PA robs its people? As I've proven (with links), the Palestinian people live in, yes, toilets. They live in a bunch of #holes. Where else does the PA get the money to pay Suha Arafat $22 million a year (LINK) Why does she get to live in luxury in France while her "people" suffer?

Where else did the $4.2B-6.5B (LINK) stored away in secret Swiss bank accounts come from, if not from the money originally designated for the Palestinian people? You're either incredibly stupid or deliberately trying to insult my intelligence. The Palestinian Authority is living large while the Palestinian people suffer. And dolts like you only increase their suffering by absolving the PA of blame and tightening their grip on power by blaming America and Israel.

The truth is never relative. It is the truth. There may be the truth as we want some to see it, but the ultimate truth is never relative. Some people put forth lies and pass them off as truth, and then some people expose those lies, and yet some people are so used to hearing the lies that they reject the truth, even when it stares them in the face. You are obviously hopeless.

For your sake I pray the jihad does not reach you and yours, though the irony of it would almost be pleasing.

[edit on 22-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

[edit on 22-11-2004 by Ibn Iblis]

Well what exactly did you mean when you said the Palestinian people live in "virtual slavery"? Well, whatever. You want links you got links.

Did you forget when you stated the following: THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE LIVE IN TOILETS?

Unemployment between 39.8% and 67%. I doubt they're living in luxury. But I don't mind spending the extra time making you look stupid, as if I need to prove the Palestinians live in miserable conditions.

I never stated otherwise; what I did state was your puesdo-claims that they were being milked of foriegn aid.

Now you gave me links to conditions in the refugee camps...well...DUH! Tis a refugee camp, not Beverly hills !

You also seemed to have skipped over some important information from that website regarding why conditions were so deliterious:

The drama of the refugees.

The problem of Palestinian refugees is the consequence of two wars, the Arab- Israeli war of 1948 (An-Naqba) and the war of 1967 (An-Naqsa) between these 531 Arabic villages, according to the Palestinian National Authority records, were destroyed or occupied by Jews.
After the 1948 war the Commission on Conciliation of ONU believed that there were 726,000 refugees outside and 32,000 inside the armistice line. The Resolution 194 (December 1948) of the United Nations recognised for the refugees the right to return to their houses and to receive compensation. With the Six Day War in 1967 another 300,000 Palestinians ran away from the West Bank and Gaza. According to the records of UNRWA (June 1999) the total number of refugees today is 3,625,592; from this number 569,741 in the West Bank (19 camps), 798,444 in the Gaza Strip (8 camps), 1,512,742 in Jordan (13 camps of which 10 are �official�), 374,521 in Syria (10 camps), 370,144 in Lebanon (12 camps). The total number of camps, always according to the records of UNRWA, is 59. The refugees living in camps is (32.6%) and 2,445,432 outside. UNRWA has 650 schools, 8 centres of training, 12 surgeries. The solution of the refugees� problem is one of the most controversial themes in the peace process of the Middle East.

Now many of these resolutions passed by the UN were also vetoed by the U.S. whose been very "fervid" in bringing "Peace to the middle east".

You are incredibly ignorant. Being that you're not an American (my bad), perhaps you could not presume to know a damn thing about our politics? Obviously you're mistaken. Evangelical Christians did not vote in any greater numbers than they did in 2000. and of course, you have your link:

Why can't I pressume to know a damn thing about our politics, is it impeding the freedom and liberties you have in America ? I'am sorry for being born in a country that lauds the highest standards of education, esp when it comes to non-american political and social affairs. I'am not sure if American schools practice xenophilia in any manner, can you fill me in please?

Now, who said anything about Evangelical Christians? I speak of the entire Christian congregation who seemed to have voted Bush in for his "MORALS AND VALUES".

Here are some links that might fill you in on the secular governments efforts to spread pluralism.

www.atimes.com...
www.cc.org...

Now your link states that, statisticly, Evangelical Christians did not turn the tides in the election, but that does not stray away from the Bush administrations ability to divide the country into Christain and non-Christians..

www.nytimes.com...

Arthur Finkelstein, a Republican consultant known for hard-edged campaigns that helped conservatives in the United States and Israel, has said in an interview published in Israel that President Bush's campaign strategy to court evangelical Christians had divided the country as never before, to the possible detriment of the Republican Party.

"From now on, anyone who belongs to the Republican Party will automatically find himself in the same group as the opponents of abortion, and anyone who supports abortion will automatically be labeled a Democrat," Mr. Finkelstein told Maariv, a daily, in an interview published on Friday. "The political center has disappeared, and the Republican Party has become the party of the Christian right more so than in any other period in modern history."

People like you would be the death of us all. Fortunately, in the face of overwhelming incontrovertable evidence, not the least of which is the actions of ISLAMIC terrorists themselves, but including but not limited to the hadith, the Qur'an, and the sira, as well as the 1350-year history of Islam, bloody and violent, more and more people are opening their eyes to the truth. There will always be terrorism so long as Islam exists. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all the terrorist we're at war with are Muslims. That's not a coincidence.

People like me would be the death of you lot? How so, I would like a discourse as to my ignoranct wars in facing the onslaught of terrorism. Actually, we are not at war with terrorists or Muslims; We're not in a war at all, Iraq is not a war, All-Queda is not a war. You seemed to have been saturated by too much propaganda from the neo-cons and whatnot. You're ability to coincide terrorism with religious ideology is ignorant; like many members have told you time and time again, if terrorism, and in this case Islamic, is fueled by religious motif, and the teachings of "false" prophets, and his "violent" escapades on non-beleivers, what motive did the Crusaders have? What motive did the Brahmans have in India, and the Hinduteva now? What about the Sikh terrorists who commited the greatest act of terrorism against Canada; All these groups have had either agressive or passive scriptures to justify thier deeds.

Your professor would be wrong. We are a free market capitalist society. George Washington said Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible master. 60 years of the New Deal and Great Society has fooled the American people into thinking government is the answer to our problems. They expect our politicians to deliver that which is undeliverable in a free-market state. Thus they promise them the moon and stars yet deliver little, and I for one thank God for that. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, I'm sure you'll agree, so the last thing we as Americans should want is for our government to have more control over our own lives and destinies.

No way.

The government of George Washington is not the Government of today. I actually respect the authority of my Prof over yours; his credentials are quite amazing.

www.newsworld.cbc.ca...

Education: Univ of Wyoming - BA in Economics. Univ of Wisconsin - Masters in Economics. Univ of Southampton - Masters in Philosophy. Univ of Calgary - PhD in Political1971-74 - Exec Secretary of the Canadian Railway Labour Assoc. Science.

I want you to tell me WHY America is not a Democratic Socialist country please.

You're either incredibly stupid or deliberately trying to insult my intelligence. The Palestinian Authority is living large while the Palestinian people suffer. And dolts like you only increase their suffering by absolving the PA of blame and tightening their grip on power by blaming America and Israel.

Yes, this dolt also realizes that in every country the "RICH" seemed to have more power than the "POOR". America is not exempt from this. I really don't see your point. 5 percent of America controls the rest, the rest who are suffering, the 34 million who are in poverty. We usualy blame America for this, and Israel for taking America tax dollars. Oligarchal rule has always been around.

The truth is never relative. It is the truth. There may be the truth as we want some to see it, but the ultimate truth is never relative. Some people put forth lies and pass them off as truth, and then some people expose those lies, and yet some people are so used to hearing the lies that they reject the truth, even when it stares them in the face. You are obviously hopeless.

For your sake I pray the jihad does not reach you and yours, though the irony of it would almost be pleasing

The truth? What exactly is the "ultimate" truth? The truth must be universaly accepted en masse to those that the Truth is being preached to.

www.scu.edu...

Remember, I'am surrounded my Muslims, all of whom do not agree with the Bush administrations war on terror or Israels war against Palestine. I have Jihad all around me ! They're pretty nice too, but wait, maybe they're just waiting for the day to come when they will slash my throat in the middle of the night becuase Allah told them to kill non-believers. I may want to keep my back watched, and carry a gun around. You can't trust those Muslims, not when the Qu'ran and the Hadith tells them not to trust us. You know what, Hamza looked at my oddly today while playing street hockey in my crescent, he may have been overcome with his desire to kill non-believers; good think I was wearding a neck gaurd while playing goalie, that bastard may have tried to decapitate my head with a hockey stick when I was not looking.

Thank you for your warning Ibn, now I will always remember that Muslims are out to kill me, and have delcared an all out Jihad against non-believers.

Um, Hamza just called, he's wondering if he wants me to come over to smoke some sheesha and play Madden. IBN, should I trust him !!!!!!

What to do, what to do !!!

Deep

PS. Sorry for my superfical replies, I'am also reading a book for class.