Conservative Ideas cannot sustain a Poor majority.

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed


Get a education and stop complaining because others are willing to do what u won't do.

Whether the government is left or right the majority of their decisions are made for their own benefit and not the countries. Just one question to ask (if anybody could answer it) how many in the important positions of power have come from poor backgrounds and made it to power themselves without being picked and moulded by other people in power? I would hazard a guess no one.

crayzeed
Whether the government is left or right the majority of their decisions are made for their own benefit and not the countries. Just one question to ask (if anybody could answer it) how many in the important positions of power have come from poor backgrounds and made it to power themselves without being picked and moulded by other people in power? I would hazard a guess no one.

www.forbes.com...

Yup, it's possible to move up the ladder even when you start with nothing.

reply to post by crayzeed


Watch who the people in power attack the most viciously and you'll have a rough idea who's trying to break into the club without having been groomed properly first.

reply to post by Xeven


I sort of understand what you are saying, but the reverse is also true. Even more so.

If "progressive" philosophies mean govt support of the poor, with a poor economy and negative or nil growth in the economy in terms of real, quality jobs then at what point does public debt destroy the social and economic structure? You have to pay the piper sooner or later.

If "progressive" philosophies mean that wages are artificially inflated, then the result will be massive inflation (the groundwork has already been laid by the massive increase in the "printing" of money) resulting in people making $15/hr at McDonalds and STILL not able to support a family....have news for you: people will never be able to support a family working at fast food establishments. Being a retail entry level employee (such as at Wally World or Target) will not result in the ability to support a family beyond basic needs either.

I will be the first to agree that CEO make too much and the bottom levels do not make enough, but fast food jobs are never jobs that should be considered careers, unless you are planning to move up into management positions.

Conservative philosophies basically revolve around the ideal that those with talent, experience, innovation and or drive should make more than those on the opposite end of the spectrum. Reward talent, experience, innovation and drive...do not reward the opposite end of the spectrum.

The worst thing the US govt ever did was to declare war on poverty. They created a system that fosters poverty and fixes in place many or most of those who should benefit by a war on poverty. It isnt the actual war that creates this, it was the incentives provided by the methodology enacted.

The proper way (IMO) to wage war on poverty is to provide and foster jobs, education, training and incentives to succeed. Not to pay people to sit on their yahoos and collect food stamps.
If I were to tell you that I would pay you $1000 a month to stay home and goof off, or you could come and work 40-50 hrs a week for 1250 and (AND) have an opportunity to move up in the organization and make more money, how many people, do you suppose, would opt for the easy $1000? There are incentives to work, but there is also an incentive to not work.

Structure incentives to support productive people...fairly simple concept.

It is my thought that unemployment, section 8 housing, food stamps etc should be used as a temporary aid to help people get back on their feet again (and many do...many do not) and not as a permanent way to avoid work. I say this from my experience working in a section 8 property and after interviewing the legal residents (those on the leases) coming to the conclusion that most of the residents there had no desire, no drive to attempt to improve their lot in life. When someone has been living in the same section 8 apartment for over 3 years and has not applied for a single job, has not made any attempts to avail themselves of education or job training then the result and intent is rather clear. There were a few notable exceptions...people who were trying hard to get decent jobs, people who were taking advantage of govt programs to improve their education and job training, but by far they were in the minority.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that liberal approaches (just look at the results, for crying out loud) to solving poverty just do not work at all....

Unfortunately, also, there are no true conservatives in our federal govt either. There are social conservatives who are economic liberals (otherwise, why would the size of govt still increase when the Repubs owned congress and the presidency?) and there are a few economic conservatives who may be slightly conservative socially but even they keep their wetted finger in the wind to see which way it blows....they too just want to be reelected. Damn doing what is good for the country.

Our federal govt does not have to be the massive, bloated, ineffective, wasteful thing it is. I would dare say the fed govt could be reduced to 10% or 20% the size it is now and still provide services to those in need. Part of the problem is accountability...we do not need massive red tape and oversight to prevent the govt from buying $10000 hammers. We just need to toss those in jail who are doing illegal things in govt for a long time. Toss those in the govt who approved the overpriced hammers as well as those in the private sector responsible for selling them. Name any function of our govt and there are probably 10 different committees, departments and or groups of people with massively overlapping responsibilities (at least).

If liberalism is so successful then you surely will be able to name a successful liberal program that has been implemented in the last 20 years. Do not name Obamacare...That has yet to be implemented and what we have seen so far is a huge clusterfunk.

reply to post by beezzer


Right beezer, i think again we finding ourselves agreeing under a different context.

We both see the need for people to be strengthened as individuals and take on a level of responsability for themselves(and community).

I also think we both see it as an issue of culture whereas in the modern minds of young individuals we have a very egotistical and self righteous paradigm that comes with a sense of self entitlement and lack of respect and a sense of morality towards our fellow human being.

This in my eyes is also an extension of our schools systems and of the corporate culture.

I hate to break it to some people, but 'conservative' ideas are not making the majority 'poor'.

That would be their opposites.

You know We need to:

Ban Guns-millions of jobs, and billions of wealth creation.

Teach them evil corporations,banks a lesson that is the root cause of outsourcing in this country.

You know a job the best 'welfare' program the world has ever seen.

So lets take a look at the track record of conservative opposites.

More people out of work,working part time, and on government assistance than all of this nations entire history.

After the decades of social engineering programs people are not better off.

That are stagnate.

No better off today than they were yesterday, and no better off tomorrow.

People have the ability to adapt to change.

Hell that is responsible for evolution.

Hell that is how we 'humans' became 'top of the food' chain, but from where I am sitting. Taking a good look around.

For the life of me I can't see how.

Expecting other people to pay for your existence is the CAUSE of the 'poor majority'.

The thread deserves some bill whittle.



Damn right shameful that some Americans think they are 'poor'.

That so called 'poor' Americans don't know what real poor is.

That is places like Africa, and elsewhere in the world.

reply to post by neo96


It drives me crazy when people compare us to the worst place in the world and say, "how dare you, you should be like them!".

Its very anti American. How about we set standards for ourselves in the US and any shortcomings of those standards come under high scrutiny untill we figure out why we are not achieving those standards rather then this stawman argument thats a play on emotions rather then addressing the root causalities of what dynamic is actually happening.

What does Africa have to look forward too if the strongest, wealthiest, most free nation in the world actually has non of the three things i just list?

We should be a bastion of freedom and economic growth and incentive for the rest of the world to want to adopt our model for a free market, individual liberty, and our policies for government.

Sorry neo96 but your wrong.

reply to post by onequestion


Wrong ?

WRONG ?

Hardly

In 2010 alone, government at all levels oversaw a transfer of over $2.2 trillion in money, goods and services. The burden of these entitlements came to slightly more than $7,200 for every person in America. Scaled against a notional family of four, the average entitlements burden for that year alone approached $29,000.

online.wsj.com...

Current federal spending alone on the 'poor majority' is over $2.2 trillion dollars.

Recycled wealth that doesn't create jobs, and new wealth, or long term wealth.

Then there is all the promises to pay for all those materialistic wants.

That comes up to the tune of over $127 trillion dollars.

www.usdebtclock.org...

We should be a bastion of freedom and economic growth and incentive for the rest of the world to want to adopt our model for a free market, individual liberty, and our policies for government

We are not even close to being free. When someone else is entitled to the money they earn.

Economic growth would not be killing business. Which is a daily occurance in this country.

What incentives are there like forcing people to pay more, and more income to people who show up and fill out an application.

Instead of the people who is paying employees: Half of the Social Security,and medicare benefits, the employees unemployment insurance,, and still paying for everything it takes to keep their doors open.

Wrong ?

Not effing hardly.

Sounds like some people have no idea what a 'free' market is.

Doesn't mean things, and someone elses money is theirs.

reply to post by neo96

Current federal spending alone on the 'poor majority' is over $2.2 trillion dollars.

Agreed.

Recycled wealth that doesn't create jobs, and new wealth, or long term wealth.

Agreed.

We are not even close to being free.

Right.

Damn right shameful that some Americans think they are 'poor'.

That so called 'poor' Americans don't know what real poor is.

That is places like Africa, and elsewhere in the world.

Disagree. Now is where you insert the reply in my last response.

And in order for them to cut entitlements and create jobs the government needs to allow for the free market. Oh stop all wars immediately.

reply to post by Hoosierdaddy71

I would say all of them have been molded by other people in power as they were climbing. In reference to your reply to crazyweed.

xuenchen

Xeven
Conservative Ideas cannot sustain a poor majority. Until we figure out how to make sure everyone doing 8 hours a day can have a decent life... conservatism is gone. GOP may as well get ready to lose is all. Even if some of your ideas are good.

"Conservative Ideas cannot sustain a poor majority"

Tricky statement. I don't think anybody's ideas can sustain a poor majority.

But maybe Conservative Ideas are not the problem?

If they *Are* the problem, can we see a list >>>>

But first, define a "poor majority".

Conservative Ideas are that everyone gets to keep the majority of what they earn through low taxes. Then the workers can afford to send their children to good state schools or private schools, the best universities and work for the best companies or even set up their own.

Your Marxist government would have the schools, universities and corporations owned by the state. But the principle would still be the same - "From each according to their means, to each according to their needs". Those with a particular aptitude for a specific skill will be encouraged to take further training. They'd find something to do for everyone.

Add a few million uneducated poor who feel they are entitled to the same quality of life to everyone else without having any skills to offer in return, and both systems fall apart. All the money required for future investment is now diverted to just maintaining the peace and controlling crime.

onequestion
reply to post by neo96

 

Disagree. Now is where you insert the reply in my last response.

And in order for them to cut entitlements and create jobs the government needs to allow for the free market. Oh stop all wars immediately.

edit on 20141America/Chicagoq000000America/Chicago4731502014 by onequestion because: (no reason given)

It appears that you disagree with with the comparison of the poor in America to the poor in other countries.

Having traveled abroad I can wholeheartedly say that there is no comparison. The poor in the 3rd world would kill to be poor in the USA.

In order to properly disagree you have to provide some kind of objective definition of poor that would include 3rd world poor as well as American poor, otherwise it is just your subjective opinion.

I lived in Costa Rica during the 60s and they (Costa Ricans) believed very strongly that everyone in the US was rich. Paved roads, possession of automobiles, the fact that no one died of starvation etc etc classified us as rich to them. Who's definition of poor is accurate and true?

I understand that in the US we judge poor subjectively (and probably should) by direct comparison of the lower income vs middle income vs upper income type divisions. Under this definition our poor is poor. To the eyes of the 3rd world, our poor are rather well off. To point that out is neither disingenuous nor is it un-American as long as the context is given, both perceptions are true.

Care to discuss how some of the poor in the US are poor by choice? Some are poor because, frankly, they had absolutely horrid parents who neither provided a good role model for their children nor did they bother with making sure their children had appropriate education. If we want to conduct a war on poverty we need to start with the culture that promotes and extends poverty from generation to generation. Simultaneously we need to attack the anti business culture that is driving many good jobs overseas by way of effed up policies, taxation and regulation.

reply to post by Xeven


There is a fundamental flaw in your logic.... SINCE WHEN is any party or our government for that matter SUPPOSED to SUPPORT ANYONE....

The whole basis of conservatism is personal responsibility and individual liberty. All we have to do is eliminate the whole IDEA that anyone is supposed to be supported by anyone and that create an environment that allows anyone to succeed on their own merit and that should be enough.

You want to keep that mcdonald's job, go ahead, you want to start a restaurant that successfully competes with mcdonald's, then come to the conservative side and you might have a chance.

Jaden

Usually something in the middle between conservative and liberal is the best but Bush blew it for conservatives.

Xtrozero

Advantage

There is much to be retooled before we go off blaming ONE party, when BOTH are screwing everyone as hard as they can. THEY are the government that is killing jobs, offshoring work, taxing us, using tax money for BS, screwing up needed social programs, destroying education, etc etc. I guess being blatantly biased makes some sleep better at night by identifying the boogey man, but one day theyll wake up and realize what we have allowed our ravenous behemoth govt to become in itself is the real boogey man. Starve the beast and promote American innovation, business, and ingenuity... among a million other things we could do besides blaming a donkey or an elephant.

Lets start with a Government that lets millions of low skill jobs go over seas and allows million of low skill workers into our country illegally.

Add in 60% of our young go to college where Hacks pretend to teach, the lazy pretend to learn and employers pretend to need them.

Top it off that unless you have a government job you are screwed....

They didn't just "let millions of low skill jobs go over seas" by accident, they signed an agreement called the "Lima Declaration of 1975" and allow millions of low skill jobs go over seas". Perhaps they didn't understand that those 30% would undercut the remaining 70%.

Right now, the president is working very hard to make the paradigm that all hard work is equivalent. The problem is that it's a false premise. Not all hard work is equivalent.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for someone who busts their butt working hard 40 or more hours a week trying to do the right thing, no matter what they're working at, but someone busting their butt flipping burgers or working the retail sales floor does not have equivalent work to someone who busts their butt in a level three or four microbiological containment laboratory or an operating theatre or as an auto mechanic or in construction as a carpenter or electrician or as someone who helps build fiberglass surf boards even ... they aren't even as skilled the head chef in a an Applebee's let alone a head chef in a 5-star restaurant for that matter for all that the all three cook.

While all these people may work very, very hard and diligently at what they do, the difference here comes in from the skill sets and the initiative that each individual took to better himself in learning those various skill sets. Sure, some of those levels of skill took a certain amount of innate talent, too. Not everyone can be a 5-star chef or a top surgeon, but most could make it through their apprenticeship in a trade.

The person who works very hard at simply flipping burgers will still be recognized for his or her hard work and diligence, but they shouldn't ever feel entitled to have that recognition earn them more than a very low amount. It just isn't a skill set that will ever command much no matter how good they get at it and no matter how valuable an employee they are. They need to step up and improve themselves in order to do that. And that's part of the hard work most people are thinking of when they talk about the concept.

reply to post by xavi1000


I don't think in the middle works best. Bush is a moderate and look at how many bad deals he did with the democrats. Obama is a hard left and he can't even get any deals done properly because he is too far off.

The middle right will do best because that is where limited government sits. That way we can free the red tapes and get the economy going and small business flowing again.

It's the left ideology that is holding the country back. The government is too darn big and the regulations are selectively enforced by the mega corporations occupying the regulation depts. which is holding back small business from advancing.

of course the catch 22 to your line of thinking is that liberal ideas CREATE a poor majority.... because what's currently seen as liberalism is nothing more than a pretty naked powergrab by people who I hope to GOD aren't dumb enough to really believe the thigns they say they believe on tv! Because it would really scare and sadden me if people that STUPID manage to survive childhood in high enough numbers to get elected that much.

So.... go ahead and think that the country is going to stick it's manhood in a meat grinder again and elect more dems after the utter train wreck they've created since 08.... Oh and HINT: compromise isn't the other side completely giving in to your EVERY demand!

Me thinks thou dost protest too much! I see more and more threads like this the harder the cognitive dissonance is screaming in the obamanation's brainpans...


Oh and just in case you think i'm a militant republican and this is just some partisan BS.... I'm really not.... Yeah I do vote republican here and there but mostly out of sheer desperation to avoid voting for the utter lunacy that has become mainstream democratic party platform.... I honestly just about went full on democrat after our lovely brush with 8 years of SHRUB running the country, but then Obama came in.... and within 9 months I was ACHING for the days of that crazy idiot shrub and his robot face shooting dark overlord dick cheney VP of doom.

stormcell

They didn't just "let millions of low skill jobs go over seas" by accident, they signed an agreement called the "Lima Declaration of 1975" and allow millions of low skill jobs go over seas". Perhaps they didn't understand that those 30% would undercut the remaining 70%.

I guess my point was that it was a situation that the US Government could have manipulated, can still manipulate anyway they desire. People should not blame industry.