Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

Willtell
Metaphysical has come to mean something spooky or Paranormal but it is like radio waves to us now. In the past we would think that what we view today as normal would be metaphysical.

I think belief in metaphysical means belief in what is physically unseen to us presently.

This gets to the ignorance of science in that they don’t even realize that their science is confirmation of spiritual theory!
As the ignorant believers don't realize that their religion confirms science!

For example: the first pillar of Islam is NOT belief in God
It is belief in the UNSEEN!

Pretty much agreed.

Science forgets it was birthed by philosophy. Philosophy forgets it was birthed by Aristotelean metaphysics. One day it will all come around again I'm guessing.

I just want to reiterate here (so it's not just lost in the thread)...

It seems from all we've discussed (and our individual researches) that the 'key' seems to be something along the lines of:

'Belief plus strong 'emotion' (especially fear) equals 'energy' that the "Control System" likes...
So, when a supernatural 'story' starts generating belief (attached to emotion) the 'System' is attracted and then starts manifesting various phenomena (from fairies in olden times to ufos today) in order to propagate and spread the 'belief'....

I just realized, this also ties in the function of myth and legend ("story") in societal consciousness...
I think Gut had a bit about the 'power' of 'narrative' in his Aviary thread...

reply to post by lostgirl


I've only made it through half of the above linked post but I have to say that knowing and having spent many, many hours and, in some cases several days with the people who are discussed in this thread (Obviously, some more than others), the linked post is the best synopsis of them I've read yet...



Springer...

reply to post by Willtell

That was very nicely put!!

I would like to add that among some theosophists, it is conjectured that it's not 'necessarily' necessary to actually believe, it's possible that merely being 'willing' to believe is enough...(then too, in my own experience, being "willing to believe" eventually led to 'actual' belief).

reply to post by Springer

Wow, I'm glad you liked it! It almost didn't get written - I hate writing, and I knew the post was going to be long, because I couldn't stand to link the book without thoroughly expressing my thoughts on it...

So, I don't suppose you have any 'connections' that could get us a visit from Jacque Vallee?


Or maybe you could just get him the message that one of your ATS members is pretty sure she's figured out a way that his "Control System" could be tested....I haven't put it in the thread yet, because it's complicated and I don't feel like writing the whole thing out yet...

reply to post by lostgirl


Write it and post it, I'll guarantee you he will read it. If he has any response to it I promise I'll post it here. Best I can do.

Springer
Write it and post it, I'll guarantee you he will read it. If he has any response to it I promise I'll post it here. Best I can do.

So does that mean Doc Jock is already reading here, or only that you'll direct him here dependent on future content ala any "control system" ideas?

Didn't know you knew Jacques Vallee, too, Springer. You're everywhere like "Kilroy" in WW II.

reply to post by The GUT


I seriously doubt Jacques is reading this thread, but he might be, I haven't thought to ask him. That said, if lostgirl writes up her analysis/analogy of his control theory I will definitely shoot it to him. He may or may not respond to it, it has always depended on how interesting he finds the work.

WRT your other question, when you're an owner of one of the biggest outlets for this stuff on the interwebs you meet everyone interested eventually, like all things in life some of them become friends just because of mutual interest and respect (think Kit Green, George Knapp, Colm Kelleher, Hal Puthoff, Jim Marrs, Richard Dolan, Nick Redfern, Stanton Friedman, etc...) Some stay aloof, and some just hate you (those are mostly the charlatans and I'm FINE with that)... It's just a side effect of the profession.

I turn my back for a couple of days and you all explode into action, and well done all, you seem to have coalesced the general themes of the discussion, achieving a focus of some sort. A few definitions of what Vallee means by 'control system' have been posted, personally, I like this one...

In The Invisible College (E.P. Dutton, 1975) Vallee posits the idea of a "control system." UFOs and related phenomena are "the means through which man's concepts are being rearranged." Their ultimate source may be unknowable, at least at this stage of human development; what we do know, according to Vallee, is that they are presenting us with continually recurring "absurd" messages and appearances which defy rational analysis but which nonetheless address human beings on the level of myth and imagination.

"When I speak of a control system for planet earth," he says, " I do not want my words to be misunderstood: I do not mean that some higher order of beings has locked us inside the constraints of a space-bound jail, closely monitored by psychic entities we might call angels or demons. I do not propose to redefine God. What I do mean is that mythology rules at a level of our social reality over which normal political and intellectual action has no power…."

www.ufoevidence.org...

Where I have proposed that corporatism/capitalism is the primary control (belief) system in the 'West', in that context, taking the phrase as bolded by me above, it is this, the other, primal or mundus imaginalis, control system, that Vallee defines and has been defined by others, is 'seeking' to rearrange. It is also that 'rearrangement' for reasons that should be obvious, that the likes of the Military-Industrial Complex and the Corporationism that it operates with in accordant symbiosis, seek to subvert, or redirect to their own aims.

In terms of the control system that Vallee seeks to define, and which has been discussed in various terms over the last few pages in relation to consciousness...from Henri Corbin's essay, 'Mundis Imaginalis'...

1. We are no longer participants in a traditional culture; we live in a scientific civilization that is extending its control, it said, even to images. It is commonplace today to speak of a "civilization of the image" (thinking of our magazines, cinema, and television). But one wonders whether, like all commonplace this does not conceal a radical misunderstanding, a complete error. For instead of the image being elevated to the level of a world that would be proper to it, instead of it appearing invested with a symbolic function, leading to an internal sense, there is above all a reduction of the image to the level of sensory perception pure and simple, and thus a definitive degradation of the image. Should it not be said, therefore, that the more successful this reduction is, the more the sense of the imaginal is lost, and the more we are condemned to producing only the imaginary?

2. In the second place, all imagery, the scenic perspective of a tale like the voyage to the Green Island, or the sudden encounter with the Imam in an unknown oasis-would all this be possible without the absolutely primary and irreducible, objective, initial fact (Urphanomen) of a world of image-archetypes or image-sources whose origin is nonrational and whose incursion into our world is unforeseeable, but whose postulate compels recognition?

3. In the third place, is it not precisely this postulate of the objectivity of the imaginal world that is suggested to us, or imposed on us, by certain forms or certain symbolic emblems (hermetic, kabbalistic; or mandalas) that have the quality of effecting a magic display of mental images, such that they assume an objective reality?

hermetic.com...

...then comparing that to what Vallee has to say...

The New Age and the parapsychology communities interpreted my conclusion to mean that UFOs are devas from the dream world - that they are not physical, or that the physical aspect is unimportant. In truth, I think we are dealing with something that is both technological and psychic, and seems to be able to manipulate other dimensions.

I don't have a good explanation for the question of why the technology seems to appear in a form that uses images from our own unconscious. I'd be kidding if I said that I understand that. There are cases of repeated observations where the phenomenon begins by being amorphous and then starts matching the expectations of the witnesses. There are two ways to deal intellectually with that: One is to say it's a phenomenon of the brain which is very good at reading recognizable images in amorphous things like clouds and ink blots. So, perhaps the witnesses are getting used to this phenomenon and are starting to read things into it. But that's not the only explanation. It may be that the phenomenon itself is using our reactions to it in order to turn into something that we expect or understand.

www.ourstrangeplanet.com...

I certainly see a concordance here...and, in the above, where Vallee uses the term 'manipulate' in this context, that this should not be taken in the negative...that he is referring to it in the sense of a skill set, the ability to employ and utilise dimensional reality to communicate/interact with our own.

KilgoreTrout
I certainly see a concordance here...and, in the above, where Vallee uses the term 'manipulate' in this context, that this should not be taken in the negative...that he is referring to it in the sense of a skill set, the ability to employ and utilise dimensional reality to communicate/interact with our own.

Great post. From FS II:

I proposed to attack the UFO system by moving upstream along its own feedback loop. I explained to Kit how the topology of a control system worked and why we could try to affect it, even if we didn't yet know the nature of the actual agent (extraterrestrial, ultra-dimensional, collective unconscious, human manipulation, etc…)

Wouldn't to "move upstream" against it's own feedback loop--especially taking into account the mention that the phenomenon might be of the collective unconscious--refer, at least partially, to looping information to people?

If so, how?

From the C2C interview:

…In the 1990s I tried to create sort of an official thing like the ranch in Utah [Skinwalker Ranch]. This was of course before the events at the ranch. I tried to create a hot spot of information where I was hoping to sort of attract the phenomenon to be able to record it better. And it didn't give the results I was hoping for. It's not something you can just decide to engage with - at least I haven't found a way to do it. …

A "hotspot of information," he said. I'd sure like to know some details of Jacques "1990s" experiment and if there is anything in the ufology/parapsychology literature attached to it.

The main point would still seem to be that human consciousness is a part of the loop and thusly--to try the experiment--human consciousness would have to be somehow manipulated wouldn't it?

Maybe there's some clues in his mention of the details surrounding Fatima?

A good example of that is Fatima. The apparitions witnessed at Fatima did not start in 1917. They started two years before. Some of the same kids were involved, and there were also other witnesses. What they saw was a globe of light.

Then they saw a globe of light with some type of being inside. Then they started calling the being an angel, and then the angel started communicating with them and gave them a prayer. It developed in stages, and culminated in 1917, but even then the virgin Mary wasn't seen by everyone who was present.

www.ourstrangeplanet.com...

The GUT

KilgoreTrout
I certainly see a concordance here...and, in the above, where Vallee uses the term 'manipulate' in this context, that this should not be taken in the negative...that he is referring to it in the sense of a skill set, the ability to employ and utilise dimensional reality to communicate/interact with our own.

Great post. From FS II:

I proposed to attack the UFO system by moving upstream along its own feedback loop. I explained to Kit how the topology of a control system worked and why we could try to affect it, even if we didn't yet know the nature of the actual agent (extraterrestrial, ultra-dimensional, collective unconscious, human manipulation, etc…)

Wouldn't to "move upstream" against it's own feedback loop--especially taking into account the mention that the phenomenon might be of the collective unconscious--refer, at least partially, to looping information to people?

If so, how?

From the C2C interview:

…In the 1990s I tried to create sort of an official thing like the ranch in Utah [Skinwalker Ranch]. This was of course before the events at the ranch. I tried to create a hot spot of information where I was hoping to sort of attract the phenomenon to be able to record it better. And it didn't give the results I was hoping for. It's not something you can just decide to engage with - at least I haven't found a way to do it. …

A "hotspot of information," he said. I'd sure like to know some details of Jacques "1990s" experiment and if there is anything in the ufology/parapsychology literature attached to it.

The main point would still seem to be that human consciousness is a part of the loop and thusly--to try the experiment--human consciousness would have to be somehow manipulated wouldn't it?

Maybe there's some clues in his mention of the details surrounding Fatima?

A good example of that is Fatima. The apparitions witnessed at Fatima did not start in 1917. They started two years before. Some of the same kids were involved, and there were also other witnesses. What they saw was a globe of light.

Then they saw a globe of light with some type of being inside. Then they started calling the being an angel, and then the angel started communicating with them and gave them a prayer. It developed in stages, and culminated in 1917, but even then the virgin Mary wasn't seen by everyone who was present.

www.ourstrangeplanet.com...

edit on 24-2-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Memes would be one way to move upstream.

I'd also like to know more about what Jacques did at Skinwalker Ranch. I know very little of his involvement there, but FSII tells us that he and Hynek knew about the Unitah Basin back in the 1970's.

[quote=lostgirl]Vallee never worked for any government agency. He was never with the CIA, NSA, or any other 'alphabet' guys. He worked for SRI on projects which were then later taken over by or utilized by various governmental departments.....

I'm not so certain. He certainly moved with a very odd bunch of Alphabet Agency characters...and Hynek apparently gave Bennewitz the NSA-modified computer... My hunch is that he was involved, but his heart wasn't in it.

One thing I would like to learn, from Vallee or Kit Green, are the 'protocols' they worked out to attempt to manipulate the control system. They might not have managed to bend it to their will, but if they know how to trigger some kind of interaction (ie a UFO flap) - well, it would merit investigation.

1ofthe9
One thing I would like to learn, from Vallee or Kit Green, are the 'protocols' they worked out to attempt to manipulate the control system. They might not have managed to bend it to their will, but if they know how to trigger some kind of interaction (ie a UFO flap) - well, it would merit investigation.

It seems as if they reported failing at this at Skinwalker Ranch, but I do like the idea of a Github or a python script for generating phenomena! We're verging into technomancy again, I think...

Vallee seemed to report much more success by investigating flaps in person, in a timely fashion.

Waiting for Forbidden Science III with bated breath, here...

I was hoping earlier that Vallee was reading some of this stuff.

He might come and post:

I'M NOT IN THE CIA G_D____T

Springer
reply to post by lostgirl

 

Write it and post it, I'll guarantee you he will read it. If he has any response to it I promise I'll post it here. Best I can do.

So, everyone, I sincerely apologize, because this post is going to be very long and (to you all) somewhat repetitive...

....But Springer 'invited' me to write out my idea (regardless how long) for a "Control System" experiment, and unfortunately, it is quite complicated.

(For brevity I am referring to Jacque Vallee's "Control System" as - the System)

Thru quite a bit of synchronicity, a great deal of reading, and much pondering over it all, I have come to feel somewhat certain of a way to effectively 'experiment' with the System...
One primary difficulty in seeking to do such an experiment has been the question of how the System relates to consciousness...

...The answer, I think, is that the System engages with consciousness thru belief...it 'wants' both to utilize and to create belief.

For example: Someone tells a (supposedly true) supernatural story. If people begin to believe in the story, the System is 'attracted' to their belief and then begins to manifest phenomena accordingly in order to propagate and spread the 'belief'...
( I have no speculations as to 'why'..Perhaps it 'feeds' on belief in some way?)

This would tie in to myth, legend, and the importance of 'story' to humanity and could also explain the shift in phenomena from 'fairies' to (with the advent of modern times) UFOs...

All that said, I don't think that 'mere' belief is sufficient to attract the System...there are other components.

In simplest terms, I would say that the belief must be accompanied by a degree of 'passion' (in the sense of excitement, a thrill).

This would explain why supernatural phenomena primarily manifests in accordance with frightening 'stories'/'beliefs'...

The next component is difficult to explain...It has to do with 'communication' of belief...i.e. it's not enough for someone to tell the story, and people to believe in it. The story (and it's elements) must also be continually talked over, discussed, conjectured about -
as new elements (whether made up, imagined, or genuinely manifested phenomena) are gradually 'introduced', they must consistently increase (or at least maintain) the titillation of the story, increase people's desire to discuss it repeatedly, whether in part or in whole...

Now days, this is effectively done thru the internet, but I think that it may only be effective as written 'communication', because there are such vast numbers of 'believers' online for any given, phenomena attracting/manifesting, 'story'...

For the purposes of experiment, as there would be a limited number of 'believers', I think that verbal 'communication of belief' would be required...

- - Let me say here that it is thru a personal experience (albeit on a very, very small scale) that I came to the above conclusion. I will be happy to share it but not at this time, due to the already extreme length of the post...


So! Finally, we come to a general outline of the experiment I've conceived:

(Ugh, don't know how to fit it to words...let's try a narrative)

Dr. V wishes to run an experiment with the intention of attracting and perhaps affecting the "Control System" he has posited. He wishes to incorporate the above speculations. Here is what he will need:

Dr. V must put together a group of people (including himself) no less than six, no greater than eight, ideally seven...The experiment will need to run at minimum six weeks, but two to three months would more likely see results.

In putting his group together, certain parameters must be followed:

They must all (including himself) either already be acquainted to a degree of friendship, or they must be willing to 'open' themselves to becoming acquainted and developing a degree of friendship within the first two (or so) weeks of the experiment..
(The reasoning here is that there must be a feeling of 'relationship' within the group as a whole and among them as individuals).

Each member of the group must be open-minded to the degree of believing in Dr. V's work and having the ability (the willingness) to 'generate' in themselves 'belief' in whatever particular (supernatural) 'story' Dr. V decides to 'invest' the experiment in..

Dr. V must choose his 'story' (one he also is 'able' to believe), tell it to the group, steer 'conversation' in directions commiserate with belief, encourage the group to share thoughts or experiences (with some exaggeration, if need be), which aid in propagating the group's belief...

All of this 'talk' should (as much as possible) be done in person or by telephone (actually in my experience, we had never even met in person, it was all by phone - having become acquainted online), though after the first week (depending how 'developed' into friendship the group is), it's not necessary for the whole group to converse at the same time...
I would say an effective amount of 'communication of belief' could be reached with at least two (in various combinations) members of the group talking by phone for a minimum of 30 minutes each day...

Once the group develops sufficient degree of 'relationship'/friendship and as they invest further in 'belief' in the 'story', members of the group should keep vigilantly aware of their 'environment' at all times, watching for even the tiniest 'oddities' of experience (whether truly supernatural or not), introducing such happenings (with somewhat an air of excitement) to the group - telling one or two members who 'spread' the tale (much in the way that gossips spread the latest 'dirt')...

It is important that these group members be able to fully 'buy into' all of the above, they must relate to each other and to the 'story' very genuinely...they can't be merely 'play-acting'...


I feel strongly that if the group can carry off (and carry thru) this experiment as if it is genuinely their 'reality', that within four to six weeks, the "Control System" will be attracted and 'phenomena' will begin manifesting....

Unfortunately, anyone who decides to run such an experiment will have to take it from here...I haven't a clue what should come next...

ATS members:
Many thanks for your patience!! We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread..

Willtell
I was hoping earlier that Vallee was reading some of this stuff.

He might come and post:

I'M NOT IN THE CIA G_D____T

Classic! I can't stop laughing.

John Alexander made some comment about Doc Jock's intelligence connections/work in his recent book. I'll find it here in a bit.

In the meantime, I'm with Autograf: Can't wait for Forbidden Science III and will pre-order if it's ever promised on Amazon.

I have both Fastwalker: A Novel & Stratagem in hardcover, maybe I'll give those a reread as well and dig for anything he might have fictionalized that might have some bearing.

reply to post by The GUT

Do you have any other current fictionalized/ hypothetical gems of interest I might be able to pick up? I'm still getting rid of reading material from the vampyre thread and am quite low on new material.


Replied to your u2u for some reason it did not show up as mail the first time around. :/

Seriously, I think Vallee was and is too smart NOT to have had a dalliance with the CIA.
Look at his career, textbook and perfect.

If you play ball with them your career is made, but of course if you rebel and dis them you are in serious trouble.

Look at Vallee he talks a good game but he has never left the reservation of the elite and his career testifies to this…it’s too perfect.

And the thing that connects him to the big boys is J Hynek the guy who brought our old friend pAUL Bennewitz the super computer.

I WONDER WHO WAS THE COMPUTER EXPERT TO COOK THAT UP?!

Autograf

Brotherman

1ofthe9
Brotherman - I'd be interested in seeing your stuff. I think you've reached similar conclusions to myself on this stuff.

What if the phenomena changed 'shape' again - what are people seeing instead of flying saucers?

So far the only thing that I have concluded in regards to UFO's at least is simply that what we are seeing is an elaborate fabrication (lie) of reality. Where it comes from, whats controlling it, why its doing what it does, are all very mysterious and spooky things that are unknown to me. This is the only certainty I hold and maintain and thus far have not seen anything to convince me otherwise.

It is a fabrication which does have measureable effects in our reality though, in terms of physical traces, medical effects, etc. Perhaps "projection" is more precise.

How would you suggest these effects get measured? I am still more privy to the idea that anything left behind in terms of what is considered evidence is either by elusive recording or something of the likes by someone far off or left on purpose which is left to make no sense what so ever. I wouldn't imagine that UFOs study humanity so I don't think it needs to actually do medical precedures for anything other then to create a story. They bend and shape things out side of our "known" laws of science I cannot fathom how we measure the powers this phenomenon exorcises. I think it is all very spooky.

corsair00
Coast to Coast AM - October 24 2010 - Jacques Vallee with George Knapp
It's not something you can just decide to engage with - at least I haven't found a way to do it. But it's worth continuing to try because there seems to be a form of consciousness behind it that is extremely subtle, has a great sense of humor, is completely ruthless -

Does anyone else wonder if when he says "ruthless", it means 'malevolent'?

reply to post by lostgirl


Maybe this helps



"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."
- Dr. Jacques Vallee, Confrontations, p. 13

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."
-Dr. Jacques Vallee citing the extensive research of Bertrand Meheust [Science-Fiction et Soucoupes Volantes (Paris, 1978); Soucoupes Volantes et Folklore (Paris, 1985)], in Confrontations, p. 146, 159-161

L